Italian divorce lawyer here - today I will teach you all how to: a) Avoid paying alimony b) Avoid having to give up half your shit
>How to not give up your stuff: Italy has 2 ways to deal with the division of goods in a marriage according to marriage law: "Separazione" and "Comunione" (dei beni). The 2nd is the default one by law and it's simply the same as the rest of the West (what both partners have is shared and in divorce settlment it's split in half); Separazione on the other hand means that each partner retains full ownership of whatever they had before getting married AND whatever they acquired while being married, be they material goods or $$. It is basically a legally-binding pre-nup that can't be thrown out by the judge.
Note: you can at ANY TIME switch from Comunione to Separazione during marriage, not just at the moment of getting married; sadly it requires both partners consent - I'd say "either we do this or I won't marry you"; moreover in my work experience women don't really know what these legal particularities mean more often than not.
Goes without saying any sane man should do this.
>How to avoid alimony: Due to the sentence of the Supreme Court (Corte di Cassazione) of May 2017, re-confirmed with a qualified majority (aka legally-binding for the government and future generations of judges) on the 10th of January 2018, Italian family law does NOT recognize Alimony as legal.
Alimony is paid only during the process of separation (6-12 months). Afterward the only reason one would have to pay alimony is when the ex-partner can't objectively provide for herself.
What does this mean? Can you work but don't want to? No Alimony. Can't work but qualify for welfare? No Alimony. Can't work, don't qualify for welfare but have some other mean to provide for yourself? No Alimony.
Synthesis: >Want to get married? Do so in Italy >Foreigners that want to divorce here can. >Italy does not recognize foreign family law where this conflicts with our own.
>>Italy does not recognize foreign family law where this conflicts with our own. but if you only marry and divorce in italy but you live somewhere else, the italian laws wont apply, I guess?
Jack Gonzalez
Writing 2nd half for foreigners that want to do exactly that right now
Nolan Cox
Do note, howewer, that Italian family law applies to you ONLY if you reside in Italy at the moment of asking for divorce. If I were you I'd propose to your other "sweet half" to take a long, sabbatical year to explore the "romantic country of Italy" - just just in time for the maximum time a divorce sentence could take in Italy.
More things to consider: >Separazione dei Beni applies only to residents of Italy. Comunione is the default form, so any foreigner that simply moves here for a few months to divorce will have to give half his stuff to the harpy.
>No Alimony: the harpy might try to get the sentence invalidated in your home country - be ready to fight this since in most cases this IS ILLEGAL. Why? Because Italy has reciprocity treaties with vast majority of countries - an Italian divorce sentence HAS to be accepted by the judges of a country that has such a treaty with Italy, the end.
Next we deal with children.
Jackson Ross
> why marry in the first place though
Evan Clark
Note on Sep. dei Beni: If you transfer residency in Italy for more than half a year legally, you can legally switch to Sep. dei Beni, thus avoiding the issue.
>Children: Oh boy. This is the root of the troubles for husbands.
First the good news: it is common practice to give "affidamento condiviso", aka split custody - usually 50/50, sometimes more or less but never less that 25% of time. No bs where the father won't be able to see his kids.
Now the bad news: the harpy will get the kids as you will. This means that she will usually get to live in the common house until the kids grow up (not move out - just when they become 18). Yep she will get your house until then.
The lesser bad news: If you are the owner/majority owner of said house she will NOT get the right to sell it/modify it anyway without your permission/damage it without paying you back. Moreover, she will have to move out as soon as the kids become 18.
Hudson Gray
I will let this thread die, and re-write everything in an easier-to-understand way.
Jordan Clark
It's already easy af to read, no need to revise. Thanks, Judge Dredd.
Robert Hall
Ok..then I'll just finish with the last post:
>Is an Italian divorce valid in EU? Yes and it is legally binding due to both eu treaties and international reciprocity.
>Is an Italian divorce valid in USA? Yes, IF you domiciled in Italy at the moment of asking for the divorce AND when the final sentence was declared. Otherwise the family court has the full right to throw the sentence of divorce out of the window and judge you according to the notoriously unfair-to-men family law of America.
