When it hapenned? Why do people hates when "ships" are mentioned?
Pic related is awful, had potential yes, but you can always rely on Kishi to let you down. Nowadays tough people seem to hate any kind of romance especially with main characters even if it's nicely done by competent writers.
Are there any couples/romance you ACTUALLY like in Shonen/Seinen?
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I don't hate Romance in Shonen, I hate Bad Romance in Shonen. Pic related is a fine example. For 300 something chapters, Naruto did not give one shit about Hinata and then him lifting her hand followed by a movie is the equivalent of waving around in neon lights 'Look, they like each other now fall in love and get married.'
The only possible redeeming factor is that it gave Yuki Kuwahara something to do for a while.
What's your take of good romance in shonen? For me FMA and Gintama have one of the best couples on the market.
...
>current year
>STILL salty
The problem of romance in shonen is that since the story is written aimed at young boys, the idea of romance will be in accordance with the vague "mommy and daddy fell in love, got married, and had a baby" worldview kids possess. Plus there's overall fear of shifting focus from the adventure or fighting. Too few shonens have the balls to actually incorporate a continual relationship. One series that springs to mind as good example is Eureka 7, since from the start it took focus on relationship, this did look like actual progression of it, from idealistic love, to selfish love, to selfless love, to mutual understanding. Although there's another way which is to represent characters as already in fully developed relationship, as demonstrated in Shaman King, though it did have troubles putting the message out since of the focus problem. Also, while it's not good way to of it, I don't mind the way Dragon Ball did it, when your main character is too battle-focused to care about love, just have him tricked into marriage and accept it as inevitability of life. Naruto represents the awful middle ground where the character has too little interest in his love interest, but is too adjusted human being to be oblivious to it, which results in the worst case scenario I talked about. Although I have to say I did find the final sequence of The Last to be very sweet.
Now if we get to shipping that's an entire different problem. Basically there are two kind of shippers: those that try to analize the characters and predict author decision to pair them (these usually stay quiet), and those that just take two characters they really like and try to convince themselves and everybody else that they'll totally be together. Second group is truly cancerous, since within each series there's a mass of different species of them, including those that picked endgame, and at every opportunity they'll start flinging shit at each other, since by their nature they suffer severe case of delusion.
Nanatsu does it right. No shipping, because almost everyone is paired off, and couples get enough screentime to make them belivable. And King/Diane a best.
>No shipping.
Now that's some feat.
Why do you faggots choose to ignore that he had at least two years to get to know Hinata better between the end of Naruto and The Last? I mean, sure if they had married inmediately after, it would be an asspull, but they fucking didn't. And bonding over the war and Neji's death was a starting point.
Seriously you retards keep spouting that shit without even thinking. By all means, keep doing it. Your butthurt is still as funny today.
>he had at least two years to get to know Hinata better
That's good, but the problem is, we didn't see that two years.
Why is it there aren't more shonen that do what Marvel and DC do and have the hero go through various relationships throughout his life before having a primary 'Mary Jane' or 'Lois' that will be the eventual main ship?
If BnA is anything like an homage to western superheroes, then Deku would be going through the various girls, experiencing break up etc before having his big ship with Ochako.
Nice reading, seems like you'd agree that the best romance for shonen is the subtle-one, like the couples I posted above. Like adult dirty-jokes it's goes over the head of the target-audience and don't interfere in the pacing of more battle-focused shonens.
The second group truly is cancer, they defy all logic, the author can throw it at their faces and they will still be in denial, but they stay mostly at tumblr.
Nips takes relationships more seriously than us.
Ochako and Deku is pretty meh atm, let's see how Toga will spicy things up in the upcoming arcs.
Because that's a dishonorable way of living for a young man.
I can agree with you on that sort of pair being the best commercial decision, so as to not hinder the dynamics, but personally I'd prefer a deeper well-developed relationship that we see over the course of the story.
I very much doubt Ochako will fall for it. Toga may fool a teacher, like Aizawa or even AM, but Ochako will see through the disguise.
What if you took the standard edgy rival or hot-blooded protagonist and made one of them a girl?
At this point, given the obsession most rivals end up having that many see as homoerotic, it'd be easiest to implement that kind of relationship.
I don't think they "hate" it but it's more of the problem with the crowd that reads it. Just take a look at TG and tell me that it wasn't sullied by raging autists who think that the author is wrong just because he wasn't pandering to their fucked up opinions that the characters should be gay and shit
Considering TG from the start was aimed at autists, it has nobody else to blame but itself.
Because it's almost always half assed. It's literally just shoved in there for the sake of giving the MC a breeding mare to create new characters for future generations.
Very seldom do shonen actually build it up in a satisfactory way. It's usually just a one-sided crush until the last chapters or timeskip epilogue and they are together.
