The concept of an Ally/Hero of Justice pops up all the time in Japanese media. Anime, Live Action stuff, Games, etc.
So to you, Sup Forums, who is your ideal Ally of Justice? Who represents what you think embodies all the qualities of a true hero who fights for what you think Justice is?
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For me it's Goku.
Can any other character fit the role better? I think not.
Does Goku even fight for Justice?
Or are you saying a good fight is justice?
True Ally of justice.
He is justice itself.
This guy. Because he stops the baddies, has fun while doing it and doesnt suffer moral dilemmas.
INFERNO COPPU
I wish the Devil May Cry Anime got more love. It's actually not bad.
Not amazing, but not bad.
>Who is your ideal Ally of Justice
A hero is the one who chooses to the greater good over everything and lets no one get in their way. Even if it kills their own happiness and breaks them down.
The hero is the one who sacrifice others to achieve the best outcome possible.
I love heroes and people that want to save everyone expecting nothing in return, but "justice" is a really terrible thing to represent.
The fact justice isn't a static ideal makes it a mess of selfishness, greed and ego stroking.
Life isn't black and white and while someone might do bad for the sake of doing bad it's barely ever the case and even if it is can you really use "justice" as an excuse to murder the shit out of them in glorious combat? Chances are that they had loved ones, dependents, that sort of thing, and removing this person from their lives would affect it in such a way as to be harmful, where is it then the justice for these people who did no wrong yet suffer because of you? Are they guilty by association? Would you curse someone to the life of an orphan in the name of "Justice" simply for existing?
There's also the fact removing these people would cause others to try to take their place, causing more needless suffering of the innocent because you didn't actually pull the weed from the root.
Some would call for the death of hundreds to be Justice while others would call for the death of those that carried out such justice to be justice itself.
Justice is what the powerful use to exempt themselves from scrutiny and Justice is also what the weak levy against the powerful to weaken their grip.
What the hell even is justice if it means something different to so many people and how can anyone ally themselves to it?
If you want to save someone and be a hero, that's fine, but holy shit, the moment justice gets thrown in for a reason it just becomes a mess.
It's nothing more than a feel-good powertrip for people with messiah or hero complexes with none of the perceived consequences because of a feeling of moral superiority.
Just a father and husband from a dystopian future who loves sentai
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The greatest ally of justice is a person who inspires another to at least try to make things better for everybody else.
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Definitely Kirito. He takes his experience as the "hero" of the death game and applies it to other arcs and future experiences in order to protect the world he loves. I really like the whole "Black Swordsman" epic that's tied to his character and how it is a recurring theme at the climax of some high-stakes battles Kirito gets involved in. I really do love his character as an LN / Web novel fan of the series.
Imouto is Justice.
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Does Flat contribute to justice or is it just a trait of Justice?
You mean american dub goku? Cause...toriyama outright states that him fighting for the good guys is more like a happy coincidence then anything else.
Rance, the only true hero to ever walk the lands, saves the day and gets the babes
Found the animefag who's missing out on a great series. I'd suggest giving the source material a shot, considering it continues to sell while 'good' anime doesn't.
Fire sisters are justice
Yes.
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A villain who protects other villains from heroes.
That's a true ally of justice. Standing up for those who no one else will stand up for.
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>A hero is the one who chooses to the greater good over everything and lets no one get in their way. Even if it kills their own happiness and breaks them down.
>The hero is the one who sacrifice others to achieve the best outcome possible.
Yeah nobody will stand up for villains because the villains are too busy killing or eploiting them...
All Might
I hope that in the series the topic is further discussed. There are lot of fakes who are only for the fame and/or money
For me its Kefka - intelligent, nihilistic, and a wicked sense of humour.
