Is he a self insert?

Is he a self insert?

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Only if you have some serious mental issues or just ignore them.

No

No, there are plenty of valid complaints about F/SN but Shirou being a self-insert isn't one of them

In fact Shirou gets a lot of hate precisely because he isn't one

All novel protagonists are self-inserts

Absolutely. There's enough material in the VN's 10 billion words to paint him as an interesting character, but you can spin anything to be a super compelling character

At the end of the day people like who act like shirou is some kind of mental case ignore how normal he acts in every route inbetween doing crazy shounen fight scene shit. He has a regular life where he goes to school, he makes jokes and otherwise doesn't have issues being social with others, he has several hobbies, he gets awkward teenage boners over his sisters friend, ect ect. Countless things where if shirou was actually this really damaged guy who, through a combination of survivors guilt and childish idolization of his dead dad who is literally a magical hero, is fundamentally off from others and thus has irrational desires to be a superhero he wouldn't act like this.

It's not even that this is a problem with the game being a galge or type moon being hacks because both shiki's are pretty obviously written as people who are "off" from normal in some way because of the shit they've gone through in the past, and they always act like this even as tohno is busy banging someone in order to heal his wounds or whatever flimsy reason or a sex scene, they have a consistency that shirou doesn't have.

Shirou is pretty clearly a wish fulfillment character

>Has a massive mansion that he doesn't really have to pay for or worry about the upkeep on
>In great shape despite barely exercising and not in any kind of sports, his main hobbies are stationary things like repairing or cooking
>Well liked by almost everyone for no real reason other than something about doing a high jump, including people who are trying to kill him
>Not only does he have magic powers, but he has super special unique powers that nobody else have and that violate one of the key rules of the universes magic because he had a super special sword shoved up his ass as a kid
>Has a future self who's super badass and is a plucky underdog who shows him how cool he can be, despite this he's going to avoid ending up with his shitty angsty life because of what happens in the majority of route endings
>Everything just kind of works out his way constantly
>According to HA he just goes back to living his pretty comfy high scholer life after everything that goes wrong with the grail war

Just because someone can go about every day life and look seemingly normal does not mean that they don't have serious underlying mental issues. You can even see hints of his problems at the start with how he just goes around selflessly fixing shit for the school, plus the game later just tells you his future is fucked because of them. The holy grail war just ends up being a perfect way to bring out all his problems into higher focus.

archer explicitly comes from a shirou that doesn't exist in any of the routes, and most of the endings outright say that the "current" shirou wont end up like him with no real reason for the reader to believe otherwise

None of this makes someone a wish fulfillment character.

You're not really getting what I said. It's not that shirou can't put on a facade of looking normal, it's that shirous internal monologue is way too normal large parts of the time. If shirou is this close to being mind of steel from the very start, why does he even notice that sakura has become really feminine recently? Or get annoyed by petty stuff? If he has emotionally dulled responses because of trauma and life choices he's made since, why does he show such a wide range of emotions to everyone all the time?

Sure. First-person narrative.

>Implying self-insert = bad

>why does he show such a wide range of emotions to everyone all the time?

Shirou doesn't though.

People notice that he's a really serious guy, and it's pointed out by people who know him that he doesn't really smile much, nor does he really do much to have fun.

He hardly ever laughs, too.

Yes, typically for males. In the context of Prisma however, Shirou is still a self-insert, but for the female audience, so they can imagine having their way with the female characters, like how the heterosexual male audience self-inserts into Illya or Chloe.

>and most of the endings outright say that the "current" shirou wont end up like him with no real reason for the reader to believe otherwise
His ideal never changed outside of Heaven's Feel. In the Fate route there is nothing to really stop him and in UBW he said he doesn't care and would still peruse it so only Tohsaka really has a chance to really shackle him there. He might not end up exactly the same as Archer but his fate will still to be stuck with his Ideal which can't ever be fully completed.

>he makes jokes and otherwise doesn't have issues being social with others

At the beginning of the VN he has about a max of 5 friends, 1 of whom he's on the outs with and he never realized, and another 2 who's basically forced themselves into his life and he's just kind of gotten used to. 1 of said friends also notes how he rarely laughs, and treats his off the cuff rudeness as typical behaviour.

