So last night there was a thread where Sup Forums "btfo" Communism...

so last night there was a thread where Sup Forums "btfo" Communism, I noticed there really were no leftists itt debating any of your shit points so I wanted to respond

Essentially, it was a bunch of libertarian cuckolds cumming in their pants over how cool and smart business owners are and how they're better than the working class. The main point you all made was the owner provides the facility, the materials, pays the bills, etc etc. Who built the facility? He didn't, the working class did. Who made the materials? He didn't, the working class did. Who maintains the plants producing the electricity, the working class. We believe he (the business owner) is an unnecessary middle man who collects the surplus wealth created by labor. He took money from the bank, and succeeded in starting a business. Anyone with enough money is able to do this, it doesn't take brains or courage. Often times the people taking these chances have money to fall back on and risk nothing.

Anyway, I came to Sup Forums thinking you were all white nationalists- when in actuality you're just libertarian cucks who love Capitalism, banks, rich people etc, while simultaneously hating Jews and blaming the worlds problems on them.

Communism isn't a country, what are you, a globalist or something?

bump
globalism is a neoliberal idea

and your points seem no smarter. Saged

my point is private property and the owners are fucking useless and exist only to build wealth through the labor of his employees. But for some reason you cucks think this is cool and epic

Internationalism is akin to globalism, tankie. Only difference is that neoliberals still maintain some modicum of capitalism while nationalizing some industries.

if Stalin was a communist why did he lead the country? shouldn't the people have made the decisions?

>inb4 not real communism
the symbol you post behind is theirs

initiative is labor isn't it.

The most important thing you can do for the white race is keep your own life in order. Start with yourself. You must be competent, reliable, hardworking, and, above all, happy. Do people in your life trust and respect you? What does your family think of you? Are you capable of raising children? Racial politics doesn't have to be the only factor of your life. And if you can't achieve such things for yourself, then the chances are very high that you are not ready to be a political activist, either online or in real life. Because how can you make a difference for the race, for the lives of many, if you can't even make anything of your own, individual life? How can you make a real difference in society, when the greatest extent of your capacity is to be out-organized by jews on social media?

Always remember: we live in first world countries and have opportunity that most people born on this planet do not. Things aren't as good for us as they were for our parents. But billions of people in the third world would still kill to have the opportunities that you do right now. So take care of yourself! Work your ass off, every day, to build a good life for you, and for your family. You have the power to create yourself. Clear your mind of self destructive thoughts, and keep yourself focused on realistic goals. Work hard, but also do fun and wholesome things with real people in real life. That is very important. Nothing on the internet should ever take away from your real life.

Yeah OP, the architects who design and plan the building should get the paid the same as the guys who pour the concrete! Or the guy who has to do all of the file taxing, scheduling, day-to-day operations, bill paying, hiring and supervision as the guy who flips the burgers! It all makes sense now.

The owner has to create the business in the first place.

Why don't we ever see communist-styled businesses? Where somebody builds a business and turns it over to the workers, or a large group of workers come together to form their own business?

Oh yeah, because it doesn't make an ounce of sense.

There will always be one or a few people at the top leading the ship. That's the nature of man.

Absolutely nothing would exist without the people breaking their backs to do the work, you reactionary fuck. The roads you drive, the house you live in, every piece of infrastructure you use on a daily basis. I don't understand Sup Forums's obsession with the bourgeoisie. Half of you come from working class families (though I wouldn't be shocked to find most of you are trust fund kids) and yet you defend the rich and the liberal to the fucking death.

Who organized the working class? How did the raw capital come from many different places and organize usefully to produce a meaningful effort? Is that organizational effort undertaken by the business owner a valuable effort?

I studied Advanced Marxist Economics in college. There are two major problems with Communism:

1. It doesn't take into account the risk associated with business and investments. According to Marxists, as long as you have capitals, you will magically invest and earn more and more and more and never lose. It doesn't take into account the supply-demand of the market, and how new, savvy people replace the old ones, creating values for everyone with competitions.

2. It doesn't take into account small business people working for themselves without any labour. According to Marx, there are only two classes: capitalists and workers. However, there is a class which doesn't fit Marx's definition: solo small business owners who have no labors except themselves and love what they do. Are they oppressing themselves?

3. The "Transformation of Price" problem. According to Marx, the labour theory of value dictates the value of a goods or service based on the hours of workers on it. However, that "value" cannot always be the same as the goods' "price" on the market. Ex: A catapult built by 100 workers with 1000 hours will worth 1000*100 = 100,000 unit of labour values, but worth $0 on the market nowadays.