>Found the animefag
I wasn't trying to hide
>I'd suggest giving the source material a shot
Perhaps I will one day. Admittedly, I never got through the entire anime, which is something I usually fling shit at people for doing before making an opinion on a series. I watched the first 10 episodes and got turned off to the whole thing because I found Kirito to be incredibly annoying and the premise of the world to be lackluster. I didn't think of it as a good rendition of the "Trapped in a game world and trying to escape" story
>considering it continues to sell while 'good' anime doesn't
Band wagon thinking. That's the same sort of logic that dictates One Piece and Naruto must be good simply because they are popular
I think it's touched upon when All Might talks about why he chose Deku, and why he gave Deku One-For-All over TinTin.
Deku and All Might want to save everyone, while Nighteye and TinTin are more of the mindset of saving as many as they can.
>Kirito is annoying
How? Yeah he's strong, but I'd rather have a badass strong protag over someone like Subaru who relies on other characters to carry him through every fight / arc.
>Source material
Admittedly lightyears better than the anime. Mother's Rosario (season 2) was really the only source-material-accurate arc so far. Other arcs had a lot left out.
>Band wagon
True, just was trying to point out that there is a reason that it's being further adapted. The LN is very-well written, it's really up to A-1 to bring the quality over to the anime.
And still Nighteye and TinTin are more hero material than say, Uraraka (who is in for the money) Mineta (He wants to be cool) or the woman who has snakes in her hair (who is mostly for the fame)
Every hero need a wife. Everything can be healed with love.
>How? Yeah he's strong, but I'd rather have a badass strong protag over someone like Subaru who relies on other characters to carry him through every fight / arc
How powerful he is presents the main problem. Combine that with the fact that he essentially has game knowledge that borderlines on the meta and the world has a tendency to just lie on its back and let him walk all over it makes any conflict he encounters seem trivial. To be clear, I'm not overtly opposed to an overwhelmingly powerful MC in a story like this. Hell, I'm a pretty huge fan of Overlord. But when you have a character like that, it shouldn't be about "fighting the enemy to escape the world!" like it is here, or at least that's how I saw it
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>2017
>Catastor
This card was good like 6 years ago.
I don't believe in justice.
Ok, how good is LN compared to anime, at least characterisation and scenes wise?
Because I watched through both seasons and while I did find it fairly entertaining, it was more along the lines of "so bad it's good".
It's kind of weird in a universe where heroism is just a legit career for work.
That's a fair point, I can understand how the whole 'escape via winning' premise can seem lackluster when the MC of the show is strong as hell. That being said, I wouldn't think that Ainz is that different, aside from him wanting to conquer the world instead of 'clear' it. The reason I like Kirito so much isn't really because he cleared Aincrad and saved all the waifus, it's how that becomes part of his mentality later in the novels. Him clearing Aincrad is really just a premise for all that. Kirito's inner monologues and struggles really shine in the later volumes of the light novel, which is why I like him so much. Sadly, there isn't much of that inner thought shown in the anime adaptations.
Aside, where are you reading Overlord? I wanted to start on those novels too, as I just finished the latest SAO LN about a week ago.
>who is your ideal Ally of Justice?
A society in which individuals protect themselves and their interests while interfering with the integrity and interests of others as little as possible.
Having a single individual force his sense of justice on society as a whole disqualifies him from being an ally of justice since it ignores the importance of personal responsibility and self-reliance.
If you cannot accept that people can put themselves in bad situations and suffer from it, you'll eventually be unable to accept that individuals can put themselves in advantageous situations and benefit from them.
This leads to communism, the cancer that destroys humanity.
If the main difference here is what is presented in the anime and LN with regards to inner monologue, then I'll have to give the LN a try eventually
>Aside, where are you reading Overlord?
google skythewood overlord. Their site has volumes 1-9 and there is a link on that site to a blogspot that has volumes 10 and 11. Volume 12 drops in August.
If I were to give the LN a 10/10, I'd probably give the anime a 6 on the same scale. Characters are especially developed much further in the light novels than they are in the anime. Take Death Gun for example; in the books he is a dark, looming threat seeking revenge who could strike at any moment, whereas in the anime he's just some edgy-looking guy that's salty over getting his guild's ass kicked in Aincrad. It's really about the atmosphere that is set in the novels, and how A-1 doesn't really do the best job of porting 100% of the tone over to the anime.
