A Criticism of Eugenics and Master Morality

Hey Sup Forums I was thinking about the implications of a future eugenics society based on the non-Christian moral values of "might makes right". There are some implications that would make a society like this very likely to fall. I would like to use the Nietzschean concept of Master-Slave Morality for this.

Master Morality defines goodness as what is useful for the strong-willed master to achieve his great goal, good to them means ambition, pride, and power.

Slave Morality was built as a Reaction to master morality. Since the Slave, Weak willed people and anyone who is not "the best", find what they have (poverty, humility, meekness) as good and what they don't have (pride, greed, etc.) as bad.

A majority of mankind follows slave morality and they have no other choice, not everyone can be the best and you cannot blame people for being a force of conformity and ideology in the face of superior men they can never truly beat. Then there is the issue of Eugenics via genetic engineering. I can understand defending the white race but even if the only race left in the world is white the Eugenics imperative will continue.

Con't.

A society is made up of different individuals with entirely different jobs. Eugenics via genetic engineering promises the possibility of creating a "perfect" human. As a concept "Perfection" does not exist as a monolithic thing, people of different jobs will be completely different. The Eugenics Regime would create a caste system and also raise the posthumans in ideal environments to suite their roles. A scientist caste will be created and raised in an environment that encourages and maximizes scientific thinking. The warrior caste will also be the same with their own unique genes and environment. Eventually the desire for utmost perfection will create an autistic brave new world society where the desire for perfection in all things reduces mankind, in this case the white race, into a hierarchy of different jobs.

If you are a regular human seeing this, you have been replaced and completely out competed. There is nothing you can do to outdo them, they are your masters. You then default to slave morality and its ideologies. Life isn't easy for the posthumans as well; if you are in a middle caste you would be told that you are doomed to live in that caste forever simply because you were made for the role. Oddly enough if you develop ambition for a better life you have little choice but to devolve to slave morality collectivism and work with any disgruntled people left to overthrow the whole system.

In the end, a system like this based completely on the most extreme form of "Survival of the fittest" will fundamentally eat itself. Why bother being iron pill or red pill, if you can be your own indigo pill and create a custom blue pill to brainwash people with. I say, out Jew the Jew.

And I haven't even touched AI in this.

>tfw no tl;dr

This is too good for /nupol/

Where else would I post this?

/x/ has more people who are into this stuff. Thank you for posting nontheless.

I'm phoneposting so I'll be brief. As disgusting as I personally find India, its caste system has maintained the status quo for a very very long time. I imagine a caste system run by ubermench would be able to take care of itself.

The caste system of India has the advantage of having the lower caste quite uneducated. The problem with Übermensch is that I assume they would be reasonably intelligent, regardless of their caste.

This would mean lower and middle caste members can't be put down for long unless they were genetically created to be idiotic. But then this is no longer an Übermensch Master Morality Soviety but a Few Übermensch Ruling Untermenschen.

If the master is good enough, then the slaves cannot take over.

Purely social Darwinianism seems to be completely in line with tranhumanism. in the quest for the creation of the master race what is to stop a race from melding with machine or AI?

>TFW the only way white nationalism can work is with an injection of ludditism

The only people I have seen that can really counter this are white nationalists Christian's who believe that transhumanism undermines the divine image of man.

It is an eternal battle where as of now the slaves are winning, and remember "slaves" can also include other genetically engineered humans who do not like the leadership.

It is easy to say that a true master will never be overthrown, but history has shown that the mob eventually beats over the superior. A famous example would be WWII, though the German military is one of the best during that time, they were defeated due to being surrounded and outnumbered.

I didn't factor AI for this particular thought experiment, but I am not one of those "Singularitan Cultist". AI will improve but I doubt its overly utopian promises. I see cyborgs more of an existing but not overwhelming presence in the future. Why bother bolting a chip in your brain if having a smart phone access the same amount of information only a bit slower?

>This would mean lower and middle caste members can't be put down for long unless they were genetically created to be idiotic.
Literally the plot of Brave New World.
But nothing like that will happen. Assuming humanity even reaches meaningful human genetic engineering, the common masses will be euthanized by then, having already been replaced by machine slaves.

