I hate it when internet atheists think religious people believe in some sort of cosmic grandfather...

I hate it when internet atheists think religious people believe in some sort of cosmic grandfather. They don't even bother to read serious classical theist's arguments because they (being extremely skeptical and stuff) denounce it as stupid and couldn't possibly conceive of being wrong.

I am not religious myself but I'll tell you this. There's quite a few good arguments for Classical Theism. Aquinas, Aristotle, Platon etc.

The anthropomorphic god of American/Zionist Evangelicalism is not the God of European Christianity.

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youtube.com/watch?v=dPOMNdvKZtQ&t=21m3s
youtube.com/watch?v=tL5pAZU8wKA
youtube.com/watch?v=8BHOVd5k-Qc&t=7801s
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there are*

What are some of these arguments

Google "Aristotelian Proof of God" or "Unactualized Actualizer"

Eh. I think where I grew up in the US instilled good enough values in me. The only areas where I'm disappointing society is not participating in any church and not having a family. But the latter is for the better as I believe I really shouldn't have been born.

Well atheism is a dogmatic religion unto itself.

It's called cognitive dissonance. Many atheists hallucinate or get angry in the face of evidence against their beliefs to preserve their worldview.

I used to listen to his videos, then I stopped. I guess I'm retarded now

Oh, just like the religious?

youtube.com/watch?v=dPOMNdvKZtQ&t=21m3s
Is Christian art bad compared to Ancient Greek/Roman art?

atheism isn't a religion because:

it doesn't exist. Geddit?

Debunk the cosmological argument.

I believe the concept of Cristian theology is the eternal baby sitter for plebs.
If you need to believe you’ll be burned forever after you die to stop you robbing, raping and murdering, then so be it. Just don’t try telling me I’ll be burned after I die for not buying into this childish fantasy.

It's been debunked many times.

>if you don’t believe in theism you’re a theist

>theist: God created the universe
>atheist: no
>theist: then what created the universe
>atheist: it created itself
>theist: then why can't God create himself

Atheists literally have the reasoning of 10 year old

>I hate it when internet atheists think religious people believe in some sort of cosmic grandfather
I believe that though

>Aquinas, Aristotle, Platon
i dont need old dead white people like that. I get my theology from Family Guy, South Park, and Rick n Morty

You must be mormon

Nope. What do big brain Christians believe then? God is some kind of shapeless being in the aether?

Fair enough, but that still doesn't disprove God. It simply implies that argument doesn't prove him. What about the uncaused cause argument?

Look, in the case for God you need actual scientific evidence or some other form of actual proof in order to justify believing in his existence. At this time, we have no proof therefore we have no reason to believe in a God.

Also the uncaused cause argument or whatever you called it is just the Cosmological argument. It works on the same false premises.

A being incomprehensible to human minds by definition. A three that is one. A being that cannot change, but can do anything.

Believing in ghosty grandpa is probably more rational.

>I hate it when internet atheists think religious people believe in some sort of cosmic grandfather.
but some really do and even most of those who dont, argue for it.

>They don't even bother to read serious classical theist's arguments because they (being extremely skeptical and stuff) denounce it as stupid and couldn't possibly conceive of being wrong.
amazing how you can critizise atheists for making assumptions and then you make assumptions about them and you propably didnt even realise that you were being hypocritical.

>There's quite a few good arguments for Classical Theism
sounds like an opinion, there sure are arguments for classical theism, but no good ones, if there were good ones we wouldnt have these conversations.

Read any book by E. Michael Jones

> youtube.com/watch?v=tL5pAZU8wKA

Not imagining God as a grandfather doesn't make the idea of him any less absurd.

>atheists
>expecting anything other than "I DON'T LIKE RULESSSSSS"
They literally just hate the idea of being held accountable

>t. Heathen

But it doesn't. Your "debunking" conveniently defines universe as all the exists, so the first cause (God) in the beginning would simply be the universe. It doesn't refute a first cause. It simply states the first cause was at one point the universe. That "debunk" is at the very least a misinterpreted semantic argument.

> it created itself
The correct answer would simply be “I don’t know”
But we can safely say we have a far better understanding of the universe than an ancient tribe of goat-herding Jews.

Wow, you really showed that straw man that you both can make claims based on nothing.

>I am not religious myself but I'll tell you this. There's quite a few good arguments for Classical Theism. Aquinas, Aristotle, Platon etc.
That's good enough. It's better than being an atheist.