Conclusion - Want to get married? Do so if you want. Want to get divorced? Move to Italy to "rekindle the passion" for a period ranging from 6 months to a year, and divorce the bitch while here. Note that the law of the country where you are domiciled takes precedence over the one of origin - even if she moves back home to try and stop you, you won and the proceeding will go forward.
And this is how you win against a bitch.
AMA
Charles Cox
Bump for effort itabro
Many thx too bad about the house though
Noah Lewis
I know - compare our family law with other EU countries family law tho - I like to think we are a bit less fucked in case of divorce (no alimony, no sharing your stuff etc).
Caleb Morgan
HOW TO DO SO IN AMERICA >Sign a prenup
Nolan Peterson
cooking up some pasta in your honor rn
Eli Perry
And then have it thrown out of the window by any feminist judge - a pre-nup is NOT legally binding!
An Italian divorce sentence IS legally binding if you got it while domiciled in Italy - aka the feminist judge can do nothing about it.
Adam Torres
this is all very interesting. however, a question occurs.
whats with the flag. why should we believe you, is it illegal to share laws with foreigners in Italy?
Henry Price
>tfw have most of my assets hidden away in Bermuda and Antigua
I’m mean my wife is lovely and and we get along great, but shit can change at the drop of a hat. She ain’t getting more than the equivalent of pennies in a split.
Carson Reed
If you mean the Eu flag - because family law used during a divorce settlmenet in a EU country is valid in the rest of the EU.
Sharing laws with foreigners? If you mean "can foreigners make use of Italian laws" - yeah, that's the purpose of this guide. If you mean "I it legal for you to share this info?" Well yeah - it's available online, on any legal-info website etc.
Note tho: the Supreme Court decision on Alimony was confirmed on the 10th of THIS MONTH - many websites have not been updated and still refer to the old juridical form. Simply go on the Corte di Cassazione (Supreme Court) website and you can find the updated judgement - of course it's in Italian.
Ryder Garcia
Go through that and risk being caught in the future....or simply hire a lawyer and ask about what I am talking about, and get to keep ALL your shit legally without any chance she will get in the future - still good luck ukbro!
Henry Sanders
>Italian divorce lawyer here
Angel Ross
This
John Barnes
okay then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt then. you know how it is with the shill situation.
I wish i knew this last year tho...
Jeremiah Morris
Proof of my profession? If you are truly an Italian you know that too many divorce lawyers in our country are fucked in the head and love to crucify husbands. I'd rather keep myself anonymous and keep my job thank you!
I am simply sharing simplified guides/news - if you want we can talk specific articles of law.
Se preferite parlare in italiano, 'moveteve al thread italiano. Questo è sopratutto x stranieri che vogliono far uso della nostra legislazione in materia di divorzio etc etc.
Mason Price
E prova della nazione da cui scrivo, gente in malafede.
Proof of being in Italy for doubters.
Bentley Brown
I’m a dual citizen of another country, and I’ve registered all my accounts and LLCs under that, instead of as a UK citizen. We also split our time pretty evenly in between here and the US, and we were married in the US. There’s so many different mitigating circumstances that would make proper jurisdiction and division of everything an absolute total mess of where everything would even take place and by decided upon by whom in that scenario, that it would be impossible for them to even touch my hidden assets. Hopefully it never comes to that though. I doesn’t hurt to have a few loaded in the chamber though to avoid a massive loss in a worst case scenario though.
If you play your cards right you’ll never even need some kike lawyer, which are a whole different can of worms on trying to take your money.
Nathan Cruz
Last mathematical update of thread - According to Tribunale di Milano (sez. IX 22 maggio 2017) your ex can't advance claims even for alimenti ($$ if she is objectively unable to provide for herself) if she gets more than 1000 euro gross/months.
Gavin Brooks
>I'd rather keep myself anonymous and keep my job thank you! Oke, you're not a lawyer.