Perhaps like in Brave New World the masses would be made content through bread and circus and soma. Perhaps the middle caste would be raised to see there role as valuable and their existance a worthwhile one. Brainwashing people to love mediocrity is not that hard.

That is exactly what a Slave Morality Society will have: brainwashing, conformity, comfort, and and dysgenics. If this is the case then true eugenics would be impossible as it would devolve (literally) to this to maintain the power of the leadership.

Don't listen to him, I'm thoroughly pleased you posted it here.

In an actual ethno state that was driven by eugenics and free to implement it's will unfettered from Christian slave morality (so called) it could easily turn into a bizarre dystopian drive for endless power.

Imagine vats of the best genetic material that generate chad ubermensch Nazi babies and melds them with AI and robotics. The Nazis themselves had begun to liquify the family to an extent and promote single motherhood as a means to raise the birthrate in Germany, pure power driven ethnonationalism would eventually destroy the family it seems.

The Slippery Slope is the Truest of Fallacies it Seems.

Not necessary. Assuming the Ubermench controlled a world wide society. They could invest their resources into shifting worldwide demographics to allow the lower castes to die off over time until only high caste and the planet's resources remained. I have a feeling the number being shot at currently is a global population of 500 million.

>Christian's who believe that transhumanism undermines the divine image of man
wasn't man (as in mankind) made mortal after he took the apple
wouldn't transhumanism be us returning to the original state

what if all of this was just a test for us to earn back our divine forms, to learn to walk the right path again
*hits blunt*

I dont think Ubermench will even need lower castes to be honest. Each one will be a renaissance man capable of both designing and building a future worthy of themselves.

It's always darkest before the dawn. Our destiny is in God's hands alone.

I stated:
>A society is made up of different individuals with entirely different jobs. Eugenics via genetic engineering promises the possibility of creating a "perfect" human. As a concept "Perfection" does not exist as a monolithic thing, people of different jobs will be completely different. The Eugenics Regime would create a caste system and also raise the posthumans in ideal environments to suite their roles.

A lower caste will always exist, they may be better than us today but they are lower in the sense that they are at the bottom of the top. Even among 500 Million Übermensch, there still exist a potentially strict genetic hierarchy of roles among that number. So the notion and idea of being "lower" will still exist and will breed resentment unless they were made stupid which would not make this an Übermensch society.

See

What if your concept of what constitutes a society is outdated? 500 million is little enough for a mostly agrarian society (ever individual family owning an automated farm) What if Ubermench could pull off perfect, or as close to perfect communism as overhumanly possible?

To create perfect communism the species must be very docile and fundamentally non-competitive. They will cease to be the Übermensch as described by Nietzsche or any of the Social Darwinist Neo-Eugenic Transhumanist. Instead you woul dhave to genetically modify mankind to become what amounts to overly altruistic herbivores, aka modern leftist.

Why? Why wouldn't perfect beings trust themselves?

I disagree with this post. I don't think Ubermench would have the same drive for competition against fellow man. I think that the idea of Ubermench makes petty interhuman rivalry obsolete. But this is my opinion.

Perfect in what? That is the thing to think about.

Perfectly Ambitious in their Desire for Competition?

Perfectly Trusting of their kind to rule collectively and egalitarian and to never compete to overthrow each other?

Unless you are invoking the divine and miraculous definition of a perfect being, there is no universal "perfection" in the material realm. A person perfect at one thing will find himself imperfect if not terrible at another, such as the example I highlighted above.

Oh and overly altruistic and trusting species may be vulnerable of being exploited easily, there is a reason we evolved to distrust, even our own kin and in group in some form.

But you state this as if the drive for perfection need to be so intense. Much of what you describe can be reduced to hypercompetition and ruthlessness as the core problematic elements. The same would hold true for all forms of collective quests for power regardless of means.

Perhaps what defines an ubermensch can also be measured by how he treats those less capable than himself. Just as today most people cannot keep up with a soldier in combat, an engineer in building or a doctor in medicine, this need not mean that the majority must suffer a date of living as an underclass. This is just a matter of how you organize your societies values, not merely the means by which they are achieved.