>he has several hobbies
Archery (which he doesn't practise anymore), housework, cooking and mechanics. Which are all hobbies that require a minimal amount of contact with other people, and that he mostly uses for the sake of others.

I'm going to ignore "goes to school" and "gets boners" because those are normal teenager things and it'd be absurd to not do those things unless he was an asexual NEET which is a near non-existent character archetype.

>In great shape despite barely exercising and not in any kind of sports, his main hobbies are stationary things like repairing or cooking
Except for where he notes that he likes jobs with manual labour because it allows him to also indulge in physical exercise, and that exercising in his dojo (even if not fighting in it) is nearly an everyday thing for him?

>violate one of the key rules of the universes magic
Which rule? Yes, Shirou's projections are top tier, but they're still shittier than the thing he's copying.

>According to HA
HA is literally the "and happily ever after for anyone" dream route that's impossible, that Shirou is actively trying to fuck up because it doesn't sit right with him.

I mean the rest are all pretty legitimate criticisms but that's a lot of basic misunderstandings being thrown around

shirous projections, especially with UBW, make something out of nothing and thus are basically sorcerery. everyone shits on projection because anything it makes is supposed to be a barely similar replica that breaks down after a while, so for shirou to have his only magic affinity be with a "bad" type and have it be insanely overcharged is a classic self insert/power fantasy trait. "Society thinks I suck but they're just too dumb to understand what I'm going for"

>I'm going to ignore "goes to school" and "gets boners" because those are normal teenager things
But isn't the entire argument that shirou ISN'T a normal teenager because of the trauma he has and his crazy ideal?

>self inserting as a female character
?

I personally don't think he is, since I see him as a character in the same way as the rest of the cast, but what do you care OP?

It's clear that you think he is, and won't change you mind. Why else would you ask that question in that specific way here?

>In great shape despite barely exercising
This is not even remotely true. Holy shit go read the VN. Shirou would make /fit/ jealous with his work ethic.

A character having something unique about them is also the trait of something called a "Protaganist"

And Shirou's magic ties directly into the themes of the story and his character arc, it's not something just thrown in to look cool

only if you don't read the VN and just watch the anime(s) (or you have poor reading comprehension).

The very beginning of the VN has shirou do nothing but 100 situps as his workout, as if that would do a damn thing, and then talk about how he doesn't really want to become all that strong, just strong enough in case an emergency happens. It doesn't really make sense for him to be ripped enough to be even semi comptent at swordfighting and the like later in each route given how casually he does his training inbetween school, repairing shit and blowing up his magic circut every single night

Conjuring stuff out of thin air is literally Gradtion Air's entire point though, and it's a basic magic any mage can use - no where near to being True Magic/Sorcery. Shirou's just better than it than mostbecause he's really fucking anal and literally insists that he needs to copy anything rather than just the standard mage approach of "fuck it close enough".

It is literally only good because he's an autist.

True, poorly phrased. "Going to school" is normla for someone who has a teacher as a guardian and isn't a caricature of a social fuck up.

Popping boners because you think a chick's hot is what happens when puberty hits you, and you entire family dying a horrible death doesn't stop puberty hitting you a decade later.

Shirou isn't a normal teenager because of his trauma and his ideal. This does not mean he isn't capable of doing normal teenager stuff still, especially when there are forces he can't control encouraging it.

Even mental cases still can get boners and go to school so it doesn't really say much if they do. Why do you think there are cases of kids doing school shootings?
Like that user said the only real exception would be if someone was an asexual neet or had some serious disability or some shit like that.

>A character having something unique about them is also the trait of something called a "Protaganist"
All you need to be the protagonist is to be the viewpoint charatcter, you don't need a cheat special move the character effectively lucked into.

> And Shirou's magic ties directly into the themes of the story and his character arc, it's not something just thrown in to look cool

>And Shirou's magic ties directly into the themes of the story and his character arc, it's not something just thrown in to look cool
Something can be very rationally explained and have a purpose and also be an element that makes them more open to being a wish fulfillment character. I'm a fan of shirou, but to act like he's not acting with a stacked deck from the cards of life is just foolish.

>regularly does physically demanding part time jobs
>exercises regularly
>his daily magic routine is excruciating on his body
I wouldn't say Shirou is ripped, but he is certainly fit and physically active. This was quite clear at the beginning of the VN.