*universe as all that exists

Atheism won't survive artificial intelligence.

>Everything has a cause
>There are things
>Therefore, there is a thing that was itself uncaused, that caused everything else.

Th argument is self-contradictory. The conclusion posits an uncaused, eternal creator, which contradicts the premise that everything has a cause.
Not to mention, I'd argue that the first premise isn't correct. Actions are caused. not entities. The only way to "cause" an entity is to act to rearrange existing entities.

>The anthropomorphic god of American/Zionist Evangelicalism is not the God of European Christianity.
The God of Abraham is just as Anthropomorphic as any other god. He has emotions, he does things, he has sex with women. He is even called "the Holy Father" or similar.
>There's quite a few good arguments for Classical Theism
No, there aren't. Saying "I think superstition is true therefore it is" isn't an argument, it's just a dumbass making meaningless assertions.
What evidence? No seriously what evidence do you think there is for superstition?
There's nothing to debunk. It's just "I say there needed to be a creator therefore my god is true". Well, you can assert lots of things but it doesn't make those things true.
>What about the uncaused cause argument?
There's the same problem. Why does there need to an intelligent "first cause"? It's unnecesary and without evidence of it(your FEELS are not evidence) easily dismissed.

>hate the idea of being held accountable
Your making the claim. Post proofs. I’m holding you accountable.

Of course I believe in the trinity and the mystery of it, but God is a He so I think he does have a shape or form like a man, and we were created in his image, but only Christ was revealed to us so I don't think it's right to make physical depictions of God the father now that everyone is literate, but I can see why the Church depicted him when they had to teach peasants the faith through pictures and story telling.

Arguing through means of philosophy will get us nowhere. I could argue that the only thing proven to exist is my own mind (solipsism) and there is no way to disprove that so the argument will hit a brick wall. As you stated above debunking the kalam argument doesn't disprove God, which is true, but that means that no matter what argument you put forth and I debunk you will say the same thing again and we will not reach a conclusion. Therefore there is no reason to continue the argument unless you can procure actual scientific evidence.

>Christians
>believe nothing in life matters, all that's important is PRAISE JEBUS and Heaven
They literally just hate the idea of being held accountable.

He doesn't have to disprove God, you have to prove God exists.

Doesn't seem like the type of thing to "prove" with screen shots or anecdotes. That's just the conclusion I've come to after watching lots of atheists sperg out and attack religion, though primarily just Christianity

>>believe nothing in life matters, all that's important is PRAISE JEBUS and Heaven
That's not correct at all. And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make

If by "universe" we mean "the sum of everything that exists" then the actual correct answer is "It just is." If the universe didn't exist, then it can't be created, because nothing exists to create it.
We see it; it exists.

>If the universe didn't exist, then it can't be created, because nothing exists to create it.

Why do you push the unfounded ex nihilo meme?

>You only don't do bad things for fear of consequence
Truly you have the moral high ground

>If the universe didn't exist, then it can't be created, because nothing exists to create it.
You do realize why that's retarded when talking about an omnipotent being, right?

>The anthropomorphic god of American/Zionist Evangelicalism is not the God of European Christianity.

Pic related. which continent do you think MADE all those pictures of God the Father?

>some Cosmic Grandfather
the fact of the matter is, if you take the Bible (esp. the Old Testament/Tanakh) literally, God IS described as having a body, and from Daniel, we can infer he is the Ancient of Days.

Take it from me. When you research what the cultures of the time around which the bible was written depicted their gods as and tie it back to the Bible, it starts to make sense that all those pictures of God the Father aren't just artistic license.

btw I'm an Orthodox Christian, and none of the above is to say that I HATE god, just that Protestards who like to critique images of God don't read their Bibles.

>>You only don't do bad things for fear of consequence
Ahh. Well yea pretty much. The possibility of an unfathomable eternity spent in perpetual torture is really the only reason I'm not a total piece of shit.
Ideally it's not supposed to be like that, but it's often how it turns out.

>A three that is one.

plz
kys

>God is a He

but not daddy in the sky

hm rly made me think

>God IS described as having a body, and from Daniel, we can infer he is the Ancient of Days.
They also called a whale a fish, because the average goat herder at the time wouldn't know the difference.

I always took "in his image" to mean "volitional consciousness." Body shape is incidental to humanness compared to that. Not to mention, being omnipresent conflicts with perceptual evidence unless god is incorporeal.