That doesn't mean Capitalism is the perfect system. As Marx points out correctly in Das Capital, when people struggle for limited resources there are deemed to be significant disparities between the rich and the poor, which can lead to social unrest. A system like the American School of Economics, or regulated capitalism, can fix these problems.

Feel free to copy my post anytime you see a communism sympathizer.

The only debate I need to have regarding communism is which caliber munition produces the most aesthetic Bolshevik brain spray against concrete.

apparently you didn't pay attention because Marxists acknowledge everything you just said.

Are you an ancom, socdem or a tankie?
What nation do you identify as a superior model to the establishment of communism?
t. not gommie

I think it's pretty clear to me that libertarianism is actually closer to "communism" than capitalism, as it inevitably incentivizes the erosion of national identities and borders to draw in scabs.

>watch his partners get fucked
>claim chad libertarian is a cuck
wew some projection

>I think it's pretty clear to me that libertarianism is actually closer to "communism" than capitalism,
I choked laughing so hard

wow. Libertarians (mostly ancaps) just want capitalism without the state, retard.

Did you read his books? Which books did you read?

I have spent a lot of times reading his books, his researches, both arguments for and against his points, and spent a lot of times in my Marxist professor's office and argue with him.

Even if new Marxists acknowledge everything I said, communism is NOT the answer. As I have said, Das Capital is a good book because it points out flaws in capitalism, but communism is NOT the answer of capitalism.

So you acknowledge the problems and... don't refute them or offer solutions? Are you retarted?

>Yep, they were are all useless middlemen, the smart working class needs no one coordinating them, there's no need for authority, sure thing, it works just fine.

Have you ever worked? I mean, at least with more than one person?

No, communism is the goal, socialism is the answer. Workplace democracy, workers owning the means of production, the private property owners cut out of the equation.

> I wAnTeD tO rEsPoNd
> iT wAs A bUnCh Of LiBeRtArIaN cUcKoLdS cUmMiNg

What is your answer to China, where the opposite appears to work better for capitalist AND socialist interests, contrary to Venezuela, where overt Marxist-Leninism with castizo characteristics has had an inarguably devastating effect on their economy and people?

Do you identify something uniquely difficult about pairing domestic protectionism with socialism?

Capitalism is as evil as communism

You're still ignoring the employers contributions, peoples abilitiy to transfer property, who claims property and what their capital represents/harkens back to. Nice try mate, better luck next time aye?

>communism is the goal, socialism is the answer
WTF does that mean? Like China and Vietnam which always claim like that but are actually National Socialism/State Capitalism model?

>Workplace democracy,
So no manager, everyone will just magically work as hard as possible?

>workers owning the means of production
In reality, there will be a "Politburo" Committee are masters and everyone as slaves.

>private property owners cut out of the equation
Which means everyone has to bribe Party members to get private property.

Go to Venezuela, Cuba, Vietnam, China right now for reality check. Ask former Soviet members for reality check.

Hey OP I found something I think youd like.

You don't have to use government force to live in your fantasy world. Just follow these steps:

1. Start a worker co-op. Show that your system is more productive by banding together with your fellow socialists.

2. Start a living co-op. Show that your system produces a higher standard of living by co-owning an apartment or neighborhood with your fellow socialists.

3. Start a financial institution with your fellow socialists. Redistribute your wealth and anything else you would like to do. Prove that people have higher standards of living when they all get the same reward.

You could start those things right now with all the other people who think as you do without trampling on the rest of us. A peaceful revolution is completely possible if your ideas are truly better.

If only communism was pro-white

He doesn't have an answer, it's just ShareBlue shitposting as usual.

>So no manager, everyone will just magically work as hard as possible?
Why would people work any less? If we owned the means of production we'd have a bigger stake in the success of our work, rather than working just for our next paycheck and the wealth of the owner we'd be working for the collective good of all of us. If someone is slacking off we'd vote to let him go.

>Who built the facility? He didn't, the working class did. Who made the materials? He didn't, the working class did

Who paid the working class to do these things? Who gave the working class the idea to do these things?

If it wasn't a business owner, a "capitalist", providing these things, then why didn't the workers just do it on their own anyway? Oh yeah, they did not like either the material resources or the mental spark in order to do so.

Just remember not to earn more money than your colleagues, remember that you are nothing but the useless middleman.

I agree 100% the problem is finding leftists who actually bring their ideas into the real world. Many on our side are more wrapped up in identity politics and arguing online than actually organizing

You mean unemployed.

>Who gave the working class the idea to do these things?
the demand for the service or goods? The capitalist see's that demand and takes advantage of it. If the owners disappeared tomorrow the demand would still be there...

Many such cases!