Shirou knows how to use a sword because Taiga, a fifth-dan Kendo practitioner, taught him.

Shirou's part time job involves constant lifting of heavy boxes and the like, and magic is actually really strenuous

>It doesn't really make sense for him to be ripped enough to be even semi comptent at swordfighting
His house has a dojo and he was brought up by someone who was basically batman and also a teacher who also likes kendo. It isn't hard to see why he at least knows some stuff about sword fighting.

Eh the sit ups I'll grant you, though it should still be pointed out that he does a lot of physical labor otuside that still. Not wanting to be strong is also quite different from not wanting to remain fit and healthy, and aiming for the latter will still result in the former to some extent. It's also not as though he's implied to be superstrong outside of Reinforcing himself anyway.

It's also mentioned by Taiga that Shirou used to practise kendo for a few years when he was younger, though he stopped after Kirtsugu's death and was always better at archery anyway. SO it's not as though he got sword skills by being swole. And even whats word skill we do see him sue is copy-pasted from the swords

>All you need to be the protagonist is to be the viewpoint charatcter,

False, viewpoint character =/= protagonist.

Viewpoint character is the who's perspective the story is told through. Protagonist is the one who the story is about. These are not the same thing and quite often are separate.

>you don't need a cheat special move

But the protagonist often does have something special about them. Something only they can do, or they know, *something* that makes them the turning point of the events of the narrative.

Taiga didn't teach him a damn thing. Shirou's "kendo" was just him and Kiritsugu hitting each other haphazardly with shinai.

Shirou didn't learn anything about swordfighting until meeting Saber. Even then, Saber didn't teach Shirou any techniques, since it's impossible teach someone actual skill in such a short frame of time. Instead, she taught him to get a feel for battle and not get killed instantly even when going up against a Servant.

Everything else, he basically got from Archer. In Fate route, any real skill he displays is literally just him letting Caliburn do its own thing while dragging his body along for the ride. In Unlimited Blade Works and Heaven's Feel, he receives all his skill from Archer one way or another.

typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Gradation_Air
>Projection (Trace Versio is the personal variation of Gradation Air that Shirou Emiya and Archer use, referred as Tracing due to the unique aria, "Trace On", that is used for its activation. Tracing greatly differs from normal Projection in the fact that not only does it reproduce the shape and substance of an object, but also its entire history as well
>Furthermore, whenever replicating mystical objects such as Noble Phantasms, it is possible to faithfully copy their special abilities and any skill that its owner performed are available for use. The reason this is possible is due to the nature of Unlimited Blade Works, which at a glance, records the history, composition, and design of what the user sees, and then provides the necessary materials needed to reproduce them. The actual reproduction happens within Unlimited Blade Works, and is then brought into the real world at need via Projection.

>typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Unlimited_Blade_Works
>The number of unique weapons encountered and recorded by Archer exceeds numerous thousands, most of which are Noble Phantasms each possessing deadly powers. Their entire histories, compositions, and designs are all perfectly recorded, allowing for instant proficiency with the weapons by inheriting all combat skills and techniques utilized by their original owners. This allows for the reproduction of Noble Phantasms, which would generally be impossible for a faker. They can also be modified to the user's taste with reinforcement as shown by Archer's Caladbolg II and Kanshou and Bakuya. During his lifetime, EMIYA would customize his weapons from their usual states, projecting Noble Phantasms that appears to have been arranged with designs that are easier to use.

The main use of shirou projections (NP) is something only emiya can do because of UBW, and the way that works is way different from regular projection.

And literally the only way it differs is because most magi, when using Gradiation Air, only care about the form. If they need a sword they don't bother with replicating its history, because "how the sword has been made" is typically considered irrelevant to how the sword acts.

It's even discussed at one point in UBW itself - Rin is explaining that Gradiation Air is near useless precisely because the idea is that you don't copy everything since it's needless, and Shirou notes that Kiritsugu also called it useless because a mage only focuses on the central core and that in order to produce anything of note requires far more effort that is better spent elsewhere.

UBW essentially acts as a cheat sheet that has the blueprints for all the weapons, but with the same blueprint (which they could attain with study of the object) any mage could create a sword of rough parity to Shirou's projections.

the way it works is identical, it's the level of information used to create the replica that differs.