Fake and gay.
Daniel Campbell
..or just search online for even 1/4 of what I mentioned, before saying bs - or are you the usual terun that needs to be spoonfed?
Andrew Anderson
>even if she moves back home to try and stop you, you won and the proceeding will go forward Please clarify. As long as you've filed form a divorce while residing in italy, the legal process will continue and there's jack shit she can do? No possibility of failure? She doesn't need to reside in Italy when the sentence is declared?
Please be thorough, if there's any way she can slither out that needs to be known. Also big fucking thanks, this is some big stuff and it's very nice of you to clue us all in.
Jacob Davis
So long as one of the two partners (read - you) is domiciled in Italy and is a LEGAL resident (if you are Swedish this is very easy for you to do) the proceeding will go forward and no, she can't do anything about it.
The ONLY thing she could do was to "impugnare la sentenza" aka ask its invalidation in your home country IF the aforementioned residence requirement was not satisfied.
So long as you legally reside in Italy during the ENTIRE divorce proceeding tho? Yeah she can't do anything about it.
Evan Hughes
Oh that is just grand. So you don't even both need to live in Italy? Just whoever files first if you live in different countries?
Luis Myers
IDEALLY - both of you are resident of Italy when you file for divorce (it will give more weight to the sentence in your home courts and in my experience make the whole process smoother); but after this no - it's enough that one of you two keeps on being a legal resident of Italy for the remained of the divorce procedures.
Even better if she goes away! I know from earsay - Note that this is not by my experience bu just earsay - that many other countries do in fact give more weight to a divorce sentence if partners were separated at the time.
Just for curiosity: Italy allows either consensual or juridical divorce with separation - the max term is in any case 12 months, hence my recommendation to reside here for 12 months.
Jace Price
Fantastic. I think our system is pretty much identical to "Comunione", 50/50 w/o alimony, but we need to get every single american in on this.
Evan Taylor
I heard of a way to stitch up your partner in these events. Basically it works like this.
Give your parents a sum of money as a gift. Borrow it back under contract with 50% compounding interest yearly. Have a clause in the contract that payment is only due when agreed to by both parties... ie parents and yourself, after she tries to take everything.
When she tries to take half, you execute the contract and your parents will get all of your collective stuff, usually leaving you in debt to them which she will by liable for half of.
She can fuck off to her new life in debt and your parents can gift all your stuff back to you and clear all of your debt to them.
Key is to get contract signed and independantly witnessed in advance. Not sure how this would go with tax, but i would rather give it to the govt than her.
Asher Butler
Assegno di Divorzio, aka what the majority of the West calls Alimony (this has been abolished).
Child Support is currently under discussion, but do not expect significant reforms in that for some time - it took them 30 years to reform alimony..
The vast majority of the West follows such a system (pool together resources and split them 50-50 in divorce settlement) - hence why Italian family law might be attractive for a husband seeking a "cheap" divorce.
Andrew Moore
cropped it for you
Jeremiah Watson
At least in Denmark this would not work, because there's a limit to how much you can legally gift to family members (yes, fucking really!) per year. Any gifts above the minimum amount are subject to a gift tax. It has to do with closing tax loopholes, but it's fucked nonetheless.
Benjamin Flores
This requires the cooperation of your parents.
I have seen MANY cases where the entire family of the husband was turned against him by the bitch during the divorce.
I am not saying your idea is bad - not at all, it's quite smart indeed! Just that it requires external support (parents). I prefer to leave nothing to random chance given how unfair to men family law is in general.
Thank you swedish bro - I will report it in the future to help others.
Owen Brooks
>10th of January 2018 i missed that.Now I understand why tehre was a camppagn against feminism on the QN
Zachary Carter
For you and other Italians that might be interested - Alimenti, aka the concept of limited alimony in case of not being objectively self-sufficient is related to the concept of self-sufficiency, aka to earning at least 11.528,41 euro/year , regardless of their source.