Most of the times it's annoying fanboys and fangirls making a big deal of shipping because they self-insert despite how unimportant romance is to the plot. Them only caring about their ship makes them obnoxious to everyone else and therefore makes non-shipper audience hate every insignificant small thing that shippers go crazy over.
I dunno I don't watch garbage and I still oppose the mods allowing naruto trash on Sup Forums
peace
>he had at least two years to get to know Hinata better between the end of Naruto and The Last?
Yeah, offscreen so the audience didn't get a chance to see any progression and character development.
It's half-assed and lazy. Precisely why people think shonen romances are shit. Literally just pushing two characters together at the last minute because the manga is over and they need next generation characters.
I give NaruHina a pass because at least they are cute together, but all the ships that ended up together had zero build up and just magically ended up together in the epilogue. MAYBE you could say Shikamaru and Temari were sorta into each other before the end, but even that is being too generous.
I dunno if you like BNHA but Horikoshi has the potential to do that. The relationship of the main characters is built from the very beginning. Went something like this.
>Main character saves main heroine, is later saved by her.
>He develops a crush on her, spaggueti all over the place.
>Later they switch roles now is her who developed a crush and later love. Deku is not there yet. Now is Ochako who spagguetis.
>She thinks that's those feelings are in the way and choose to supress them. Good for her because everytime she tryes to act like Deku she fails miserably.
The next step for these two, will probably start with Toga and how she can shaken a relationship that was on the good side for so many time but now It became a delicate subject for Ochako.
Now what could really shake things out, is a possible relationship of Ochako and the AFO, she has the potential to be the next sucessor or maybe a temporary one.
The word here is "Bright" and how all the characters who know of AFO always say how the power should be passed on to someone with a bright personality. Horikoshi sure love his name wordplay, Uraraka means bright, you can also add the fact that she seems to be the only student who is concerned of Deku self-destruction, plus the way she said how she would like to experience power like that one day (altough she was talking about Bakugou at this occasion), you can also compare the way she looks at Deku to the way Deku looks at Allmight...
Pretty far-fetched, but I have the feeling that Hori has big-plans for her character.
Kind of sad how Sakura and Sasuke getting married ends up being just as everyone expected.
>Shonen/Seinen
I get the impression you don't actually know what these words mean and are really asking "Why don't people like romances in fighting series," and the answer is "Because the series is usually 99% about the action and action-related plot, while the romance is a shoddy afterthought."
For one thing comics have multiple authors that change from run to run. Manga only have one author working on it the entire run. Another thing is comic book protagonist are usually adults and manga protagonist are around 15 years old.
Lots of different shit can go on from author to author in comic books and they can drastically change the characters and their relationships depending on who is working on them but manga authors are just contained to one canon story.
The reader demographic of shonen can't relate to a 15 year old protagonist that goes through multiple relationships. Maybe they can relate to having a crush on a girl but having actual relationships with different girls is not something most shonen protagonist are even interested in. They are more idealistic and pure than real boys to only caring about their dreams, food, and nakama power over getting a girlfriend.
So why we don't forget about history too? Who cares about character development? Also why do we need words? Fuck it! Just throw action at it, action and tournaments! Let's DBS everything!!!
>Implying that a genre has to be the same shit over and over.
People are starting to hate romance in anime because they are getting more bitter about being kissless virgins and they used anime in the first place to escape realism but then they get reminded that they will never experience the same love that their precious fictional 2D characters and all the normies in real life get to have as romance and shipping starts to get ore frequent in anime.
>So why we don't forget about history too?
What?
> Who cares about character development?
Not most battle shounen authors, that's for sure. And when they do, it's most often still connected to the action/plot more than to their interpersonal relationships.
>>Implying that a genre has to be the same shit over and over.
Where did I say anything whatsoever about "has to be"? I'm describing the way the majority of these series are. They aren't about the romance, the authors don't focus on the romance, and so the romance predictably isn't very good. And then it's compounded by retarded shipperfags who flip out over the one page of subpar chemistry their couple gets every volume and pollute every community they touch with spam and shitty fanart.
>normies
> romance and shipping starts to get ore frequent in anime
Fuck off to /r9k/, Facebook, or whatever other shithole you crawled out of.
whent threw this intier thraid and no one posted the best shonen paring ever Kenshen had been thew hell and back threw out his life and the romance between him and Kaoru was great
I was obviously over-exagerating, because of course I know what a Shonen/Seinen series is, but there's no reason a romance subplot couldn't be well-done on it. People hates the idea of it somehow and the target audience isn't even part of it.
> whent threw this intier thraid and no one posted the best shonen paring ever Kenshen had been thew hell and back threw out his life
Are you having a stroke? This is some kindergarten-tier spelling.
This actually makes sense. Somehow...
>HURR DURR user PROVE ME WRONG ABLOOWEEWOOGY
Because character development and history are used to enhance and give greater stakes to actions scenes.