Also
>They can also be modified to the user's taste with reinforcement as shown by Archer's Caladbolg II and Kanshou and Bakuya

That is literally a different (though related) branch of magic called Alteration, wiki. Stop being so shit.

No they can't. No magus can recreate a Noble Phantasm via Gradation Air. Rin even notes the absurdity of it when she sees it.

Only Shirou is capable of recreating Noble Phantasms via thaumaturgy. No modern magus could even hope to achieve something similar. Also, Shirou's recreations tend to last an absurdly long time. When Rin first sees the shit that he's made in his shed, she goes ice cold, as if she's seeing something completely grotesque and beyond her imagination. She even goes on to state that if anyone from the Magus Association found out about Shirou, they'd immediately place him in formaldehyde.

>with the same blueprint (which they could attain with study of the object) any mage could create a sword of rough parity to Shirou's projections.

> This allows for the reproduction of Noble Phantasms, which would generally be impossible for a faker.

UBW also lets him copy the skill the sword was used with, abit downgraded, which is completely distinct from regular projection anyone can do. I also didn't copy paste the part where UBW makes it way less energy intensive and thus actively practical to do this shit because instead of making the stuff in real time it already exists in another universe and is essentially pulled from hyperspace

no, but if you're looking for a self insert I have one for you

...

He was also in the archery club. Do you have any idea how much physical strength it takes to pull a bow?

Most people don't because media gives bows to agile slender characters.

That one rich ironc weeb hired 2 models to cosplay for him

Why the fuck are fate threads always filled with secondaries spouting shit they dont know jack shit about?

Zerofags

Shirou dies very easily, there are ten times more bad ends than good ones, each being a possible fate. You as the reader simply guide him down a timeline where he gets lucky/makes the right decisions to not get horribly murdered.

He's never strong. Even at the end of UBW he only beats Gil by baiting him into a contest of who can make more swords, forget about Ea all Gil needed to do was activate some of the random NPs or do literally anything but spam swords against UBW. But that's the point of Gil's character, he always fucks up because of his pride and arrogance.

At the end of HF he was a fucking wreck too, borrowing power he couldn't control, even turning into a sword porcupine Kotomine was kicking his ass with ease. The only thing he could do was endure and dodge any fatal blows until Kotomine's time ran out first.

The only strong Shirou is the Miyuverse one, but that's just fan shit.

etc.

Stop responding. The correct answer has already been given.

>You as the reader simply guide him down a timeline where he gets lucky
So, like I said, he gets lucky and everything just works out. The ways he escapes those bad ends are often extremely arbitrary events like someone just happens to show up at the last minute to bail his ass out

>He's never strong.
when did I say he was? What he IS is lucky as hell, in your HF example for instance in the end everything more or less works out okay. It's not like say, tsukihime, where the only endings to the akiha route are either "murder the one person shiki cares about more than anyone else" "keep her as a mindless bloodsucking pet, effectively ruining his life" or "die so akiha can live"

Is it really luck if there are more timelines where you fail than where you succeed?

>The ways he escapes those bad ends are often extremely arbitrary events like someone just happens to show up at the last minute to bail his ass out
Not really. Most of the time it's just that you don't make a stupid decision.

No. He is best boy though.

Shut up Saber. Your opinion doesn't count. He feeds you, gives you shelter and loves you unconditionally. You're biased to the brim.

I'd love him unconditionally if he did all that for me, too.

Yes. Retards can go through all the mental gymnastics they want to defend Nasu's hero-fucking OC donut steel, but at the end of the day, the answer doesn't change.

Shirou is literally the perfect male spouse.

This is the sort of philosophical question that is irrelevant in a story where to progress you have to follow a very linear path. You may as well say that just turning the game off is a legit ending that represents a timeline where shirou had a sudden heart attack.

Except for all the times in fate where saying you aren''t' interested in the grail war, or to be defensive, or let saber handle things because she's infinitely more qualified get you a bad ending.

Even mind of steel is a "bad" ending

Of course Mind of Steel is a bad ending, it's fucking horrible for Shirou, and everyone else.

I want a short slice of life of this.

>Except for all the times in fate where saying you aren''t' interested in the grail war
Of fucking course that would kill you. You don't get to just check out of the war.

>saber handle things because she's infinitely more qualified get you a bad ending
Saber is a dumbass that ran off in the middle of the knight to fight Assassin.