Note that this requirement can be supplanted by possessing equivalent or larger real estate goods and/or qualifying for welfare. In such cases the requirement is waived and she cannot lay any claim even for alimenti.
But, of the ex-husband had, with the Separazione dei beni, the majority/total ownership of the house, can he ask the physical custody of children? Of course, given the possibility to both ex-spouse see your children 50/50?
Matthew Lee
Given this has become a generic divorce thread, to keep on with and others, I will post a quick review of what to do to if you are a foreigner:
>Come to Italy, ideally with your spouse. >Optional step: Transfer residence to Italy - wait 6 months and switch to Separazione dei Beni >Go to the Local Court and get an "Order of Separation" - start of divorce. >The bitch cooperates? 6 months of separation and you can proceed with divorce. She doesn't cooperate/goes away/leaves you/tries to fuck you over in home country? The procedure simply takes longer - 12 months instead of 6 - but it will still come to an end with a divorce. >Go back to your home country after having received confirmation of divorce sentence from italian Court.
For Americans - the recognition of divorce is made at a state level. Insofar as I can see, so long as you were a legal resident of Italy AND had your domicile there, they will have to recognize the divorce sentence due to treaties with Italy. Expect feminazi judges to try to slither out of this - do not let them. Any bs they claim? Refer to the fact that the sentence is valid according to Italian laws, was promulgated in Italy and that it is recognized due to international comity.
Just to be sure, keep legal domicile in Italy until the whole affair is over. remember that even if they could turn the sentence, if you keep domicile in Italy we won't recognize their turning of our family law as valid - aka if you got troubles at home just stay in Italy until it's solved. Trust me it will be solved.
More notes: Italy still has leftovers of fault-based divorce, that influence both custody of the children in SOME cases (no, if she cheats you won't automatically get the kids, but it becomes a LOT more probable) and $$ payments, usually solved with a settlement on-the-side of the alimony judgement. Aka do not cheat - let her hang herelf.
Alexander Morales
I won't lie to you - it does help, but not nearly as much as you might think. the mother is still seen as the default parental figure.
Having said that..if you get a decent lawyer and manage to paint her as the cause of the divorce, this might JUST be enough (coupled with being the full owner of the house and main provider for the family) to snatch a full custody.
Saw it happen more than once, and managed to get it once. Sadly it's a rare combination.
Cooper Cooper
Don't care about your newspaper articles: you claimed to be a lawyer so post proof or stfu, you larping faggot.
Isaac Bell
In fact, I know very well that we men are mistreated in cases of marriage separations... But yes, you confirmed that is needed a good plan for divorcing. And, if the cards are well played, it could go splendid as fuck. Thanks compaesano
Andrew Phillips
More shit about the house - In absence of kids and/or the kids are over 18, the owner of the house gets it and keeps it in Separazione dei beni
Jacob Ortiz
Dude just switch to Separazione dei Beni and go to town if you are decided to divorce your wife - if you have no kids/they are over 18, you won't pay anything to her and will keep 100% of your stuff.
Juan Roberts
But the problem would ne the alimony for kids. And you give alimony to the ex-spouse that care/have them in home. You have the kids + Separazione dei beni=no alimony whatsoever
John Cruz
The Mantenimento per i figli (alimony for children) is a sore sport for a father - let's say that even under the old Italian alimony rules it was by far less painful (economically speaking) than the alimony for wifey, but it's still bad.
So..the good news is that as soon as the child is self-sufficient (not 18, but self-sufficient, important difference) you won't have to pay alimony for him/her. The bad news is that if the harpy gets primary custody of the children, you'll have to pay as you said.
If it went as smoothly as you prospect - you get either full custody OR primary custody (MUCH easier to get - talk with your lawyer) then it would go automatically that you'd retain the right to live (not right of possession that you'd retain in any case) in the house and would not have to pay any alimony - in fact might receive it.
Christian Cox
You don’t have to “gift” anything. You can just take a really “bad” loan from your parents and then be on the hook.
Jason Jones
This was the plan. And the best thing to do. Fuck the feminist judges. Grazie mille!
