Let's discuss manga as a medium

Let's discuss manga as a medium.
What are your thoughts/gripes?

The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints that do not hit the full potential of it.

I see it as a mean to tell a story in a more visual fashion but most mangaka don't give 2 shits about improving their writing and focus too heavily on the art first and foremost.

And some don't even focus on coherent artistic story telling and instead dabble into something more specific, like design and pushing the peculiarities forth.

Good example is Nihei, he's an architect and he jerks off to making architecture and perspective, his character design is beyond average, and his stories very unpolished and mostly are just a chaotic stream of thoughts a-la every freshman trying to write his first course paper and getting lost.

I think the ideal approach for manga would be to have what you see some examples of but not nearly enough is when the writer and the artist are two separate entities.

Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.

Case and point don't try to hone everything a little bit or you risk not truly achieving something worthy in anything at all.

That is at least what I think.

Needs to be more gyaru manga.

Alright then.

Manga is a shit medium.

>if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better

That's how it works though.
There are like 10 different artists for outlines, inking and coloring.
And a whole crew of writers.

It's just writing + drawing.
But usually gets no good things from either.

Mainstream American comics which are made on a corporate assembly line are usually bland, middle-of-the-road products.

The best American comics usually have as few creators working on them as possible. They're the passionate vision of a single individual or duo, not a series of designed-by-committee compromises.

>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards,
You mean like Asterix, which was made by 2 people? That's totally unlike manga like Golgo13, which has it's basic story written by one guy, the specifics worked out by the nominal writer, and is drawn by a team of 6 or more people.

Not to mention that manga sales are hilariously above and beyond western comic sales. One Piece alone outsells all of Marvel and DC.

A lot of comics in the past few decades were made by rather large team collaborations instead of a mangaka + office of assistants, event if that at all.

Western comics are cancer though

There are people on Sup Forums who say that manga is cancer. They are just as wrong as you are.

>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
They already do that, most mangaka have assistants or work in groups like CLAMP.

That said, poor writing often comes about because of the extremely tight deadlines and cliches are easier than genuinely creative storytelling.

That's not even touching on the problems rampant with the Big Two, i.e. pandering, corporate mandates, jerking employees around, copyright issues, "canon," ect.

>The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints that do not hit the full potential of it.
This statement sound like there's "one TRUE potential must be done this way" autism. Reign it back man.

>I see it as a mean to tell a story in a more visual fashion but most mangaka don't give 2 shits about improving their writing and focus too heavily on the art first and foremost.
Some of them just want to draw and that's not wrong.
On any given book for the big two it's usually Writer, Penciller, Inker, Letter, Colorist. Sometimes more, but I've heard that penciller and inker are getting lumped together these days.
Concrete and a Contract with God are some good shit, lemme tell you. If your idea of American comics is Marvel and DC, it's forgivable to think American comics are trash, but there's a lot of stuff outside them that's worth reading.

>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
No thanks, I like it to be personal to that one author or team of artist and writer.

If they're no good I'll just give it a miss

This

One of the best things about manga is that if a crazy son of a bitch has a good idea he can do it all on his own and make a manga about it, whether it be self published, a oneshot in a magazine, a web manga or even a regularly published thing. Manga is very diverse and free compared to a lot of other media, and yes I'm aware it pens itself in with cliches and generic kinds of stories and characters; but the manga that don't have vast potential.

>One Piece alone outsells all of Marvel and DC.
To be completely fair, DC and Marvel have been selling horribly recently, mostly due to very "questionnable" editorial decisions.
>tfw every new Astérix or Blake & Mortimer album released always beats even Naruto in terms of sales ; even reissues of Tintin do
>tfw your local comic book industry managed to resist the burgerification and the tidal wave of shounen-invasion

For every one good comic there are 100 making much more money. I've read comics. I know what's good and bad. The western comic industry puts out cancer. I don't know why you would argue this since a cursory glance is enough to realize how bad of a state the western medium is in. Pretending it's not bad is precisely why it's so bad.
The manga industry is much healthier than the comic industry and that ain't changing anytime soon. Also take this shit thread to Sup Forums.

I'm not convinced by the new Asterix team, but at least they're better than the last few issues that came before.

100 shit ones*

>For every one good comic there are 100 making much more money
Just like manga?
Or just about literally everything else?

What is Sturgeon's Revelation?

What you said is true of manga, TV, movies, books, and so on. Guess everything's cancer, then.

Oh no, X makes more money than Y! Might as well give up on Y because "Western comics are cancer". After all, it's all about money.

Are you sure that you're not just talking about the American industry, and ignoring the rest of the Western world?

Are you sure that you're not just talking about two publishers and one genre, instead of an entire medium?

this pretty much
the train of thought of "it's all shit anyway" doesn't lead anywhere

if you're not trying to find good things they won't just appear out of nowhere

if you're not a part of the mass appeal then guess what fucko, get on working instead of complaining

Stop trying to compare Manga to western comics.

