Did the U.S win the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Did the U.S win the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

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It’s too early to tell.
Afghanistan is more likely than Iraq though.

is this bait?

Fuck what a waste and utterly shameful embarrassment if they didn't. Jesus christ.

Afghanistan, yes. The Taliban was BTFO, al-Qaeda was BTFO, and Osama was killed. The new government in Afghanistan is friendlier to the US and they are no longer an outer heaven for islamic terrorist groups like they were in the 90s. Groups like al-qaeda are all but dead, and even Osamas letters talk about this and how he had no idea on how to fix it. And the taliban was always unpopular, so theres no real love loss for them by the afghan people.

Iraq, in terms of military goals, yeah. Saddams armies were crushed, he was captured, a new interm government was put in place, and Saddam was tried and found guilty and hanged. But the whole purpose of this was because Saddam had WMD and was friendly with al-qaeda, but it turned out this was all bullshit. And then al-qaeda flooded in after he got taken down. and it made the whole situation, which was to combat terrorist groups, worse.

Militarily yes. It was not war, but a confused and costly occupation

Main goals: yes

Osama dead
Saddam dead
WMD making potential gone
Both governments are client states of the US although we lose influence quickly everytime we let off the gas pedal of military aid
Taliban lost most of it's control and all the old leadership is dead

The mission creep goals of making then liberal democracies all failed.

I think we're slowly realizing that Kurdistan would be a more compliant and competent vassal. If we can get them to accept rule of law and modernization, they could become a second Israel for us now that Turkey keeps acting like a shitty client.

Maintaining a military presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan means that America has Iran geographically surrounded, which was the real objective all along. America has never truly forgiven Iran for overthrowing the Shah. It also prevents Russia from getting involved in either country, which contributes to the larger American goal of preventing any possibility of a Russian resurgence. Right now, Russia is a shadow of its former self. America likes having Russia in a state of weakness, and they will do almost anything to keep that going.

>which was the real objective all along
stopped reading there.

The goal of the Iraq war was to depose Saddam Hussein so they obviously won.

You forgot that Iraq was a bulwark against Iran and now it's practically its puppet

The Kurdistan issue is one that I'm torn on. Kurdistan would undoubtedly be a more stable ally in the ME. But then we fall in the trap of a second Israel in the area, one that the US needs to be active with aiding as none of its neighbors would recognize it.

How is there not a Russian resurgence though?

They are more dominant in the Middle East than USA right now.

They lost Afghanistan, Chinks have almost a monopoly on those juicy mineral contracts

> It also prevents Russia from getting involved in either country
Russia and Iran have very good relations though, they both hate the radical Sunni's in the Caucasus

>Chinks have almost a monopoly on those juicy mineral contracts
this just proves all the gay conspiracy tards wrong though, also the fact that they made Iraq into a democractic country and they voted themselves into being an Iranian puppet state. The goal was always to make sure Afghanistan didnt harbor islamic terrorist groups anymore who were constantly attacking america. Bush being a retard and going after Iraq doesnt change this

"Either" referred to Iraq and Afghanistan, not Iran. Iran and Russia are buddies. They have been for a long time, which is part of the reason why the American government hates Iran so much.

>Who were constantly attacking America

America has had a shit ton more terror attacks either directly or inspired after 2001 than before.

If the goal was to stop terrorism, then that's an absolute failure.

They have Assad who they are propping up. Assad who controls a rump state and has very little chance of getting back east of the Euphrates.

US has Egypt as an ally, the Saudis, Israel, has Afghanistan and Iraq requiring their support, and more influence in Pakistan than Russia.

The US also has a lot of influence in Jordan.

Russia just saw it's one client in the region reduced to half it's size and militarily exhausted.

Russian relations with Turkey are just as shit as US ones, but the US has a formal alliance with Turkey through NATO and got the Turks to send troops to Afghanistan.

>The goal was always to make sure Afghanistan didnt harbor islamic terrorist groups
Then they should have fucked Pakistan over too

The Afghanistan War is still going, any war that lasted over 16 years when you are the occupying power can be considered an auto-loss.

>America has had a shit ton more terror attacks either directly or inspired after 2001 than before.
no it hasnt retard. Name ONE(1) terrorist attack on America on the scale of 9/11

>They are more dominant in the Middle East than USA right now.

By what logic? America has amiable relations with Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. At the same time, America maintains a military presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia has Syria and Iran. Last time I checked, 7 is greater than 2.

So China has lost Tibet and America lost the Indian Wars out West?

Iraq is heavily influenced by Iran, recent events might weaken that but when a lot of the power in your government is centered around Shia militias current and former training with fucking Quds Force in some cases, it's a bit of an issue

>which was the real objective all along.
M-muh 4d chess

t. retard

It doesn't have Iran. They are in a relationship of convenience is Syria.

