Why didn't Shisui just use Kotoamatsukami without Hiruzen's consent...

Why didn't Shisui just use Kotoamatsukami without Hiruzen's consent? Just gather the entire clan for a meeting and say "Don't be a bunch of cunts, we've got it pretty good here."

Or once Itachi got the eye, use it on Obito (who he knew wasn't Madara at the time anyway) and say "Don't be a cunt, don't attack the village, also, kill yourself."

Kishimoto entirely fucked up the entirety of the Uchiha massacre. Was it Itachi testing himself? Was it the ruling class of Konoha? Was it Danzo? Was it Obito? Was it Madara? Did Hiruzen know? Why didn't anyone tell Sasuke that it WASN'T his brother? Why did everyone seem ok with the last loyalist Uchiha being hellbent on vengeance against his brother when most of the upper echelons knew that Itachi didn't actually do anything wrong? Why didn't Sasuke immediately kick the shit out of Obito once he realised it was Obito who was behind the massacre? Why would Sasuke just believe a random dude with a Sharingan who kidnapped him and stashed him in an underground bunker somewhere? Why, when Itachi said "Dude, Konoha didn't make me do anything, it was literally ALL Obito. I don't want Konoha destroyed", did Sasuke say "Yeah ok so I'm gonna go destroy Konoha haha."

>someone spent the time to make that
Tobirama was right

I've made several. Used to work at a newspaper.

I think the implied reason is that Danzo somehow got the drop on Shisui before he got the chance and shit was going down regardless.

Plus, as powerful as Kotoamatsukami is, it's still just a genjutsu. It can be broken if the connection is disrupted by pain.

Danzo only got one eye. Itachi had the other one.

Kotoamatsukomi is the only unbreakable genjutsu, because a) it doesn't require eye contact, and the target doesn't even know they're UNDER a genjutsu. There's no outward effects. We saw it in the Kage Summit - Danzo just 'suggested' he be appointed Supreme Commander of the army, and Mifune just accepted it, without knowing he was affected at all, until Ao pointed it out.

Could he use it on the whole clan though? I don't think so.

Could've been useful to use on the coup leaders, though.

> Could he use it on the whole clan
Yes. It doesn't require eye contact. As one of the clan's premiere ninja, and the son of the clan lord, it wouldn't be hard to request a mandatory clan meeting, and then use Kotoamatsukami on everyone at once, simply sweeping the crowd with his gaze while telling them that insurrection is not a good idea.

>and the target doesn't even know they're UNDER a genjutsu
They don't have to. If they get stabbed in the arm, thereby disrupting chakra flow, they'll snap out of it and realize what they were thinking before was bullshit.

Also, doesn't it have a severe cooldown without senju cells? Best case, Shisui could use it on Fugaku, but the other Uchiha would just mutiny him.

Kotoamatsukami is not a regular genjutsu. Not only is it a '''Mangekyou genjutsu''', meaning it can only be broken by another Mangekyou, it affects the user entirely differently. Also, physical pain doesn't disrupt chakra flow, it simply jolts the user. However, the rules for Genjutsu mostly go out the window the second a Sharingan gets involved. As per fucking usual.

It has a ten year cooldown while in a crow. Shisui, as the original user, would be able to use it without much of a cooldown, if again. And again, he could use it on everyone since it doesn't require direct eye contact.

>It doesn't require eye contact
Doesn't mean it can work on many people at once. Remember when Danzo tried it on some guy at the Kage meeting and they noticed it? Of course that was just plot trying to fuck him but it most definitely doesn't work on groups. Also Danzo was thinking about using it on Sasuke or Tobi, not the two of them. He'd have won if Tobi and Karin weren't here.

> Remember when Danzo tried it on some guy at the Kage meeting and they noticed it?
He tried it on Mifune and it totally worked. It was only noticed because Ao, who had a Byakugan, saw Mifune's chakra get disrupted by Danzo's influence. Without a Bykaugan, nobody would've noticed.

There is no reason why it couldn't work on groups.

There's nothing saying he can use it on more than one person at a time, though. Otherwise Danzo would've just mind controlled the entire Five Kage group and Mifune to avoid any suspicion.

Why wouldn't he use it on everyone in the room instead of Mifune then? And
>Danzo was thinking about using it on Sasuke or Tobi, not the two of them

It's already pretty OP the way it is. Could defeat Madara.

Hard to mind control a guy who can see 100% of the chakra, and what it's doing.

Looks like Byakugan is the hard counter to all genjutsu.

Except auditory genjutsu, probably. It managed to snag Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan users alike. Shame that wasn't explored more. Maybe it will be in Boruto.

I dunno, because even if it's auditory, it still requires the forming, moulding, and usage of chakra. That means that the Byakugan should still be able to see it. Whether that means the target would be able to see that it's affecting their ears or not is another thing.

The Sharingan and Rinnegan can see chakra too, just not as well as the Byakugan. They'd probably be able to see the chakra in the sound waves but whether or not they could react faster than the speed of sound is another story.

>see it
>can't counter it
Not good.
Sage Mode is the hard counter to Genjutsu. The frogs constantly pump you up with nature energy, essentially making you invulnerable to Genjutsu.

The Sharingan and Rinnegan can tell chakra apart by colour, and can tell what chakra came from each person. I don't think they can see invisible chakra just floating around.