If only OP read of Adorno and didn't have a cock in his mouth

>we owned the means of production
As I said, in reality there will be a "Politburo" Committee are masters and everyone as slaves.

Doesn't matter if you're in China, Cuba, Vietnam, Soviet, Venezuela, or any other communist countries.

You don't understand the Law of Power are you? The power must ALWAYS be fulfilled, and the vacuum of power must always be fulfilled. It will never be ALL workers' productions. It will always be a centralized committee

heh demand for what? a tractor? or a john deer?

If the people decide they like functional tractors and yours are boxy useless shits. is there still demand? So now you have a blackmarket and a factory floor full of tractors noone wants.

so then refute his points or provide some form of counterargument

if the working class already knew of the need and failed to do anything about despite having the means to do so that proves that they are less intelligent than the business owners/capitalists and are lucky to be employed by them

how does it acknowledge them?
by admitting it doesnt work?

You're exactly on the money.

Communism fails because people consider representative government as the most moral system. The more they need to govern, the less people will want to do the governance work, so they will hastily form a poorly designed republic, which becomes corrupted quickly.

Free Markets are the systems which requires the least amount of government, so there is the least amount of lost rights and the slowest long term rate of corruption, in general.

>what is global revolutionary communism

Okaykid.jpg

Please save yourself some time and post another website you won’t change their minds about anything, and it isn’t worth debunking their bullshit

You sure have never even thought about the possibility of creating your own business and have no idea the work this entails.

So the boss finds or creates the demand, you kill the boss and that's it? No more need for any middle man? Companies don't need to find or create new demands, expand, no nothing?

Are you fucking mental?
>sees flag
Oh, I forgot

It'd be nice if you actually debunked anything for a change.

As /leftypol will ban me for making me a thread I'll ask you smart people here, how will you get rid of currency

nice proxy shill.
ah when you need to pretend you have friends to save face.

Yes, please leave.

Quality post

>why do i keep losing in an environment where I can't ban people that disagree with me!!

how many times do you have to lose before you realize the problem is actually you?

I notice that faggots like you who are supposedly for the “working class” can never be found on job sites. I’ve worked construction for over a decade and I’ve literally never met a commie faggot on a job. You guys are always in college or living off of welfare or your parents’ money. The thing you’re forgetting in your stupid rant is that the people who built those buildings were paid for their labor and they did so willingly. You’ve obviously never run a company or you wouldn’t be so cavalier about how easy it is to do. You seem to think it’s basically guaranteed that you’ll make a profit as long as you have the money to invest, but that’s only because you’ve never taken a real risk in your life. Keep pushing it faggot. I wish you retards would really try a violently revolution. The working class that you claim to fight for would kill you all in an instant, and rightfully so. You are all such pompous faggoty tools of the establishment.

You already know, man. Not real communism. Literally every time and they're right, because communism is literally impossible.

As yo can see these people don’t have any original arguments and don’t think of much beyond name calling and strawmans most of them already have deep seated beliefs and won’t give them up. You should find another website if you want to bring people to our side.

This. we had a college kid show up at our factory this one time.
Kids fucking useless.
Cant figure out basic shit, and needs to be babysitted all day.
the whole spaced out on the job trying to talk about communism.
Too weak to pick up boxes and load truck.
leaves early and never came back.
Fucking useless fucks

YOU CANT RESPOND TO A THREAD THAT HAPPENED LAST NIGHT user I...

>doesn't take smarts to own a business
>owners plan ahead and lower their risks
haha what a moron

Because someone has to organize shit you literal mongoloid. You think the working class is some unified body with one will and mind? Grow up, the working class is a bunch of people with certain skills and abilities who can offer those specific skills. People who start businesses contribute

A) Their own skills
B) the ability to organize others collective skills efficiently

If these business owners are able to organize and direct efficiently, the business will grow and employ more people and create more wealth for everyone involved

Nobody is saying building something doesn't require back breaking work from the working class. Capitalism is simply the best way to organize and compensate the working class

what now your proxy is going to post a link to your fucking blog? Go cry us a river somewhere else faggots

m8 I've worked in construction, agriculture and factories.

...

Who supplied the capital to build the building and buy the material and pay the workers? Congrats you discovered what a construction business is.

We remember. You still owe me three hours on your first day fucknuts

if human organization is so easy then why is your revolution taking so long?

I can tell you for a fact that I won't and neither will you and there is science to back this up. Ever work on a school project? Research shows the larger the group the less people feel obligated to contribute and this is small scale,

>siding with Jewish Bolsheviks who would ruthless enslave or exterminate your people
>not takong the nation socialist pill and fighting global capitalist tyranny while simultaneous ly freeing the peoples of the world

Pleb

Kek

>Hello, I'm here for the construction job

You do realize people like plumbers, electricians, welders and alot of skilled labor jobs make more than most office workers or business owners.

you do realize we make fun of these people too. They're literal larpers

Communism only works in theory because in practice there will be people who unfairly take advantage of the system and corrupt it.
>b-but that's not real communism since it's not 100% perfect!