Russia and Iran have every reason to cooperate in Syria, it gives Russia a warm water port not subject to the Dardanelles and Iran gets to put pressure on Israel

Good. Means they have skin in the game and will deploy forces to defend those assets.

Less work for the USA.

Chinks don't have to deploy shit, America and NATO are doing the job for them

Except Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Yemen are all Iranian puppets. Not to mention the large influence of Hezbollah in that area.

They were colossal failures that historians will point to as the start of America's long decline from hegemonic superpower

There's no war currently going on in Tibet and the Indian Wars were a series of wars, these are bad equivalences.

t. idiot.

>More terror attacks don't count if they don't kill as many people

Don't call anybody else retarded. San Bernadino, Orlando, Boston, New York, New Jersey, and Ohio have all had terror attacks either directly related to or inspired by Islamic terrorists and these were all after 2010, near a decade after starting the war with Afghanistan.

They also have little to do with Afghanistan considering the alleged Al-Qaeda network condemn IS as LARPing faggots

Yes, greater K:D ratio.

1/3rd of Lebanon, the Shia side, is. It's a riven country.

Rebels in Yemen control less than half the country.

Assad controls less than half the country.

So yeah, they have parts of the poorest, smallest countries.

That versus Saudi Arabia, who spends more of defense than Russia.

Israel, who has proven their ability to BTFO anyone in the region.

Egypt which has a giant military.

>San Bernadino, Orlando, Boston, New York, New Jersey, and Ohio
all those added up dont equal up to 9/11, and non were planned by networks of al-qaeda. Those were all lone wolf tier things

So Japan was losing against Chiang Kai Shek?

>Al-Qaeda is the official judge of what constitutes Islamic terrorism

Again, if the goal of the wars in the ME was to stop terrorism then it was an absolute failure and the US is still suffering terror attacks at a higher rate than before 2001. But their not harbored in Afghanistan anymore :^)

And? Are you incapable of reading? It was already said body count isn't what's being discussed but the overall number of terror attacks. Especially when the other post said the war in Afghanistan was to stop the groups "constantly attacking America"

So the war has changed the way those attacks are organized and executed but the fact remains the US is now attacked more often than before after a decade of fighting terrorism. That, as a goal, was a failure.

Had they successfully subdued China by the end if it?

Read the rules, faggot

The "War On Terror" was actually about instituting regime change in nations who fostered. aided or abetted terrorist movements, a better question is why the hell Libya was left out

>And? Are you incapable of reading? It was already said body count isn't what's being discussed but the overall number of terror attacks.
youre intentionally being an idiot if you dont realize why the US went after The Islamic Emerite of Afghanistan as a state sponsor of not only terrorism, but the harbored of the most wanted anti-US terrorist organization at the time, and a few muslims chimping out on their own. Every case you brought up was just some dumb niggers with a gun shooting up some place, or making a home made bomb, and none of them were even close to a highly organized plan with millions of dollars behind it and high profile fighters. None of them are close to something like 9/11, or Bojinka, or the US embassy bombings. And if you think the war in afghanistan was a failure because those things like orlando occurered, then you really have no idea what the point of them was in the first place

No. The entire Lebanon not 1/3rd. You are mixing up demographics with politics.

Saudi Arabia spent millions to fail at Yemen. They are mostly influenced by the Iranian backed people.

Poorest smallest countries doesn't matter when all the weapons and riches in the world can't conquer them or beat them. Oh and they're not the smallest countries. Also they are basically surrounding Saudi Arabia now.

fuck you cunt.

No seriously, why the hell is the US still in the middle east?

this is a good thread and probably the only good discussion Sup Forums will ever have on this topic because it isnt infected with underage conspiracy fags. Shut the fuck up

Because it's hard to do sand nigger shit successfully if you lose 90% of your senior leadership every two years.

This is incidentally why all of the terrorist attacks in the US after 9/11 have one or two retards with little to no training.

Afganistan will never be "won". It will fall to the Taliban if a negotiation doesn't happen. Thats why Taliban are not officially a terrorist organization.

Iraq had the biggest military collapse since France 1940 and has become a Iranian puppet so no win there.

Any time I eradicate an ant colony near the house, even if they sting me once or twice, it is a victory. According to Share Blue, the ants gained the victory for stinging me once or twice.

Both have been unmitigated disasters.

Where did this come from?

Our guys are still in Kabul.

They're still in Baghdad.

Shit's too early to call.