Maybe, but high trust societies are the wealthiest societies. And in a world without criminals or even the need for criminality, society would be very wealthy. (Automated farms)

We can have this in our society now, the point of this thread was to highlight my concern that Eugenics via the rising technology of Positive Genetic Engineering of Humans would create a culture of hypercompetition and ruthlessness as the ideology of "striving for perfection is the only true meaning" will be encouraged due to a technology like this making it possible and in some way incentivizing it.

Note:
>Positive Genetic Engineering = Modifying an Organism to make it "Better"
>Negative Genetic Engineering = Modifying an Organism to cure illness.
I am concerned with the former only, not the latter.

Will we next create false gods to rule over us? How proud we have become, and how blind...

We can have the Transhumanist Machine God Super AI fight the Elite Caste of the Eugenic Social Darwinist Hierarchy to the death as we watch.

To map the very stuff of life; to look into the genetic mirror and watch a million generations march past. That, friends, is both our curse and our proudest achievement. For it is in reaching to our beginnings that we begin to learn who we truly are.

If we can do it why shouldn't we? If it leads to a better world, good. If it leads to hell and extinction or worse boredom, then we didn't deserve to exist in the first place. No species lives forever, why shouldn't we try to make ourselves gods?

Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought.

I like you

I like you too fellow patrician

On eugenics: I see "ideal" reproduction as in the self-interest of participants to grant them as close copies of themselves as possible. The ideal is when such copies will always gravitate to a worldview, temperament and ideology that is close to the original. I see all behaviours which extend to culture as induced by genetics. You don't change the world by convincing people outside whatever you call your ingroup how to live, you change it by making everyone as close to you as possible physically, and therefore also everyones ideology and capabilities are as close as possible to your own. Then, it doesn't matter what is superior. What is superior is what lives on while the rest dies. The Master competes with the slave and wins. He will also compete against other "Masters" and win, because they are not the same and differ fundamentally. You should understand then that I fight not for "superior" people but me, and people like me. I think what is conflated here is that white people truly have been seen as superior. Because we have had the opportunity to annihilate everyone else if we really wanted to. This is just a coincidence and is orthogonal to morality anyway. The way it is conflated is that people take this circumstance and then paints anyone who wants to further "the white race" as white supremacists, when everyone inherently wants to further their own race. I guess slave morality consistently conflates morality with circumstance.

Whatever critique you have against any eugenics that is based on morality, eugenics will trump that because nothing is more robust then your "superior" morality embedded in genetics. I.e. manifestation of the ideas in physical form as opposed to coercion through religion which is just a faulty means of reproduction of ideas.

Your conclusion that the system would eat itself rests on the assumption that it is necessary that no one of the people existing today will be selected as part of the master caste. That is just false.

I understand your concern lies with enhancement instead of healing. However, these technologies do not exist within a vacuum. It is entirely possible to organize your society in such a way that the enhanced vs. unenhanced live in a dynamic that does not greatly outpace or crush the less enhanced. Perfection is indeed a hollow ideal so why organize your society around it? In our ideal society people would enhance themselves to greater serve society and themselves, not to crush and outcompete other individuals in an ever increasing spiral of darwinistic meritocracy.

It's only an issue of what you value, pursue materialism to be gods of this world or to be saints in the next. Everuthing dies after all....

>catamite

This is a zero-sum game with the aim of bringing us down to a handful of immortal gods that have individual control over separate galaxies. You're not seeing the bigger picture.

Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist.

If we're talking about peoples role in society as in what occupations they will fulfil, won't it be made irrelevant anyway by mass automation? Only a select few will be in charge of production and government jobs.

i think a solution for these people would be to live self sufficient lives i.e. farming, homesteading, hunting. We would still benefit from genetic enhancing for this, a society of Ubermensch can perform better. Yes production of goods will be filled by people of higher castes, but at least the rest could be self-reliant and not completely dependant on the elite. Some things of course would have to be distributed to keep society at a modern level (energy, transport, materials, tech, medical equipment). We would need the right people in power.

For this to work we would need a much lower population. We would have to ease into this system over time.