If you know you're under a genjutsu, you can hurt yourself or use Genjutsu: Release to break yourself free. The issue is that with most genjutsu, once you realise you're in one, it's already too late and you've lost control of your body. With the Byakugan, you can see it before it takes effect, and it would allow you to place yourself outside of the technique's influence, allowing you to break it.

Nah, a Perfect Jinchuuriki is the hard counter. Bee tanked a Tsukuyomi no problem because of Gyuuki.

When does that happen?

That's pretty good too, but iirc the beast takes some time to disrupt it

Sasuke vs Bee
or more accurately everyone around trying to revive Sasuke over and over so he can get rekt by Bee again

Sasuke cannot use Tsukuyomi.

>Why didn't Shisui just use Kotoamatsukami without Hiruzen's consent? Just gather the entire clan for a meeting and say "Don't be a bunch of cunts, we've got it pretty good here."

he was, until he died.

>Or once Itachi got the eye, use it on Obito (who he knew wasn't Madara at the time anyway) and say "Don't be a cunt, don't attack the village, also, kill yourself."

it was on cooldown.

Edo Itachi and Nagato vs. Naruto and Bee

I guess it's not explicitly Tsukuyomi but Gyuuki takes care of it anyway.

> he was, until he died.
He was waiting until Hiruzen gave him the OK.

> it was on cooldown.
It wasn't. Shisui didn't use it before giving it to Itachi. It would've been good to go.

Tailed Beasts can break their Jinchuuriki free of normal genjutsu and Genjutsu: Sharingan. They cannot break a user free of Tsukuyomi, a unique Mangekyou genjutsu.

>They cannot break a user free of Tsukuyomi, a unique Mangekyou genjutsu
That's speculation

Why wouldn't Itachi just use Tsukuyomi on both of them then? Nothing is shown to be able to break Tsukuyomi, including the Sharingan which was stated to be able to break EVERY GENJUTSU.

Man I hate what happened to genjutsu after the Sharingan became a major thing.

he was waiting to use it in both eyes

>cooldown

Blame Kabuto, he was the one in control.

>Why wouldn't Itachi just use Tsukuyomi on both of them then?
Because beasts can break it

> he was waiting to use it in both eyes
What do you mean? He didn't have both Kotoamatsukami eyes

Kabuto made them attack, he didn't make them not use certain techniques. I mean I guess it was sort of dumb - he should've known about Naruto's Talk no Jutsu by then.

That's speculation :^)

>That's speculation :^)
yeah but it makes sense
the truth is we don't know shit about that and Kishimoto would just write whatever suits him at the moment

Better than whatever the fuck /r9k/ does.

>He didn't have both Kotoamatsukami eyes

yes.

Danzo had one. Itachi had one.

Knowing Kishimoto's track record, it'd probably make more sense that Tsukuyomi is unbreakable by a Tailed Beast, because let's face it, he's almost always favoured the Uchiha and the Sharingan over the Jinchuuriki and the Tailed Beasts.

Probably, but I don't want to jerk Uchihas more than I have to.

he had(or wanted who knows) to wait until he had the jutsu in both of his eyes, when he finally did and was going to use it, danzo took one.

Sorry user, but that's the way it's going. Boruto is gonna shoot his load all over how cool Sasuke is and his main love interest is half-Uchiha.

He never had Kotoamatsukami in his eyes, he had it in the crow. Unless you're talking about Shisui, at which point he still would have both because we've never seen him actually use Kotoamatsukami before that point.

What does /r9k/ do?

i'm talking about shisui.

Yeah. So he never actually used the Kotoamatsukami in that eye. He was ambushed before he could use the technique.

That scene is kind of hilarious if you imagine it.

>Alrighty, just gotta nail Fugaku with the ol' one-two and the village is sav- AW FUCK MY EYE

Dump them please.

wait what are we even talking about now.

shisui didn't wait for hiruzen, he also had to wait to use it both of his eyes. Once he was ready, danzo took one, and he used it to escape , because itachi noted it was on cooldown.

If you don't like OCShit, ignore the bottom half of this one.

* used the other one to escape *

Shisui and Itachi asked to go ahead with it, and Hiruzen told them to wait because he hoped diplomacy would win the day.

There's also no reason why he needed to wait for it in both his eyes as you said, as it's clearly shown one eye is enough to cast it.

> he used it to escape
Who, Shisui? You're guessing he used it. Not to mention he could've just gone "Give me back my eye" to Danzo.

nothing

maybe it's more powerful w/ both eyes, maybe there's slight variations, who knows, but shisui ran away and didn't use the jutsu when he only had one eye, so he had to been have waiting for both eyes to use it, otherwise he would have used it with one eye.

>Who, Shisui? You're guessing he used it.

he had to have to use it in the scuffle to escape otherwise there is no other way the eye was on cooldown when itachi got it.

> there is no other way the eye was on cooldown when itachi got it.
Poor writing and a truly crippling amount of retcons?

that too, but too be fair i don't think he planned on itachi being a " good " guy, the whole massacre is a mess.

Just sent this off for typeset. Title is "Naruto-kun, what's paizuri?"

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Source for this?

I remember those days. Holy fuck, could this have been farther from the truth.

This thread only convinces me that kishinoto's a hack and naruto is garbage. Genjutsu might as well not even existed. Why do people still care about it?

>Glasses make Sasuke look 50% gayer

Genjutsu ended up being the central threat of the plot.

You mean shitty eye cancer. It was a large part of why naruto was so shit.

Because of what could've been.

He looks like that hot English teacher everybody had, if I am going to be honest

The one that did or didn't touch his students?

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