On another note, volume 9 (where Season 3 would begin) can almost stand alone from the rest of the series, and it's easily the best arc yet. If interested, I'd really recommend you jump into it and see what you think.
This is bait, right?
See about the inner thoughts. The books really sell the mood and the mentalities of each character.
And I will, thanks. I really enjoyed the anime and seeing Ainz absolutely shit on other people who thought they were strong, when they really amounted to nothing.
Masayoshi was pretty cute desu.
Read the threads. If you immediately dismissed the series or only watched the anime, you wouldn't be able to understand where I'm coming from.
Huh, thanks might give it a read then.
I read the first book after having watched the first season, and the book is even more shit than the anime.
Whatever you say lol. Keep the meme going and maybe it'll get cancelled.
Heroes fighting for justice are annoying. They're never all that impartial themselves, so it usually feels like justice is a convenient excuse to enforce their own values. The best heroes are defenders of the weak. They don't project their own bullshit morals of right and wrong, they just protect what's important to them. Who could find fault with that?
This girl protecting a wandering hobo with the power of COURAGE is my ideal form of justice
>The best heroes are defenders of the weak
>They don't project their own bullshit morals of right and wrong.
user that is a contradiction. By classfying people as "weak" you are projecting the idea that they cannot stand on their own and that they need someone to defend them instead of letting the "weak" person rise up or defend themselves.
"Defenders of the weak" when compared to "Heroes fighting for justice" are the lowest of scum. Rather than cheer the "weak" on or tell them how to improve themselves and stand on their own two feet or train them, they rather be the doormat to fight their battles for them. To let the "weak" put their burdens on the "Defender" and become dependent on the "Defender"
A Hero is something you strive to become with your own two hands.
A Defender is something you become dependent on with the hands of somebody else.
He gambles with entire planets just to get a good fight. Same with vegeta when he let cell get 18.
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Justice is pretty cute.
If Kamen Rider is scum, then I'd rather be Scum than a human.
But I'm on Sup Forums, so I got that covered
I can hear the theme
There are three kinds of heroes that I like
Protectors.
1.The ones that take care of the people who can't take care of themselves and take the blows that they can't handle.
The righteous warriors
2.The people who go out of their way to fight the wrongs in the world and stand in it's way or ultimately take it down.
The heroic leaders
3.The people who teach others through example or word to take on heroic qualities.
To internalize the good and fight against and lessen the evils in themselves and the world one small act of bravery and self control at a time.
Honestly, i genuinely believe it to be Shirou. he understands that a "hero of justice" is a completely unrealistic concept, but is regardless an ideal you should strive to be every day. Helping an old lady across the street, helping a stranger push their broke down car, getting a cat out of a tree. Be as close to a "ally of justice" as you possibly can. Shirou is the everymans hero, which is the only one that matters.
What's funny about Shirou is that I can see him being a Hero of Justice even in the Heaven's Feel route. He's not condoning the evil that Sakura is doing or the blood she's shedding, he's trying to save her because he knows what brought her to this point were things largely out of her control. She's not free of culpability, Kirie points that out pretty clearly, no number of rapes and brainwashing totally absolves you of the decision to kill. But she's not truly evil either. That's why when Shirou decides between saving her and staying on his path his mind shatters if he picks the later. His world view can't process somebody who has any amount of innocence yet cannot be saved.
So when he decides to abandon the Path Of The Superhero to save Sakura, he is still being a hero of justice because he resolves to protect everyone from her while he's trying to save her. He simply accepts the possibility that he might not succeed at that and accepts that if any more die the blood is equally on his hands because he's decided that Sakura is the only person in the world who is not expendable in this scenario. The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many.
That's also why the Shirou from Prima Illya 3rei is such a badass, because he's that Shirou taken to a further extreme. He won't accept a path to saving the world that includes the suffering and death of an innocent, no matter how dire the situation for humanity. If the human race will die without the shedding of innocent blood, better that it die.
That's fucking justice right there, lads.