They're in totally different situations and target totally different ranges of people.

The pure volume of manga published allows it to come in flavors for literally everyone ranging from literal kiddies, to high schoolers, to college students, to your fucking mom and filthy gaijin. And the doujin community is alive and well and actually of respectable quality and pushes out real future artists.

Comic books come in "ye old capeshit/newspaper comic" flavor or "hipster flavor of the month iteration of capeshit/newspaper comic (WE SWEAR THIS WRITER IS BETTER EDITION)" flavor or "neo-hipster beyond capeshit discussing edgy "philosophy" and "politics"" flavor.

>Comic books come in "ye old capeshit/newspaper comic" flavor or "hipster flavor of the month iteration of capeshit/newspaper comic (WE SWEAR THIS WRITER IS BETTER EDITION)" flavor or "neo-hipster beyond capeshit discussing edgy "philosophy" and "politics"" flavor.
>I don't actually read comics but this is what I think they are

Still better than Uderzo's solo works and some of the Spirou continuations.

Isn't that what I just said?

>2017
>still no manga board
butt why?

Still denying it? Fine whatever I'm not going to get into this retarded argument because you're always going to deny deny deny.

Ratios of good to shit exist you know right?

Comics is a cancer filled medium much more cancerous than manga. The discussion of it does not belong on this board. The industry is shit and not fixing itself.

Oh yes I'm sorry the comics medium is a robust medium and there's definitely nothing wrong with it.
I've read plenty of comics. I'm well aware of the amount of good comics that exist. I'm telling you the ratio of good to shit is really bad. Anyway this thread does not belong here.
I bet people like you also argue western animation is in a healthy spot.
Just go back to Sup Forums if you want to discuss your fucking comics and how the comics industry definitely is not in a bad or unhealthy spot.

No one compared comics to manga, you just imagined that
also don't talk about something you've never seen before

My dream:

/ac/ - Anime & Cartoons
/com/ - Comics & Manga

How about no. There's a reason there separated. If you can't see why go back to Sup Forums

Fuck you, and fuck your 1s.

WORST SEXTS I'VE EVER SEEN

...

The fact that you don't know the difference between "medium" and "industry" indicates that you don't know what you're talking about.

Manga and comics are the same medium.

Yes, but it is more true when I say it because my opinions are facts.

wasted

The notion that a writer and artist as separate people would inherently produce better work than one person doing both is absurd and I don't understand why anybody believes this.

>western animation is in a healthy spot
Technically speaking big companies are heaps and bounds beyond in animation compared to your every day TV anime, there are exceptions but they are few and sparse.

Japan was way ahead of its time at one point but then it rapidly crashed and now cosmic years away from disney and pixar.

>Comics is a cancer filled medium much more cancerous than manga.
Hahaha, no. Manga has a higher overall volume, but there is just as much cancerous bullshit. Tons of anthologies are padded out with literal garbage, and shounen as a whole is as bad as cape comics. To say nothing of the incessant waifufagging bullshit that plagues manga.
This.

>I SWEAR THERE ARE GOOD COMICS
I'm not saying there aren't user, but lets face it. The western comic industry isn't exactly keeping pace with manga output. The sheer volume of absolute shit is probably greater for manga, but the volume of gems is higher for the same reason.

How many new issues of good comic books can you read in a month? Meanwhile, how many manga series do you think you can follow?

That said, I'm not saying you have to pick one. Read both.

I just find statements like " go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required." to be pure pants on head retarded.

Literally the OP, you faggot.

Because that's true for most cases when that ever happened on a statistical level?
Just look around, not so hard to understand.

>Literally the OP, you faggot

>the more people you got in there the better
Wooooooow, mangaka are all solo workers and the notion of having more people work on a manga is foreign to you?

Are you actually retarded or just pretending?

Oh whatever I've been referring to the industry except for like one sentence the entire time. Anyway I'd argue the medium is in a bad spot as well because comics creators are generally shit heads. Again many more shitheads than the amount of manga creator shitheads. There's a reason a majority of people on this board read manga and not comics. You might be one of the fags that say "I transcend this" but the truth is you just haven't realized how different the two are. Literally go back to Sup Forums.

Still better than the comics industry.

>Big companies are heaps and bounds beyond in animation
Prove it. And don't compare a movie to an anime. Also even if it is the stories are so bogged down in the west it's ridiculous. Even when the animation is well done the story is rarely above mediocre.

OP was wrong about how manga works, and OP was wrong about how comics work, but you were wrong too when you said that nobody was comparing manga to comics.

>He thinks having drawing assistants and having half a dozen writers is the same thing.
Alrighty.