>Even mind of steel is a "bad" ending
Duh? Did you even read mind of steel?

The point is that all of those endings are the most logical choice from shirous perspective. He has no reason to assume that he can't leave from the grail war when kirei acts as such and he barely knows anything about it, he has no reason to assume saber is in trouble given she's been seemingly invincible so far, even mind of steel is the most "logical" in the cold/calculating sense given that murdering everyone to prevent the most deaths is something that is a lot more likely to turn out properly than hoping somehow everyone he cares about can be saved.

Saying you only or even largely get punished for picking dumb choices is just wrong, there's nothing wrong with this, especially given how it plays into the games themes, but don't bullshit

>assuming that the shady priest you just met is totally trustworthy
>assuming saber is totally invincible and no other servant could defeat her
>logical

Also you clearly fundamentally misunderstand the mind of steel ending. Shirou completely betrays who he is.

>go off somewhere alone
>nearly get killed
>go off somewhere alone
>nearly get killed
>go off somewhere alone
>nearly get killed
>alternatively: go off somewhere alone, and nearly get killed
If so, then my immersion was broke a long time ago.

>his grown up version hates his lifestile and all choises he took

yeah i can project into that

>Shirou completely betrays who he is.
He also does it if he doesn't turn his mind into steel.
if completely betraying what Shiro is qualifies as a reason to label MOS as a bad end, HF as a whole is just a heavily narated bad ending too.

It's a bad end because it completely destroys anyone's chance at happiness.

Except all of the people who would be killed by Sakura.

Shinji, Zouken and Kotomine, you mean? No wonder it's a bad end.

Albeit the only one,Sakura is happy at the end of HF. Unless you're talking about MoS when you say it destroys anyone's chance at happiness, then you might be right when you only consider Shirou's friends, but a lot of people get killed if he decided to let the thing inside Sakura live.
I initialy thought that these scenarios had the advantage of dealing with Zouken since the other routes end with him still keikakuing for the next Grail war, but I recently read Nasu said Wayver would eventualy deals with him when he goes back to Fuyuki to destroy the higher grail.

Who the hell reads a story and thinks, "Man, that sure was a depressing end. But at least everyone who WASN'T in the story is happy!"

By that logic, none of the endings in Tsukihime are bad. After all, even if all the main characters die and Roa gets to keep doing his thing, the rest of the world will continuing going forth as normal.

Sakura is the only happy person at the end of HF.

True End? Rin, Rider and Shirou seem fine.

And Rider.
And Shirou.
And Rin.

Shirou is only capable of feeling true non-altruistic happiness in HF.

>Rin
She's midly satisfied but still has the feeling that something is missing.
>Rider
She's a Servant and amurderer.
>Shirou
That empty husk is not Shirou anymore.

Sure,but at least Zouken is kill.
He's also happy in his last moments btw.

>Is he a self insert?

hells no. He even has his own backstory.

didn't sakura use her worms to rape her and take her virginity?

>has a blonde gaijin servant little girl whom hymen is still intact that you can bang
>can kill the arrogant bishounen king
>have unique magical powers
>Highschool boy
Every loser who reads the VN is projecting themselves onto him without even noticing it and will trade their pathetic lives in exchange of Shitrou's.

Think the reason Gil hesitated to bring out EA was because he realized too late that Shirous was copying all of his Noble Phantasms and that he might copy that one?

I'm thinking Archer was going to do the same thing and wanted to get a hold of/see Ea.

I'd rather be Shinji.

You're clearly a secondary as they point out in the VN that Shirou can't analyze EA and thus can't reproduce it.

Gil didn't pull out EA because that would mean going all out against a random magus that is largely considered shit.

Shinji is actually more of a self insert character

>no talent
>considers himself "very intelligent"
>hot non blood related sister he can bang
>smoking hot servant who he can bang
>he could totally seduce the tsundere Tohsaka right?
>his "best friend" is a beta autist who has no chance with women so he is totally non-threatening

Made in paint.net for your shitposting pleasure

Nah this just stupid. No amount of twist or end makes it remotely logical.

A character is fundamentally insane is not not a self jesus christ. Read mkre stories. Might as well say the MC of Ajin is a self insert because he is an actual Sociopath.

MoS Shirou would deal with all of those without a second thought so that's not even a question.

>bad end 27

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