I know this isnt Sup Forums but was really hoping to open this thread and see the fuhrer as first picture
I barely remember that show. What happens to her again?
RIP AND TEAR UNTIL IT IS DONE
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>If the human race will die without the shedding of innocent blood, better that it die.
Then you ain't really saving shit, "hero."
The prpoblem is actually the other way around. Every arc boss he encounters has bigger advantages than Kirito. He is hyped up, then jobs and still manages to bullshit his way around. The first time was fine because the difference wasn't that much but he never fights any arc boss by himself, he is always ganging up on them.
On SAO Kirito supposedly had the best reaction times because of the time he spent on the VR, which makes the synchronization better. Then the boss is the guy who has been living inside the game world even before the beta launched and with special equipment. The second arc he needed a whole army to buy him enough time to get thru fodder. The third one had super duper special rifle wth special sword while Kirito had to use starting equipment and had a retard sniper to help him out. The fourth time around he fought against an administrator and lost a brother fighting it.
He saving the "soul" of the human race. That's not nothing. Even UBW Shirou knew that using corrupt means to save the world would lead to tragedy. Its why Archer became the broken bitter shell he was and tried to kill himself, and why Shirou found to resolve to never give into despair in his impossible quest.
If you allow the human spirit and its ideals to get killed to save humanity, you haven't saved humanity. You've just brought it a different kind of doom.
> as I just finished the latest SAO LN about a week ago.
Spoonfeed me senpai. I stopped when he went potato
Meh, the only Shirou worse than Alter Shirou is the plant one.
I've got a soft spot for episodic series.
Dante's daily life was a nice thing to see.
Post your ideal ally of justice, then post your ideal enemy of justice for them to fight.
I like you. Are you into men? no homo
Tell that to Kiritsugu.
There are two boats...
But we literally got to where we are today by shedding innocent blood.
Loads of it, in fact. I'm not convinced that a little more would be the make or break for humanity's soul.
>Unrepentant sophist
>Righting wrongs through violence is apparently his true will
>One dead fairy away from potentially turning into the worst monster mankind has ever seen
Your ideal ally of justice is dubious as fuck senpai.
It depends on how flat-and-toned-yet-soft your midriff is. In the absence of womanly hips, boobs and ass, I can live with sexy womanly abs.
If Kerry was a firefighter, then Angry Manjew would flood the Earth to prevent all fires. There's a time and place for everything.
Also
>don't do anything
>both boats sink
That's not really a good outcome, either.
An Hero of Justice would argue that we got where we are today IN SPITE of shedding innocent blood, not because of it.
He would also argue that the extinction of survival of the human race has never been decided by that shedding of innocent blood or decision not to do so, and if that moment ever came it WOULD in fact be make of break for the collective human soul. Choosing to kill a total innocent if it saves the whole is the ultimate extreme of utilitarianism, and utilitarianism is antithetical to heroism and justice.
If we've killed innocent people for no real reason and we still maintain some level of decency, how exactly would doing it for a purpose just magically cause us to go full on evil?
Never mind the fact that neglecting to do the latter may lead to many cases of the former in acts of futile desperation.
I'm ottermode with a solid six pack :(
In anime or any other form of entertainment, hardly any.
The average hero is hardly ever placed in a position in which he has to make a tough choice, and if he's ever put in that position, a path is written so that he gets an ideal third choice that allows him not to have to make any difficult choice - self-sacrifice doesn't fall into what I'm referring to as "tough choice" since it doesn't pose any ethical dilemma.
Normally, anti-heroes would fall into my category of what an ideal hero is, since they don't have to be tied to the romanticised idea of what a hero is. However, the average anti-hero is written as some chap who has no qualms whatsoever about killing anyone in his path that isn't innocent, but is ready to save those in need and kill the bad guys if the situation arises. So, again, given the lack of a philosophical/ethical position, you hardly get any real ethical dilemmas to place the anti-hero in.