>It's another Christians chimp out and start shit like a nigger episode

Which is the correct interpretation. Anything else is border line retarded

Atheists just like to think they're better than everyone else. The fact that they do those weird claims that Christians believe in X or Y it's ridiculous. Also notice how they don't pick on other theist religions. (((ATHEISTS)))

Perhaps the rest of us can see the earthly consequences a bit more clearly, so we don't need supernatural paternalism to act well.

Not saying the Bible is perfect in its description of the natural world (what matters is its spiritual content), only that if you're going to follow it, you need to admit God is described as an old man.

It's easier to pick on what you know. The religion most atheists know is christianity, whether that's because its the dominant one in the culture, or because they grew up christian and it redpilled them.

>earthly consequences a bit more clearly,
Yea but if you thought you could get away with it, why not? With a little effort and planning, it probably wouldn't be that hard to get away with murder, and there's plenty of people that need a good killing. If you stand to gain from it, or it's just fun, why not?

>admit God is described as an old man
Well yea, that was the best way to get people to understand.

>The anthropomorphic god of American/Zionist Evangelicalism is not the God of European Christianity.
Same a their rapture fetish. The belief that all white people will float away (soon, and in our lifetime) is very American.You don't really see that in European churches or artwork.

what has moral responsibility to do with theism?

I was just suggesting that's the only / main reason people are atheist. Though without theism, where do morals come from?

WHY are you reeling off names you've been told about as a basis for your argument, YOU DID NOT KNOW THEM, you've heard about them.
So they are irrelevant, some what, today.
In this motion {time} of the lies and the now.

That's what Icons are for, imparting spiritual concepts so we can understand it through our five senses.

Ye that video was pretty bad
Heres a good respone to it:
youtube.com/watch?v=8BHOVd5k-Qc&t=7801s

There's more to "getting away with it" than avoiding the police. Think about the long term consequences. You'd have to be constantly nervous that someone would find the evidence you've hidden, checking up on it to make sure it isn't easily observable. You'd probably face metal consequences, too; there's a reason soldiers come back with PTSD. It also erodes the fabric of society and civilization, which is something you vastly benefit from personally. It's WAY too serious to consider doing it "fun."

Sometimes it's justified. The guy sneaking into my house at night to hurt/rob me does "need a good killing." I'd argue that those situations are the ones where I don't stand to gain anything by killing, but I do stand to unjustly lose something if I don't kill.

the same place they come from WITH theism, its not like you see people actually following the bible literally and even if you did, the people would have to make a moral judgement to follow the bible instead of the quran for example.

>The anthropomorphic god of American/Zionist Evangelicalism is not the God of European Christianity.
Good post and amen. Zionist Evangelicalism is a jewish invention that's about a century old. pic related.

>There's quite a few good arguments for Classical Theism. Aquinas, Aristotle, Platon etc.
Nobody does their reading anymore. Neither side. No, not even most youtubers. I guess public school is partly to blame.

Do your reading kids.

A recognition of reality, human nature, and the consequences of your actions.

pic related

It's a religion in the fact that it's taken in blind faith.

It's basically built around the idea that God won't allow his people to suffer for their faith, which is also why a lot of them believe in Prosperity Theology. Contrast that with the history of Christian Martyrs and people who WILLINGLY subjugate themselves for God (see fasting and Flagellants), and you can see the effect of (((capitalism))) on a society.

Oh and btw, the Scofield Reference Bible is on the bookshelf of virtually every protestant pastor in America. It's a departure from everything the reformers stood for.

Who's got that pic of the stages 1-5:

1. believe in god
2. disbelieve
3. agnostic
4. realise that believing serves society
(5. unironically believe )

> If you take the old testamen literally
You orthos dont do that tho right?
Didnt some churchfather said adam and eve is an allegory in defense of pagans calling him out on hebrew myths?

Morals come from love and fear.
>Survival mechanisms.
Like whites trying to win over the Asians by ganging up on the blacks mentality.
Same with the whites sucking up to arab meat.
>>Survival mechanisms.
Sorry guys but you're idiots and it needed to be said.
So you note it.

>You'd probably face metal consequences, too; there's a reason soldiers come back with PTSD
Maybe. Though most ptsd is from seeing friends, people they've gotten close to, blown up and shot. Not so much from dropping sand niggers.

