>So I was very upset when I saw Evangelion, because it was apparent to me that the people who made it weren't thinking at all about making fun for or gaining the sympathy of the audience. Instead they tried to convince the audience to admit that everybody is sick, practically in the middle of a nervous breakdown, all the time. I don't think you should show things like that to everybody. It's not entertainment for the masses--it's much more interested in admitting that we're all depressed nervous wrecks, I thought. It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone. I don't think that's a real work of art. When people see that, they begin to realize they are the same way. I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die. I can't accept any work that doesn't say that
Is he right about Evangelion?
So I was very upset when I saw Evangelion...
Other urls found in this thread:
forum.evageeks.org
twitter.com
If somebody is sick. chinese cartoons won't cure them. But you can't expect japanese much from japanese people who still believe that mental disorders are just personality quirks that people can "get over" if they want to.
>stop thinking
>it's much more interested in admitting that we're all depressed nervous wrecks
>It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed
>it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone
I'm not even sure if we watched the same show if this is what he thinks Eva was trying to do.
Memes are shit. I think we can all agree on that. They were acceptable, like, 5-or-so years ago. Essentially they were slightly amusing inside jokes on the internet. Of course, at the height of their popularity (around 2010 - 2012), they started appearing everywhere; not just on the internet but occasionally on TV or in video games and movies. Your friends, coworkers and classmates would laugh at memes now. And they weren't funny anymore. This site is testament to that fact.
So who's to blame?
Well, mainly sites like Reddit, Memebase, 9gag, etc. And I'm not just saying that because it's cool to hate on those sites; they all spread shitty memes like a cancerous growth in a survivor of the Chernobyl disaster. These websites are where memes went to die, in a way.
But you can't blame them entirely, really. It's human nature to want to fit in with everyone else, and if everyone else likes memes, then you should probably check 'em out, too! And you did, and you laughed for a while, or at least pretended to. And then, when people finally bored of memes, which was inevitable, people started to dislike them. And then hate them.
So here we are, in 2016, and it is now a social norm (at least on the internet) to mock and hate memes because they're so mainstream. The ultimate irony is that hating memes is now mainstream. And yes, while I do personally think memes are shitty and should die a horrible death, and Reddit, 9gag and Memebase are all terrible, I feel the same way about the stupid people who think they're being cool and funny by making faux-channels called shit like "le epic reddit mememaster" with an avatar of a fedora neckbeard guy, spamming comments like "redditors unite!" in an "ironic" sense.
NGE is kinda shit but for different reasons
>cloning Rei fucks up all characterization and drama around her character until that point (which there wasn't much of to begin with)
>60 second karowu.jpg
>oops, we forgot to give Asuka a character arc. let's have her blurt out something about momma and AT fields and suddenly be all happy and shit for no reason in EoE after days of lingering in suicidal depression and being shot into the ocean
What
I think he's entirely right. What I don't understand is why he thinks Gundam was different.
NGE is messy, but it's still better than any of the cheesy boring Gundam schlock.
Asuka's character arc was really just copy paste of Kushana's from Nausicaa though, even Anno admitted this.
What a disgustingly bourgeois perspective.
You've just described the process of becoming jaded and bitter.
Welcome to the 21st baby! :D
Yeah, yeah, muh positive message, blah, blah.
Anno is one of those people that are desperate for approval and secretly hope that being a depressed social outcast is a proof that you are just different and more special than other people but don't have the confidence to actually believe that so they need to create exhibitionist art to feel secure.
You're projecting quite hard here, user. Unless you actually know Anno, making a statement like this is insane as fuck.
Didn't he write stuff like Ideon?
>Entire post in one greentext
GO BACK
FUCKING GO BACK
YOU INTERNET MUSLIMS
>you can't expect japanese much from japanese people
I am not saying I can't relate to that feeling. I don't see how it is insane to say something like that. I don't think it is inconceivable that one should be able to deduce the personality of an author by the content of his work especially when it is supported by biographical evidence.
Also it is quite obvious that Eva is a personal work for him.I could be wrong but I think it is fairly unlikely.
His style squarely falls in with that of the typical sensitive, misunderstood, artistic, outcast emo kid.