>Anyway I'd argue the medium is in a bad spot as well because comics creators are generally shit heads. Again many more shitheads than the amount of manga creator shitheads.
But they are the same medium.

So again, you have proven that you don't know what you're talking about.

my gripe is that they aren't animated

>But they're the same mediums
Sure but the fact is cultural differences make their takes on the medium so different from one another that they might as well be different mediuma

>Still better than the comics industry.
>I'm just going to refuse to acknowledge rampant problems and cancerous bullshit when it's something I like

Not really, no. Unless you don't know what a medium is.

It's just words and pictures mixed together. What next? Japanese paintings are a different medium than American paintings? Japanese novels are a different medium than American novels?

Fine fine this is a semantic argument so I will concede since it does not matter

No.

God no.

Fuck you.

The way it works right now is just fine because anyone can pick a pen and release something. Whether good or bad, the audience will be the one to judge.

If it has weak art, so long as it's entertaining it can still pass : see OPM and Mob Psycho.

If it has shit story, you can still enjoying it for the art.

Ideally it will have both in good amounts. The more barriers you put between the creator and his creation (other artists, "additional staff" god knows what else) , the less the finished work will resemble what the creator had in mind. One artist and one writer teaming up together is the perfect sweetspot, any more than that and it's too many chefs in the kitchen.

Assistants are also fine I suppose, but I'd honestly allow them more for their sake because they get to learn/improve from professionals and then proceed to release their own works. (Like Nihei's assistant starting Dorohedoro)

>x culture needs to be more like y culture

Slap yourself for ever thinking that.

Nope I recognize problems in the manga industry they're just not as bad as the comics industry. I don't know why that's so hard to conceptualize for people still arguing with me.

It really says something when it's like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge a simple universal fact...

It's because you're wrong. They're DIFFERENT problems, but they're just as bad.

>I don't know why that's so hard to conceptualize for people still arguing with me.
Because you've been making nonsensical statements and using words whose definitions you don't seem to understand.

So, which comics industry are you talking about anyway? Be specific.

You're not really addressing the point I'm trying to make though. Their takes on the medium are incredibly different which is why their is a distinction to begin with (manga vs comics). It would be stupid for you to deny that no?

What is manga's take on the medium? What is western comics' take on the medium?

Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has would make it identical to the western industry.

Wouldn't it be logical to assume that by doing that, you'll invite the problems the western industry has? It's not rocket science. The manga industry has its problems, but not having several artists working on a single series is NOT one of them.

if you have infinite amount of time, then working separately or working on both wouldn't make a difference. But manga schedule is pretty damn constrict, being able to focus on one thing would naturally improve the quality of your work.

>They're equally bad
Leave

Like what? The argument that the comics industry and manga industry are equally bad/good? That's a nonsensical argument. The argument that there are more good manga than comics?
Please point to the nonsensical.

American and European. Before you say the European industry is healthy post hard numbers because I have a lot of trouble believing it.

>Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has
>you
There are 17 people in this thread. Who are you addressing? Which "problems" do you take issue with?

Manga: Black and White (sometimes slightly colored) with a generally distinctive style that you can pinpoint.
Western comics: Colored with some black and white. Generally either cartoony or realistic with very little in-between. Generally less diversity in terms of story types.

You can find contradictions to both of these but they are general trends that put them into distinct groups

How does it feel being a pretentious piece of shit?

>Please point to the nonsensical.
That you use "industry" and "medium" interchangeably.

>American and European.
So you're conflating two different industries.

>Before you say the European industry is healthy post hard numbers because I have a lot of trouble believing it.
Right, because it's sales that matter, not quality.

So they're the same medium. A novel is a novel regardless of whether it's in first-person or third-person. Style doesn't change the medium.

All this time you've wasted trying to cover up for your mistakes...

>Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has would make it identical to the western industry.
I never said anything about fixing them. I said they're THERE. Not to mention how flawed that statement is.

> The manga industry has its problems, but not having several artists working on a single series is NOT one of them.
Not even the problems I was referring to. See also
>Tons of anthologies are padded out with literal garbage, and shounen as a whole is as bad as cape comics. To say nothing of the incessant waifufagging bullshit that plagues manga.
The idea that that manga is on the whole somehow better is a farce.

I ceded that point because I realized you're right and I should use medium but I will say that industry is not the right word for I'm trying to describe when I do refer to medium. I guess a better word would be style.

Sales don't matter but they show the health of an industry. A healthy industry generally has healthy comics coming out of it because there's more incentive for artists to participate and find works to be inspired by. Western comics have an unhealthy industry that inspire shit artists

Kill yourself.

They are the same medium yes. I've apologized for this mistake already. Style does make it distinctive and I have trouble believing that you would confuse say an American novel with a Japanese novel.

Fuck off.

I binge read manga and it's suffering waiting for updates, but it doesn't feel that bad for anime. Don't know why.