Hell the fuck no. If the goal was to stop terrorism, it completely failed. The Taliban literally controls more land in Afghanistan right now than they did pre-2001. The aftermath of the Iraqi invasion gave birth to the strongest terrorist state ISIS. If the goal was to contain Iran, it completely failed. Iran turned Iraq into a puppet state and has successfully resisted America's regime change attempt in Syria. Iran now has also influence in Yemen, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. If the goal was to turn those countries into westernized states than it completely failed, the majority of the people in those countries despise everything America and the West stand for with a passion more than ever. Even former ''Westernized'' states like Turkey have reverted the westernization. Only delusional American patriotic retards unironically think America succeeded in it's objectives. America lost something way more than cannon fodder in those wars, it lost money. These wars have costed America trillions of dollars which ended in America racking debt. Russia and China are the ones currently winning the geopolitical war.

/his/

ya its only been 20 years almost. lets give it more

>The Taliban literally controls more land in Afghanistan right now than they did pre-2001.
They controlled pretty much the entirity of afghanistan before the US led invasion user. This is factually wrong

more recent map. The Taliban controls dick and they are complete retards without any real political clout. They are done

>isreal
>our great middle eastern ally

>win
>opium production increase 4x
depends on your definition of winning

No they didn't retard. They only controlled three quarters of it and the current government is literally a bunch of tribal warlords who fuck little boys and their control outside Kabul is pretty much non existent.

Not to mention both conflicts have effectively bankrupted the United States (both morally and financially) and fatally divided society to the point where Civil War is inevitable.

Got moved for violating the 25 year rule.

You could have said the same thing 15 years ago and you would have been just as right

>clinton bush obama and trump still haven't set an objective win condition
at least they get to shoot back and patrol with bullets

Americunts PAY Afghan and Iraqi warlords to leave them alone.

Well, this thread is now where it belongs.

/h/istorians out!

>tfw that kid's vest is stacked with dynamite

Look at history. No one wins wars in Africa or the Middle East.

You're missing the part where the Taliban effectively rule Northern Pakistan. Which they didn't before 2001.

It's hard to say, because the US never sets clear and measurable goals. Incidentally that is also why they lose the wars.

They did remove Saddam though.

Depends how you define "win".

Have they pacified the country and made it safe for everyone?
No.
Have they kept a permanent state of low=level conflict going to benefit the Militarty-Industrial Complex?
Yes.
Are they expanding and protecting the CIA's narcotics empire?
Yes.
Are they fucking with China's Belt and Road initiative?
Yes.
Are they establishing permanent military bases so they can make a play for Asia's natural resources?
Yes.

>No they didn't retard.
yes they did. You are clearly a dumb conspiracy tard with a weird pathological hatred of america that prevents you from being rational. Again, The Taliban has been BTFO and to imply they are more powerful now than they ever were, or that they control more area now than they did when Afghanistan was the Islamic Emierate of Afghanistan is factually wrong/ This was Afghanistan before the invasion

>the taliban controls more area of afghanistan now than they did before the invasion! wake up sheeple!
>no they dont
>w-well they control areas of pakistan!

No because every time America Goes to War they keep losing their bits of their freedom.

>Asks about US in Afghanistan
>uses picture of the German army which is a total pile of underfunded shit that has fancy HK markings on it.

The only freedom we are loosing is the ability to do shit in secret that we shouldn't be doing anyway. Most of these bad habits that you wouldn't want outed aren't that hard to get rid of as you mature.

fun fact: the German General who lead kraut forces at Tora Bora got stripped of his rank because he said he liked a german politician who compared jewish bolsheviks in 1917 russia to the nazis

>Iran is blue
>The sea is blue

WHY

Imagine if every person on this site identity neing exposed.

You realize Pakistan is actually strategically important (unlike Afghanistan) right? They've got fucking nukes for Christ's sake.

they sure won the heart of the younger population, opening their eyes to the rest of the world with bootleg DVDs and trinkets. They know now the world isn't just limited to their shithole. In time this may prove to be an eye-opener and the real victory may lay in the future.

Or you know, in ten years from now they'll be another supervillain organization bombing the world and we'll wonder where they got all the weapons and training :^)

Being*

still doesnt change the fact that you were moving the goalpost. youre doing it again because I never said Pakistan wasnt important. Also, hiding out in the mountains=/=being the state of a country.

>german politician who compared jewish bolsheviks in 1917 russia to the nazis

Who is this Based Kraut you speak of?

Also, he should've been stripped of his command for fucking up, as should all officers at Tora Bora.

If these retards had actually done their job and killed bin Laden right then and there, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan

>If these retards had actually done their job and killed bin Laden right then and there, we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan
it was all but confirmed that Donald Rumsfield is the faggot who fucked it all up by rejecting plans and ignoring CIA request to seal off that escape route into Pakistan

youtube.com/watch?v=mmtPBTybQ9k

It depends on whether we assess them by their stated goals.