I am not trying to shit on your idol. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be special. It is just pretty characteristic of people like him to try to romanticize something like depression even if it was not his direct intention.
COMMIES OUT
He did write depressed characters though that is rarely immediately apparent because he never focuses on it directly. The emotion that his characters display most often is anger. He is an angry man.
...
Yeah, wanting people to be happy is so normie. They can never understand the suffering of being patrician.
He is wrong because the show doesn't imply 60% of his theory or anywhere close to it.
Nowhere does it say that everyone is fucked up. Nowhere does it imply that just because you are unhappy with the state of the world that you can attack someone.
Also Eva, at the end of it all, serves as a cautionary tale to NOT end up like Shinji. This has been a staple of storytelling since the brothers grimm. The point of the show is that while we can all fall to Shinji's state of mind, that doesn't mean we should shut away the world permanently. Characters who don't do this in the show get shit done. Sometimes at the expense of their own well being, like Misato.
Also not everyone will live a happy life. Idealism is one way of making film, but that doesn't mean that nihilism isn't equally as artistic.
Thanks for putting some words in my mouth, bub. Why don't I just let you talk for me since you know the full subtext of everything I say?
No, please. Feel free to refute my interpretation. That would be so much more interesting.
He hates Victory Gundam for similar reasons. He's a bit like urobuchi, he wants to stop being edgy and write fun things but can't do it sometimes.
And when he tries, like with G-reco, people reject it.
Tomino had a hard life.
Well, without saying too much, I think his overall interpretation of Eva is full of shit. What stuck out to me is his
>I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die. I can't accept any work that doesn't say that
bit. I'm definitely not critical of the pursuit of happiness in the abstract, but he seems to be hinting at a very specific kind of happiness with some very specific connotations that I find troublesome. His approach further seems almost naively dismissive of the conditions that foster unhappiness and the barriers to addressing it.
>Nowhere does it say that everyone is fucked up.
You, know, I have a great idea for a series. I'll just take several basic character archetypes and improve them by making them all depressed just like in my existentialist books. This is soo deep and shows soo much greater understanding of human nature.
>WAAAA, I DID SERIOUS ROBOT WARS FIRST, I SHOULD BE EVEN MORE FAMOUS THAN I ALREADY AM!!!!!!
>I think his overall interpretation of Eva is full of shit.
I am also not sure what exactly he is trying to say but I agree that the general mood of Eva is one of romanticizing depression.
>he seems to be hinting at a very specific kind of happiness
Have you watched any of his works? I think he makes a pretty good case of why it must be precisely this kind of happiness. The structure of our society and our basic needs are biologically defined.
>I'm not critical of the pursuit of happiness in the abstract
In this sense reason just a tool that exists to help us gain our basic needs and not an end in itself. Abstraction is useless if it cannot be applied to reality.
>with some very specific connotations that I find troublesome
I see. You are interpreting "work happily until they die" as "be mindless little tools without independent thought". This is something he criticizes. According to him all people should take deliberate and active participation in the betterment of their community. That can only be achieved by people that are in touch with their true selves and are emotionally stable and secure.
>he seems almost naively dismissive of the conditions that foster unhappiness
He acknowledges differences in personality, mindset, culture, education, personal development etc. as well as the inherent cognitive limitations of the human mind. He offers no magical solutions and golden rules that always work though.
I really don't understand how you can come away from Eva with that opinion unless you drop it halfway through. The ending could not be more explicit in showing that the entire point was having Shinji work through his depressive nihilism. I mean, even pretty early in the series, Misato and Ritsuko have a direct discussion about Shinji's problems. I think it would also be foolish to say that because of the prevalence of damaged characters, the series endorses a view that everyone is damaged. All of the characters are shown to have cause for their traumas. Even the most well off characters are living in the stressful post-impact era. To be sure, one could draw comparisons to our post-modern world to posit that the series does make such an endorsement, but in this case I would have to agree with such a premise. The modern world is indeed a wicked thing which produces damaged peoples. Rather than a condemnation of humanity, this is a condemnation of the societies in which we live.
Rebuild a shit though, 3.33 seems like figurative shitposting just to show how far the industry has fallen.