Should not use medium*

1 chapter last like 5 minutes
1 episode last 20 minutes

I commend you for acknowledging that you were wrong, which is a very rare thing to see on Sup Forums.

But consider it from my point of view: From the very beginning of this discussion, you've been approaching this discussion from a fundamentally flawed standpoint, and your standpoint hasn't changed even after being proven wrong on some of its basic elements. It doesn't inspire confidence in the idea that you know anything about non-Japanese comics other than Marvel and DC.

Right, one is in English and one isn't.

Your post is bad and your opinion is juvenile.

The very specific elements that you decry mangaka for are what defines their work for fans. You may not like certain things, but what you think and like really doesn't matter because there are other people who enjoy it greatly.

There are some great collaborative comics, but it is not an inherently superior method and in many ways I would argue that it more often is the downfall of a work.

>The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints
This sums up everything about your deeply flawed character.

Shitty authors.
The author will come up with a great premise and carry it for a while. Shit starts getting interesting.
The author will reach a threshold in what he can do with a limited cast.
Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further
Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further

Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further

The popularity of the manga dips and they make a decision to cut it, so author slaps on a meaningless ending that resolves nothing.

RIP Sup Forums

What's fundamentally wrong with my argument? If I cede the fact that medium was the wrong choice of words what part of my argument fails?
I know plenty outside of marvel and dc. The fact that marvel and dc dominate the market and inspire the majority of comic artists (even more of obscure) is a large reason why comics are cancer. Sure jump and shonens have a huge market in the manga industry but the difference is that shonen is a much healthier genre than the marvel/DC superhero genre. Don't take this as me saying "only the big ones matter". That's stupid. All I'm saying is that the big ones have an influence on mostly everything that is made.


Nope. There are cultural differences between the two nations that pops in how stories are told, the langauge used (and I mean like figures of speech not the written langauge), and the stories themselves. Different cultures are different you know?

Those are terrible summaries. Here's a good one

Manga: Japanese comics. Generally printed in greyscale. Asymmetrical panel layouts tend to emphasize motion, making the visual pacing markedly different from western comics. A massive industry, with many different genres of work for many different age groups. Mangaka tend to draw and write their own original works, supported by assistants and an editor.

Comics: Western comics. Typically printed in color. Primarily consists of episodic Superhero stories or gag comics. Panel layouts are more static, generally with more dialog per page. Smaller than the Japanese manga industry, with a heavier focus towards marketing to children and teenage males. Comics are generally made by committee, with a hired writer and artist working within the framework set by the company for established franchises.

Those are better summaries I agree.

Stop reading battle manga exclusively?

>shounen
>genre

>What's fundamentally wrong with my argument?
Well, let's lay all our cards on the table:

>Western comics are cancer
Is this true or false?

Is it an accurate statement, or were you exaggerating for the sake of making a shitpost?

After being called out for your shitpost, did you admit that it was a shitpost, or did you attempt to defend your position with flawed arguments (where you are unable to tell the difference between medium, industry and style)?

>marvel and dc dominate the market and inspire the majority of comic artists (even more of obscure) is a large reason why comics are cancer.
They are the majority of sales, but only in America's direct market (specialty shops). Outside of the direct market (in bookstores and online stores), they are not the majority of sales in America. Outside of America, they are not the majority of sales.

And that's only sales. They are not the majority of what is available.

So, yes, you only know Marvel and DC, not comics.

>Primarily consists of episodic Superhero stories or gag comics.
>Comics are generally made by committee, with a hired writer and artist working within the framework set by the company for established franchises.
This is not the case. Marvel and DC make up the minority of comics.

>Comics: Western comics.
No.
What you are describing is Marvel and DC, not even all USA made comics, let alone the whole mass of european comics.

Let's go back to discussing manga.

>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
This is dumb, but are there any good "jam" manga series, where a bunch of different creators take turns making something cool?

Posting a comic because it's the best example of what I'm thinking of.

My dream:

Sup Forums - Anime
/ma/ - Manga

Anime faggots are the worst.

i actually like this idea

kill yourself

That would just create a dead board full of generals, literally useless.

What the fug is habbeningggg

Which board?

/ac/ would be hell but /com/ would be heaven.

Putting anime and manga in the same board was a mistake.

I'd like a manga board but it's not really a division that needs to happen.

I think it is, unless you can ban people who stick to a single medium. People who both read the manga and watch the anime are ok, but people who stick to just one are absolute cancer, especially if the medium they stick to is an adaptation. That usually happens with anime. Somebody makes a manga that's fairly popular, then comes the anime and with it, the autists that only watch the anime and shitpost about it constantly.

The mods say it's too difficult to separate the discussions since so many anime series are just adaptations.

Since we're under new management now I guess we could try our luck again.

...

That, combined with the fact that adaptations sometimes take liberties with the story, is one of the reasons we should separate them.