>evidence
I mean yea, but that's where the planning comes in. Cut off hands, smash teeth/skull to prevent ID of the body. Dump body in rural area, maybe multiple locations, let coyotes do their thing. Have a solid alibi. Avoid toll roads, don't take anything with GPS in it. You get the idea. You can make it easy for a good lawyer to cast reasonable doubt if it ever was linked back to you.
But anyway, point was that some people would accept those risks.

Eternally stuck at 4.
If I ever get to reach five it will be influenced by the lowest common denominator as indicated by anthropology so expect me to light a candle for the household deity.

Yea, I don't have that much faith in people

Yep that's me too, and it was a painful journey just to arrive at 4. So 5 seems way way off

Of course not as we will build a machine god

But you do have enough faith in them to give them a moral blank check that they can interpret any way they want?

Orthodox Christians are heretics, but Protestant are shit-tier heathens, no better than the Jew. As a matter of fact, the Saint-Barthelemy was the pinacle of glorious retribution.

Read your Francis Schaeffer and CS Lewis and see what you think. I haven't read much of them myself, but they're good if you're hardstuck and they don't talk down to you or hand-wave your valid objections.
Also some people really Kierkegaard.
Stay away from zionists/dispensationalists.

The church Fathers had varying views on a lot of things. Heck, St. Augustine is technically a Saint in the Orthodox Church despite his doctrines being rejected by most of the Eastern Church (one of the reasons for the Great Schism). We follow what the Counsels say on the essentials and leave the rest up to whatever is traditionally believed by the Majority of Orthodox Christians (see the Vincentian Canon).
Also, in my view at least, Adam and Eve were real people, but when they existed or the fact the bible says they lived to be 900+ matters less than the fact they fucked up and Jesus had to clean up their mess (although not because of original sin (a concept created by Augustine who's doctrines we reject as i had previously stated), but rather because they opened themselves up to Death. In the Orthodox view, Children are born without sin, but over time take on sin because they live in a sinful world).

Fair point, modern mainstream Christianity is a total fucking disaster

>blind faith

Yeah, some people will. But those who won't be deterred by real consequences likely won't be deterred by supernatural ones either. In fact, the promise of supernatural reward will probably encourage more people to take those risks. We've been seeing religiously motivated violence since the dawn of religion.

I like Kierkegaard though it can be a fucker to understand his writing

thanks for the suggestions

It's the internet. Nobody can bother with complex facts here. The most complex arguement you see here is something like: "We are based, we got tigers, fuck everyone hope you die"

Honestly, when was it not? Indulgences, nepotism, lack of celibacy, the second 3/4th of the crusades, infighting between orthodox, protestant and catholic, that time where there were three popes, etc.

It's hasn't lived up to it's stated ideals in ages, if it even ever did.

People will always fall short. That's part of being human. But I'd take those problems over people figuratively shitting on the scripture in the name of progress

>I hate it
you can choke on your hate for all I care.
>when internet atheists think religious people believe in some sort of cosmic grandfather.
that's what religious people believe in, sorry. I know religious people, and I'm not taking your word over my own experience.
>They don't even bother to read serious classical theist's arguments
apart from no such thing as a serious theist's argument, I think I see your problem: theologians don't matter. the pope doesn't matter. the catechism doesn't matter. what matters is what the mass of believers, the howling warsheep, actually believe.

Cool strawman.

Nope what matters is what you believe, user.

Do you have a moment to talk about our Lord and Saviour Je......

Both Catholics and Protestants are super cucked these days.

Funny thing. There's a "jewish denomination" called Reformed Judaism and it's basically just as cucked. They're basically eroding jewish culture just as much if not more than modern Christians are eroding Western culture. It's very common in America, but rare in Israel, but that's starting to change. I'm all for them catching this cultural virus.

There was a time in recent history when huge crowds would travel long distances to hear Jonathan Edwards preach hardcore conservative Christianity for 3 hours. Contrast this with most churches today where the sermon is 25 minutes long and people go to sleep. Puritans, Dutch Reformed, Lutherans, Catholics, and even Anglicans at various times all took the status of their immortal souls very seriously.

Modern Christianity emphasizes forgiveness and tolerance. Society will continue to degenerate until we bring back genuine fear of eternal damnation (which is something straight atheism can't provide).

Proving OPs point: The Post

ohshit the JW inquisition what now

instead of shitposting go forth and do as your ID commands.

>People will always fall short.
Then maybe you should acknowledge that christianity's stated ideals are unattainable and find something realistic to work towards.