Consider the following:
Most people would respond more strongly to the tone and mood of a work rather than to its immediate content.
Sure, but only an idiot would form an opinion on something based only on reaction to tone rather than evaluating the work in its entirety. Then again, most people might also be idiots.
Had to trim it up for length, sorry about the shit formatting.
1. Around half of MSG twoish years ago. I freely admit that I'm basing my criticism on the quote as presented in the context of our world with a limited knowledge of the context surrounding him and his work, but I'd certainly be willing, time permitting, to delve into that latter context.
2. The natural component of necessity only goes so far -- there's a significant social component of necessity that comprises the arrangements around these natural necessities.
3. I really don't know how to respond to this, as it seems like an irrelevant aside. I certainly don't debate the latter aspect (theory's useless without praxis and all that). Please fill me in if I'm just outright missing something here.
4. I don't debate this view when framed as such, but I don't think such views can be expressed in a vacuum. I'm not at all denying the merit of laboring for the social good, of reaching personal tranquility, etc., but I greatly doubt the capacity for such in our world -- *that'* is issue numero uno for me. To claim to want to "show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die" without properly criticizing the massive barriers to such presented by our current social arrangements is absolutely asinine.
5. Of course, I wouldn't trust anyone who claims to have all the golden rules. I noticed, however, in your list of human differences a neglect to mention the key difference I criticize: the structural difference. I'm not sure Tomino's acknowledgements of human difference (assuming you're representing it accurately) includes such, but if not, I'm gonna have some major gripes.
summed up gracefully why this quote bugs me so much. Also, if I'm misinterpreting Tomino's views in any way, or if there is a significant bit of his context that I am missing, please please PLEASE let me know.
Sure, but only an idiot would form an opinion on something based only on reaction to literal content rather than evaluating the work in its entirety.
You know I never found the original source for this quote in Japanese
>there's a significant social component of necessity
As I said social dynamics is also biologically defined.
>as it seems like an irrelevant aside
You were talking about "abstract happiness". Abstract happiness is not something that can exist by itself. It must necessarily be a representation of reality. Pursuing some sort of happiness that doesn't exist in reality makes for unhappy people. Of course a society of excess would produce many such ideas of happiness that are not grounded in reality.
>I greatly doubt the capacity for such in our world
Theoretically it is not impossible but by "the massive barriers presented by our current social arrangements" do you mean that there is no way to implement it currently?
What exactly do you mean by "structural difference"?
I am not very sure what exactly Tomino meant either but considering his outlook even though it's to a large extent filtered through my own understanding I think he is probably bothered by the fact that Eva presents a very individualistic view of the world.
Evangelion is 2deep4u trash so anyone who shittalks it is correct.
People reject Greco because it's fucking shit, not because it's genki. GBF was pretty happy and people adore it.
Is this quote actually real? How can he say this shit when he makes glorified toy commercials about space autists and space Nazis trying to crash giant colonies onto Earth?
>As I said social dynamics is also biologically defined.
I wouldn't say so. Can you point out the part of the human genome that spells out, say, slavery? Markets? Workplaces? Communes? Aristocracies? These dynamics arise from the ebb and flow of historical processes and material conditions, not as a result of biological determinism.
>You were talking about "abstract happiness". Abstract happiness is not something that can exist by itself. It must necessarily be a representation of reality. Pursuing some sort of happiness that doesn't exist in reality makes for unhappy people. Of course a society of excess would produce many such ideas of happiness that are not grounded in reality.
Not what I was getting at -- my use of 'the pursuit happiness in the abstract' was more a reference to the general concept of the pursuit happiness, which, in the abstract, I find hard to criticize. I further acknowledged (admittedly in an implicit way) how abstractions are tied to certain contexts through my mention of a specific pursuit of a specific happiness.
>Theoretically it is not impossible but by "the massive barriers presented by our current social arrangements" do you mean that there is no way to implement it currently? What exactly do you mean by "structural difference"?
The existence of systemic inequality precludes any meaningful implementation of an arrangement based on his presented principles except for a priviledged few. This systemic inequality is what I refer to as structural difference.
>I am not very sure what exactly Tomino meant either but considering his outlook even though it's to a large extent filtered through my own understanding I think he is probably bothered by the fact that Eva presents a very individualistic view of the world.