Afghanistan was theoretically to seek justice for the victims of 9/11 and to blunt Al Qaeda's capacity to wreak terror against the US. It achieved both to some degree by killing a lot of Al Q and Taliban. But it also served as a great recruiting tool for new jihadis and surely gave rise to the new extremist groups that followed. Also, although we were told like every week that we'd killed the #2 guy in Al Qaeda, the leadership was never really decimated and it took an operation in Pakistan years later to finally get Bin Laden.

Iraq's stated goal was to disarm the regime of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. We went in there and got a shit-ton of people killed, including thousands of US troops, searching for weapons that pretty much everybody knew never existed in the first place. Saddam Hussein was killed, but Iraq's secular government -- which included Christians and women in high-ranking positions -- gave way to an Islamic state. The disbanding of Iraq's army created a security void in which groups like ISIS were able to appear and flourish. The US paid dearly in loss of money, life, and standing in the world.

Both countries are now essentially failed states (Afghanistan arguably was already) that bleed Islamist extremists into their neighbors.

So basically: Afghanistan war = meh. Iraq war = historic disaster. Both = plenty of unintended consequences.

In Iraq we technically did since our goals were all over the place but these three remain consitant.
Why were we there?
1. We believed Saddam had connections to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam was funding him
2.We believed Saddam had nuclear weapons
3.We wanted to control the Oil Saddam wanted to nationlize

So we got access to the Oil, because we Killed Saddam and we neutralized what we believed to be was a nuclear threat to the country that could of been an associate to Osama Bin Laden.

We got all of that and the answers we wanted and thats why we were really there. So in my eyes we won the war, but we failed in controlling the aftermath and we let it rot like what happened to Germany after WW1.

Define win.

I thought it was Bush because the US Military needed permission from the executive authority to land troops in Pakistan?

>yes they did.
No they did not, you fuckwit. Even your map shows that. The Taliban didn't get BTFO on shit. The ''government'' America is supporting are literally Islamist tribal warlords who they pay money for so they don't make peace with Taliban. America has been there for 17 years and not only the Taliban hasn't been defeated Isis is also there. You have squandered trillions of dollars against a bunch of sandal wearing mountain dwellers and still haven't won. That retard Trump thought he could force Pakistan (a nuclear armed state) to bend over Afghanistan, or he will stop giving them aid. Pakistan simply responded by allying with China.

Achieve political and military goals at acceptable cost in lives and money.

None of those prerequisites have been fulfilled.

Taliban is still huge, controls a ton of Afghanistan.
Al Qaeda in 2001 was less than 1000 people and mostly in 1 country, now AQ has tens of thousands of people spread in like 8 or more countries.
There was 1 terrorist organization that orchestrated 9/11, now there are dozens of terrorist organizations fighting the US and its allies.
Used over 3 trillion ($3,000,000,000,000) to fight people in sandals with $15 dollar ak47s made in Pakistan.

Ya bro, US totally won.

>"Winning"

Someone is still bluepilled as fuck.

Why has every major empire in delince has been bogged down in the middle east?
>rome
>USSR
>mongols
>US
All got tangled up in the sandbox and fell

Well fuck Pakistan, we shouldn't be sending those back-stabbing pricks another dime. If it weren't for the fact that they have nuclear weapons, I'd say we should've invaded them the moment they gave safe haven to bin Laden.

>Why were we there?
>1. We believed Saddam had connections to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam was funding him
>2. We believed Saddam had nuclear weapons
>3. We wanted to control the Oil Saddam wanted to nationlize

The problem is that in each of these cases we were told something that wasn't true in order to justify the war.

1. Nobody believed that. Saddam Hussein was an evil bastard, but he had no tolerance at all for people like Al Qaeda and considered them a bunch of religious wackos.

2. Nobody believed that either. Just the same, Iraq's government produced a documentation of all of their weapons programs and allowed U.N. Inspectors to come in and look around. These same U.N. inspectors were in the process of destroying the handful of Al-Samoud missiles they'd found (they had a range longer than were permitted) when Bush told them to get out and stop doing their job because he was going to invade.

3. That's true, but the Bush administration insisted loudly and repeatedly that this wasn't about oil. A fundamental lie told to the American people and congress to make it palatable.

So if these were the pretenses, they were all bullshit.

Iraq can only be looked at as a win if we let Bush, Wolfowitz, Rice et al gaslight us with historical revisionism.

CIA wanted to put army rangers along the mountain path to pakistan to block a potential escape, but it was still in afghan boarders

>taking this long to reply because your frantic google searches yeilded shit.
No, my map clearly shows a post US invasion Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban except for the northern region. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about and are only here to belligerent shit post out of your pathological american hatred. Im done with you.