Romance does not do this. Romance takes away from the action because the entire crux of romance is about the development of a relationship romantically hence the name.
There is a reason why the romantic plot tumor trope came into existence and that's because of retards like you who wants to shove in romance into everything whether it actually fits or not.
Seriously kys, I bet you do faggot things like shipping as well.
>People hates the idea of it somehow
No, they don't hate the idea of it, they hate it in practice because it usually fucking sucks for reasons directly connected to the genre.
>whent threw this intier thraid
I'm tired of romances that last a thousand chapters with little more than hand holding.
What the hell do target demographics have to do with genres? CGDCT is as much seinen as Mushishi or plastic memories, which quite literally is a romance show.
Read my response to user.
This.
It's easier to understand, you know what kind os series I'm talking about, if you don't lurk more.
The answer to this is that it would be boring. Without any investment in the characters as humans it's just lines on paper.
Romance does this as well. That's why its ubiquitous throughout Western superhero fiction and the only reason it isn't in battle shonen is because the audience is ten. If you don't care about it either, then congrats you think like a ten year old.
>i am misusing terms, if you dont understand what I mean its not my fault for being retarded its yours for not being accustomed to my retardation
To be fair, I don't hate the pairing in your pic, I just think Kishimoto isn't a romance writer so he kept it on the side. That's what it really comes down to with these shounen. They aren't really meant to have romance or anything since romantic stuff is very low on the list of the shounen target demographic so the authors just have it in there as bait. The problem is they don't really develop it. They give moments of development inbetween 100-200 chapters.
If I had to immediately think of a romance in shounen I liked, it would be this one but the thing is Kenshin had a romantic element from early on. Many of these other ones do not.
>The problem of romance in shonen is that since the story is written aimed at young boys, the idea of romance will be in accordance with the vague "mommy and daddy fell in love, got married, and had a baby" worldview kids possess. Plus there's overall fear of shifting focus from the adventure or fighting.
This is essentially it.
Shounen, as a genre, is not really meant to have 'romance'. It's meant to have adventure, fighting, reaching goals, comedy, etc. Because the kids who its aimed at do not care for it as a priority. It only becomes one if the story had that kind of angle from the start which is not common at all.
That thing about shipping is fucking dead on.
>shounen
>genre
>I understood your message but I want to be a prick about it.
Yeah, that was a mistake. I should have said shounen-type stories are not really meant to have romance.
Kenshi having slept with other women and being used goods kills this pair.
Say, I wanted to get into Ruroni Kenshin. Is anime adaptation good or shall I just read the manga?
Actually I didn't, thats the problem. While I can see similarities in shounen, at least to some extend, emotions are a major selling point for seinen. Thats why its not only beserk and drifters that are part of it, but also oreimo, kuzu no honkai and oregairu. There are romances that are particularly written with older readers in mind (not that I understand how this trash would possibly appeal to older readers, but thats not my decision to make).
Try the live-action, it's one of the fewer gems of anime adaptation and since it's only the lenght of a movie you can decide if you want to go deeper and watch the anime/read the manga.
Definitely read the manga. The anime isn't bad but it doesn't adapt the whole thing and was literally cancelled because of too much filler.
Well, I have some friends who hates Casca, you ask why and their answer is that romance only makes the story worse, and that Berserk is not supposed to be some lovey-dovey shit.
I fail to see what's lovey dovey about Guts and Casca.
I don't have an issue with it as long as it's put off to the side, or complements the narrative. When I read about ancient & medieval heroes they usually have a romance in-between battling evil and training new powers/tools. There's nothing wrong with the hero's "happily ever after" including the love of a beautiful woman. Shit, being powerful and having a waifu is 99% of male daydreaming.
Your argument that since Western superhero fiction does romance means that Shounen manga must also do it is purely idiotic.
Western superheroes are meant to continue forever and thus more emphasis is placed on the relationship of the character rather than the action because we all know they will never ever truly kill off any of the big names.
Meanwhile although Shounen mangas are also meant to go on for a very long time, they are also meant to end and thus more time must be focused on the action scenes and not spend on romantic plots such as learning whether the other truly romantically love each other or learning to live together as a couple.
I will concede on some point on romantic elements being a possibility of improving the action scenes after giving the idea a bit more thought. Such as using a tragic romance between two lovers with largely differing political and/ore moral views could definitely add to the Shounen genre.
I like romance but I don't think its done well the vast majority of the time. It always feels like an afterthought only to rush the resolution in the final chapter.
This is likely intentional as they don't want the story to get bogged down with the romance (which theoretically is understandable enough) and frankly many authors flat out admit they have no idea how to write romance or female characters at all so it turns out to be shit most of the time.
Personally I think romantic sub-plots are the best option, but they need to be strong enough to be clearly present and building throughout the entire story, but not so strong it's overshadowing the entire main plot.