I don't think the message of Eva falls under of some shitty collectivist/individualist binary. It seems to hint instead at the unity of the two, finding one through the other, the antagonisms between the two, and so on.
Really though? Asuka seened a lot more fleshed out then Kushana. Inspired or based on maybe, but copy paste is a bit much.
>I am also not sure what exactly he is trying to say but I agree that the general mood of Eva is one of romanticizing depression.
Can't agree with you there at all. If nothing else, Eva has several persisting themes that refute the idea that wallowing in depression is okay. Understandable maybe, but the series never implies that it's okay.
>mental disorders are just personality quirks that people can "get over" if they want to.
That's usually true though, but it depends on your definition of mental disorder. If you have "anxiety" then you probably just need to get out more and acclimate to the real world, but obviously things like schizophrenia are different.
The point of tsundere is to be cold on the outside sweet on the inside.
But this is a lie to trick otaku weeks into thinking they have a chance with a girl who outright rejects them. And the popularity of tsundere was a sickness that needed to be cured. And so asuka which became the baseline for all tsundere showed us that she isn't hiding a sweet gooy interior waiting to come out, she was hiding serious trauma that she; as you said "blurted out" which comes as a major breakdown.
This isn't badly written, you just expected something else and got a reality check.
user how in anyway was evangelion a romantisizing depression? It very clearly showed the exact fucking opposite.
An aggressive girl isn't going to hide her romantic feelings for you
An emotionless doll isn't going to develop feelings on the fly
Having a lack of parental guidance and being forced to endure physical trauma or be shunned and isolated by your friends and family isn't something you can just ease out of and get over.
Having to pick your career over your personal life isn't something to strive for and losing a loved one sticks with you forever.
Frankly you sound like you never even watched evangelion.
But nobody brought that up. You're making the argument into a polar opposite to make it sound like
>ya it's not good to do x without y but doing just y is just as bad
We're you trying to do a 'one up' to end the argument?
Wow. It is posts like this that really do convince me that there's something to Sup Forums's narrative of racial intelligence. Even as a 10 Y.O. child, I could see that Evangelion ultimately did have a positive message.
This man is so retarded, it's scary.
Even if his analysis is right, his conclusion is wrong. The point of art is not to placate people into being smiling cattle.
If an artwork can drive a person to murder, that doesn't make the art bad. That makes the work brilliant, and it would be a crime to try and censor that.
>and to encourage them to work happily until they die
quick someone tell him that only evil adults works
Picking up guns to kill each other is only ok to show in anime if it's literally happening user.
>my use of 'the pursuit happiness in the abstract' was more a reference to the general concept of the pursuit happiness
Yes, but this means absolutely nothing.
>the existence of systemic inequality precludes
You mean class structure? Economic inequality? I don't understand. Are you saying that they are in the way of creating an effective social organization? That is how I interpret preclude. If so in what way?
Or are you simply saying that the implementation of an effective social organization would require a class distribution different that the current one? Naturally. Why should that be impossible?
>Can you point out the part of the human genome that spells out, say, slavery? Markets? Workplaces? Communes? Aristocracies?
Eh, let's see. The tendency to flock together and form organized societies is natural. The organization itself is an abstraction but it has to function in such way as to satisfy the needs of the population. But those are as you say "arrangements". Democracy, aristocracy, capitalism, socialism etc. are "arrangements" i.e. an abstract organization of natural social structures. On the other hand class, community etc. are natural social structures.
>I don't think the message of Eva falls under of some shitty collectivist/individualist binary.
I do. I do think it falls squarely into individualistic territory.
>It seems to hint instead at the unity of the two, finding one through the other, the antagonisms between the two, and so on.
Pretty easygoing. The series doesn't explore the conflict at all. It simply brushes it aside with a simpleminded optimism. "You are an inherently worthy person, user-kun, and the way you feel is inherently worthy." That is not exactly how it works. A cartoon can't tell you something like that. This is the pinnacle of self-absorption.
How is acknowledging flaws equal to endorsing them? Everything that could go wrong in Eva went wrong because they are all fuckups.