Oh nooo, people have to WORK to make THINGS? I NEVER realized that!

Maybe you should stop being a stupid fucking commie talking complete nonsense. Anyone can do manual labor or flip burger or make coffee. That's why the wages are so low. It takes a more special person to keep them on the right track, to have a vision for the project.

Because people don’t feel empowered so they won’t even entertain the idea of creating a better world if they don’t believe it is possible.

I have literally no reason to support communism.

as opposed to the "real" communists?
im guessing they all have tenure.

Well first you have to kill a lot of people. Then you issue c-coupons to make sure people don't take more than their share, it's not money!

>trips of truth

As opposed to you? How many people have you killed yet?

>Anyone with enough money is able to do this
This is a good troll

> Wants to create a socialist business with a bunch of people who do nothing but bicker all day

Yeah, good luck with that OP

>Feel free to copy my post anytime you see a communism sympathizer
Done
6/10 alright troll, not great

The lack of incentive to work”? Why would you think communism has a “lack of incentive to work”? If anything, the fact that there isn't a capitalist behind you focused only on profit but rather you're working to help your community gives me more of an incentive to work.

… unless you don't give a damn about your community and like being a wage slave is that you? If that is the case, I can see why you would think there is no “incentive to work” in communism.

>anyone I don’t like is a troll I won’t even bother to make my own arguments though I need someone smarter than me to do that
Lmao

>You should find another website
Yes, if you'd both kindly fuck off back to r*ddit that'd be great

kek

> Wants to create a socialist-style-share-everything kind of business with people who do nothing but bicker all day

Yeah..... Good luck with that OP

the ultimate flaw you have with this argument is that if the workers were actually smart enough or skilled enough to run the businesses themselves they would already have their own businesses

you want people who are shit and suck ass at business to run the business... that is just a disaster before it even starts. there is a reason communism has never worked even one time in the history of all of humanity ever.

you are basically saying the equivalent of "yeah even though they went to medical school and have been doctors forever,honesty, their patients should be in charge of the medical treatment/examinations/procedures the doctors are just an unnecessary middleman."

Community being the guys yours fleecing senseless.
Party officials always get there bread.
Anyway preaching communism is a paid jewish shill.
seriously kneck yourself
become an hero user.

If you want to bring people to your side maybe find a better argument you fucking brainlets.

>hurr durr anyone can start a business
>hurr durr people who start businesses aren’t even risking anything
>hurr durr a mega billionaire kike banker or media mogul is the same as an average joe who starts a business and makes a nice, comfortable living
>hurr durr the guy who works 16 hour days to get a business up and running is just a middle man collecting my surplus wealth
Christ you people are fucking insufferable. If it’s so easy why don’t you faggots all start businesses and pay your workers the same amount that you pay yourselves? It’s literally that simple according to you retards, so fucking do it already and stop whining. Be a man for once in your life you fucking pussy

also
>reactionary

Why are commies obsessed with this stupid term? You could say communism is just as """reactionary""" because it's stupid poor people demonizing the rich just because they were jealous of the house they lived in. Maaaybe communism made a little more sense in pre-Soviet Russia when the poor had it reeeally bad but nowadays it's mostly (ironically) bourgeois twenty year olds that work at coffee shops and record stores whining about how they can hardly afford the new iPhone.

i can't argue with libertarian cucks anymore

you're all fucking stupid lol

>my point is private property and the owners are fucking useless

god you're fucking tedious

Sounds like you got fired a lot for being a lazy fuck who kept complaining and couldn’t get shit done. I would pay a month’s salary to watch you try to exist on a wilderness survival show. Man, I wish there was a way to make that happen. Also, I notice you still haven’t addressed the risk and work involved in running a business. Probably because you’re a mentally defunct half nigger, like most commies

The ultimate redpill

This copypasta will always fall on my deaf ears since the last decade. I have seen the abyss, faggot.

I actually agree with this point. There is barely any incentive to work under capitalism, besides paycheck. I mean, depressed, fat americans with their opioid crisis really do not have a right to argue this. Most of them are miserable.

Because people DON'T have a natural incentive to work under communism. That's why the communist leaders have to force them to. Even if they have to do to stay alive, which is what has always happened and will always happen Communist revolutionaries eventually realize their mistake once things get way worse than they were before the "hellish capitalist" society.