I would also like to see people starting a relationship halfway through the story. When something like it does happen it's usually a guaranteed flag and one of the partners is about to die or get kidnapped for the rest of the story.
I always like to see couples spending quality time together but you rarely ever see it as Japan only seems to be interested in the courtship phase, which personally I find much less interesting than the actual couple phase.
>because we all know they will never ever truly kill off any of the big names
And yet they die all the time in the movies.
Most shonen endgame "pairs" are very obvious from early on. The problem is that sometimes they're so obvious the mangakas feel like they don't need to give them much development beyond that. Usually it's just "character A likes the MC so character A will get them" which is fine in of itself but some relationship development is much needed.
>Most shonen endgame "pairs" are very obvious from early on.
I want to just echo this as loud as physically possible for everybody
are there even exceptions?
It's fine in general
Both halves of the romance have to be atleast somewhat likeable as characters for me to give a shit though. Your example of Naruto for example; personally I don't like Naruto the character that much. I know that a lot of other people don't like the character much either. Yet a lot of those same people like Hinata and the romance with him anyway? It's baffling to me
romance = otaku won't buy it, they have spent their entire lives without ever being loved by anyone and the mere thought of a relationship is comical
I generally disliked Shippuden but hearing about Sakura getting BTFO brought me back to Naruto. A few of the war arc fights were pretty badass and NarutoxHinata romance was adorable. Like diabeetus disney tier sweet.
>tfw this will never happen in the manga
why live
See Also: reddit.com
Knowing Sorachi he will probably end it by trolling us. Or maybe Gin will die, anyways have some faith their subplot will mostly likely have an ending.
I have faith in Gorilla-san.
Also thanks for the gif, it's fucking gold!
It's cause people want their fave characters to be happy even if they don't like the other in question. It's basically no different than waifuism in general. Why do people watch harems/love triangles/romcoms for their waifus to get with some other dude? It's cause they want them to be happy.
It's literally called GinTama, guys.
>When it hapenned? Why do people hates when "ships" are mentioned?
because shounen isn't about romance, Seinen is where you go for that shit.
i'm apathetic, unless it's done well.
if it's just there for gross/mass appeal to try and reel in some minimal viewers because of a focus group then that's lame. it's been proven that pointless romance does not equal instant female viewers.
if it's done poorly then that really grinds my gears. but if it's intentional and well written then i'm all for it. romance and love and all that jazz is like one of the five integral parts of the human condition so of course it matters to some people, it's a huge part of life. but if the story has nothing to do with love and it's just shoved in? lame.
Shonen aren't written for otakus, they're written for good little boys growing up to be effective members of the community.
> What's your opinion on ______ in ... Seinen?
Seinen is not an identifiable genre like shounen. You cannot make generalizations about it.
Hey, I'M a virgin (Not a kissless one but still) and I don't hate romance because I'm bitter, I hate it because of how poorly handled it is in anime and manga.
Hell I'm the guy who BEGS that we get romance series where the MC and Love go on actual dates and isn't just one note tsunderes beating up the MC and then they're married when the money stops coming.
Did you know that this series is considered shonen in Japan? Shonen is a demographic NOT a genre. Watch more anime and read more manna before you post next time.
>an identifiable genre like shounen
>shounen is a genre
? Things like battle shounen, sports manga, battle harem, pseudo intelectual shounen are genre, shounen is not.
>try to analize the characters and predict author decision to pair them (these usually stay quiet)
Biased. I've seen a lot of these shippers that analyze and over-analyze, they're far from quiet and take a huge part in shipping war.
Those two groups you describes are birds of a feather, and occasionaly merge. Shipping is a disease, that's it.
I like the way Toriyama does it. He puts it in there but doesn't dwell on it. Because the characters are so fleshed out you can make inferences about their love life. There are so many discussions about Vegeta and Bulma's relationship that goes way deeper than stories that dwell specifically on relationships.
Romance in writing has only two modes to make it interesting: There is the "ship mode" that focuses specifically on shipping two characters and "will they or wont they?"
Then there is the "drama mode" that tends to happen when two characters finally get together. The writer needs to put that couple in some stupid relationship drama because there is literally nothing else you can do with a romance to make it interesting in writing. Most people dont like this because it's often contrived and built on at least one character acting like an irrational dumbass.
>Hinata had to wait 3 years from her near death against Pain to get an answer to her confession
That's fucked up
You mistake people of second group for the first. The difference is what they use as their starting point. First group will look at existing evidences and draw conclusion, second group will start with their ship in place and will pick elements that they consider to prove or at the very least give enough leeway for their ship to exist. Person of the first group does not have a personal preference in ships, and he doesn't care how the author may toss around the pairings, they only do it to try and predict the writer's mind process, nothing more.