>I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die. I can't accept any work that doesn't say that
Sounds like he drank the corporate culture kool-aid.
here source since OP is a stupid troll
forum.evageeks.org
Better than being jaded desu.
Completely correct.
The media must promote the right thoughts among the populations and any deviation bringing harm to society and the government must be strictly sanctioned by the law. For the sake of everyone's wellbeing and future.
>It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
he didn't understand a single thing
He's wrong about catharsis. Tragedy can help you overcome those feelings by portraying them, but there's empathy involved. The reason Eva doesn't do that is because most of us aren't completely fucking neurotic all the time, and those of us who are won't see it that way. If someone is going to cry and whine about things you think you could handle, and it isn't a comedy, you won't even want to sympathize with this character.
On the other hand a drama or tragedy about a depressed guy who shoots people because he doesn't like the way the world works really could have value. Just not if he whines himself to death.
He is speaking with regard to his personal interpretation of the subject matter.
Anno is someone who is writing only about his personal experience with depression. Eva is exclusively focused on wanting to escape reality. If it was just a personal story about gaining the courage to reach out to other people it would have been adequate as a story but it makes some claims for universal validity without having examined all sides of the problem.
Tomino is someone who from the start of his career has explored similar themes to the ones in Eva but he focuses more on society. A lot of his characters are angry and violent. They feel oppressed by society so they decide they can take a gun and try to change it on their own head because they think "The way I feel must be important". That is not OK. Not because the way you feel is not important but because the way other people feel is important too.
An individualistic perspective, no matter how well-intentioned it is, naively assumes that all people must share the same values.
Just saw Shin Godzilla really recently.
Anno put a lot of faith in humanity to have it end with Godzilla described as a being that evolves to best survive ends with nearly evolving to procreate humanoid offspring to be like mankind
Well whats good about Eva is that it didnt pander to any of that. Make the story beneficial to people? people want this particular character so we should give more attention to him/her? No, fuck that, they just tried to make a good psychological plot with no pandering to anyone whatsoever and that enabled them to create such a great story.
They already pandered to fans through different mediums like dating sims and merchandise which was the right move to cater to them, not change the whole direction of the plot entirely just to pander, which will destroy the anime's story all together
Broccoli is also good for you but not necessarily something you will like.
>not liking Broccoli
Pleb
>Broccoli is also good for you but not necessarily something you will like.
But broccoli IS still good to me and to everyone else entirely. In that sense, Eva has a well-established story with no particular preferences to any group whatsoever. And that's why it's really good.
Anno's work has a certain message that is targeted to a certain group.
Tomino's work has a certain message that is targeted to a certain group.
No one has said anything about pandering.
Eva is Anno's attempt at self-disclosure. It is personal and targeted towards people who are like-minded. It focuses on portraying and invoking a certain brooding introspective state of mind.
Tomino is a preachy ideologist who is trying to explore the psychological causes of social phenomena and focuses on portraying bustling interpersonal interactions and group dynamics. According to him his work is intended to instruct.
So even though they have an overlapping interest in the sphere of human psychology their mindsets are very different. Try to interpret Tomino's statement in respect to his personality. It's important to get shit done. Why would you need to create a brooding work of art to say that brooding is useless?
>No one has said anything about pandering
I said that one of the reasons eva has a good story is because it didnt pander to anyone, i didnt say it because someone else said it.
>Eva is Anno's attempt at self-disclosure. It is personal and targeted towards people who are like-minded.
Yeah it cant be helped that a work will target a certain group that are like-minded, but Anno didnt create eva's stroy to target or cater to anyone, but rather just to express his mentality and create a damn good story from it, and that's my point.
His genki stuff isn't as highly regarded as his grimdark stuff. His most popular genki anime is what, xabungle? And it's pretty much never talked about anymore.
You interpreted the statement and
>because it was apparent to me that the people who made it weren't thinking at all about making fun for or gaining the sympathy of the audience
>I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die
as claiming that art should pander to the audience.
Creating a work that is meant to instruct is not pandering.
>Anno created his story just to express his mentality and create a damn good story from it
That is why Tomino is criticizing it. To him this sort of art is just self-indulgent.
Where are those fucking G-Reco movies, Tomino?