To give an example, in F/sn you have a character like Archer, who is aware to there's only so many people you can save, and ultimately you'll have to make tough calls on whom you'll be saving. However, his story is just merely mentioned, and not really one you get to follow. Furthermore, the story focuses more on Shirou and how he's a broken person, than on the idea of justice, the value of life or the concepts of right and wrong, which are either superficially described or simply not expanded upon in the slightest. The idea of being a hero of justice is mainly there as a manifestation on the fact that Shirou is clinging on to something, because he's trying hard to deny his own self-awareness, since he's a broken guy due to a traumatic event in his past.
There are 2 instances in which the MC has to make a tough call, 1 in Fate and 1 in HF. However, in the former there was nothing he could really do, and in the latter he had already decided to would drop the ideal of justice to make his lover his priority.
I feel like this conversation has reached a point of irreconcilable philosophcal difference in how a theoretical hero would view the universe. The question of whether the hero believes there are larger metaphysical consequences for his actions vs if the hero believes there is a void of larger meaning for his actions has a significant influence on how the scales would balance in this question.
There's really no point in continuing the debate if we can't agree over whether or not the methods you employ as a hero mean anything. If you think they don't and only the outcome matters, then you'll always think the type of hero I'm describing is wrong if the outcome is one your values determine is unacceptable, because only outcome matters by your way of thinking.
In other words YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF JUSTICE!
It ok, we can still be friends. Just not sexy friends.
>Heh, let us make a series bout lolis molesting each other!
>Let's also make the former main character the coolest version of him he's ever been and give him endlessly badass scenes!
Does it help that it is a plot-point that the character is insane and dead inside?
I don't entirely disagree, but sometimes you gotta make the tough decision, especially if literally our entire existence is hanging in the balance.
In other words, bitch I reject your justice and substitute my own!
No, Archer motivation wasnt that, Archer attempted to save everyone to the point he made a contract to be a counterguardian.
Now what counterguardians is, its a janitor ... they clean up the mess so his existence from that point was just cleaning the mess, NOT preventing it from happening.
Archer is someone who in attempt to save everyone eventually was put on a situation were he CANNOT say anyone.
His character is very much how it can come biting you in the ass.
Shirou is the one that understands that he cannot save everyone, he can try there are limits but that only comes in Heaven's Feel when he is forced into having to make a decision.
I mean, the Lolis were having endless badass scenes while they were molesting each other long before Shirou showed up. Just saiyen'
But Shirou is is Shirou.
Fair enough! Now we shall have an epic fucking sword duel to decide which one is right!
But not until the season finale. We need to save up some budget for that so lets spend 6 more episodes talking it out first.
(thanks for the fun debate btw)
Ask Uncle Sam, he's never wrong
>No, Archer motivation wasnt that, Archer attempted to save everyone to the point he made a contract to be a counterguardian.
Yes, in one circumstance in which the people he tried to save were all fated to die. He made the contract to be able to reverse their fate.
However, he was already choosing sides even before was he made a CG. He was okay with that. This was made clear in UBW and in Extra.
His issue started because, once he became a CG, he no longer had a choice, he just did what he was sent to.
>Shirou is the one that understands that he cannot save everyone
No, Archer knew this very well too when he was alive. His issue wasn't that he couldn't save everyone, but that as a CG he was merely cleaning up, and not doing any actual saving.
The difference between them is that Shirou got to know, through Archer, how shitty things could get and yet he still decided that the path of justice was worth following. It was that resolve, in the face of what awaited him, what changed Archer's decision.
Shirou probably also learned that contracts with the Planet were a bad deal.
Pffhhahaha
Could you all just read a few books before debating about this ? It'd be great if Sup Forums could have a debate using arguments that weren't debunked thousands of years ago.
Ed Elric is my Seigi no Mikata.
Shut up SAO shitter.
>who is my ideal hero
That one guy who whipped his dick out in front of a feminist parade in brazil. There's a picture of him leaning back with the crowd basically at his throat, but he has the biggest shit eating grin on his face. I wouldn't call him an ally of justice or anything like that, but that madman is my hero.