I believe this to be a much better outcome than having everyone living in cities depending on handouts and doing menial slave labour. Sorry if i have misunderstood your point.

I don't see the issue desu.
By the time eugenics/genetic engineering has fixed all the acute problems related to general health most 'low caste' jobs will be automated.
I don't know how sensible breeding humans to have certain brain patterns even is but let's say we do that: I don't see why let's say the programmer caste(bred to be good with number) and the engineer caste(spatial intelligence) would have a natural hierarchy.
Both equally depend on each other.

His issue is a combination of the gattaca scenario (in a meritocratic society it would be cruel to disadvantage your children by not enhancing them) coupled with a ruthless disregard for the weaker as we strive for greater perfection.

Essentially the scenario is that all who are not enhanced are discarded, as are those specialists rapidly made redundant by the next generation that is already better. This creates a massive underclass that cannot compete with an ever decreasing ever more powerful superelite. Fill in the gaps for where it goes from there.

The righteous need not cower before the drumbeat of human progress. Though the song of yesterday fades into the challenge of tomorrow, God still watches and judges us. Evil lurks in the datalinks as it lurked in the streets of yesteryear. But it was never the streets that were evil.

Technology tends to become more affordable over time and because humans are fundamentally social I can see optimization genetic or otherwise become socialized.
What I don't see a large social Darwinist movement ever taking hold.

We shall take only the greatest minds, the finest soldiers, the most faithful servants. We shall multiply them a thousandfold and release them to usher in a new era of glory.

>might makes right
>non-Christian

> A society is made up of different individuals with entirely different jobs.
NO. NO Iron Pill for you!
> As a concept "Perfection" does not exist as a monolithic thing
Yes it does, not as a singular expression, but potentially in the same conscious unit. This is an evocation of how intelligent people understand "anti-racism". Unlike Pelosi.

You need to control for critical failures amongst the general population when experimenting and make sure of the validity of data recieved.
Imagine Herion use. Are we done studying the sociological effects of this in its current form? How can we maximise our understandings from the data already gained to accurately build models of potentials and retain consciousness of a set of core rules (You have to be concious of a subject matter to google a subject matter etc) in case of its potential re-emergence? So Should we stop it dead considering the social negatives? You need to create systems that can't be subverted.

"Out Jewing the Jew" is a fundamental concept of global capitalism, already engrained. But aiming to be conscious rather than instinctual, then re-applying understandings and experiences back into the early life education of the young to build concious enjoyment rather than exposing to exploitation of the senses. It is a tricky one given the forces at work. Is it "dehumanising".

ooga booga user let's do ..
>A Criticism of Eugenics and Master Morality
Literally jewish critical theory.
>sage

group size is a critical ingredient that you're missing. plus i think the whole caste thing is probably wildly oversimplified.

general improvements are intrinsically more valuable than specializations since they're more widely applicable. you would more likely end up with delineations of temperaments / gameplay styles that may end up as castes, but probably not imo.

caste systems are usually headed by priests, kings and warriors all validating themselves to the plebs with various logical shell games. among ubermensch, kings /leaders won't need priests since high iq people understand that order has intrinsic value and may come to worship it in and of itself. as far as warriors, everyone is a warrior because we all lift.

in the end though, gene editing and embryo selection are already happening. the game is afoot, Watson. play or die.

No. You don't want a caste system. You want a jobs switch and share system to maximise understanding of a breadth of tasks and experiences. All tasks become instinctual and balance within the individual is maintained. Independence of the unit is maintained and everyone becomes capable of higher functioning.

Gene editing isn't really that much of a game changer as they will have to operate in systems outside of the individual, but reducing kidney failure is a boost etc, but it only factors into efficiencies of system. You end up like chinese tin soldiers under a caste that are not allowed to emote.
This is why format is also important and Thomas Jeffreson was right. The marriage of ideals and rules around mode of production (and reproduction) development and mode of being (How do you get packages of material out into the middle of nowhere? Why develop that capacity if there is no demand for it?) rather than simply units sold (compacted spaces, marketing) is fundamental to maintainging a progressing conceptual space rather than simple material accrual and distribution.