Was he a man-child?

Was he a man-child?

>want to wish world peace to holy grail
Yeah, pretty much

I mean if the Holy Grail could find the improbable answer to create permanent peace and changes space and time to do it, would it have been the right thing to do?

He didn't really need the holy grail to tell him objectively that world peace is impossible.
Could have figured it out himself

He was lead to believe the holy grail is an almighty wishing device able to do anything via a miracle.

The biggest manchild from Japanese media.

Typical ameriburger sorting things between maturity and childishness, refusing to analyze anything in the exact way they idealize.

>He was lead to believe the holy grail is an almighty wishing device able to do anything via a miracle.
That's where the "child" from "man-child" comes form.

The thing is why would someone believe that manipulating the destiny of one's ideals is a good thing? We need conflict to evolve and further advance as a species.

Broken human being. It's ironic the fanbase is literally filled with pretentious manchildren.
>wants miracle from supposedly omnipotent well of magic of lore in a universe where magic and miracles are a real fucking thing
>"Now allow me to bullshit how you should just know it's impossible."
>We need conflict to evolve and further advance as a species.
War is destructive and costly. No sane person lauds it. Murdering each other and shit doesn't advance the species. We've gotten this far by cooperation with other humans. Kiritsugu didn't want to end conflict like economic conflict or sports competition or things like that, he wanted to stop people from murdering each other and other things sane people know is bad.

right

He was a ruthless and efficient assassin that refused to accept the world the way it is and wanted to rewrite the unkind world with the one he fantasized about.

He was a man that grew-up but clung to the memories of happier times.

I suppose in a way because of his ideals

He was a hero and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

He literally never grew up dude, he calls himself ''boku'' for a reason

t. Iri

But the grail would've actually worked if hadn't been corrupted at the time, and he had no way of knowing that.

yes he is

no it woulndt have- at least not any better than the corrupted one, the grail cant into complex ideas- if you dont know how to do something neither can it

>grail is able to rip apart time and space to summon heroes from different eras
>this somehow males kiritsuguva child for believing it can create other miracles and isn't just a murder machine

Magical Contracts that prevent violent action are a fucking established thing that Kiritsugu even utilizes himself in Zero.

So why couldn't the Grail just use its infinite mana to contract all of humanity under the same terms, so no person could ever intentionally try to kill another?

I fail to see how that's somehow worse than "systematically murder every other human being on the entire planet until it's just you, iri, ad ilya"

Putting the world under a geas is a dick move but it's not entirely eliminating free will and there's probably tons of loopholes, but even just ensuring no large scale war is ever fought again is a huge win

people have to supply mana in order to sustain a contract. rin's with shirou only lasted a short amount of time. you're basically asking for all of humanity to fuck rin.

Well, I am all for it.

Summoning said heroes only to have them be killed should have been an indicator that something is not quite right.

As much as Archer hates himself and what he became, I don't think he has anything other than love for Kiritsugu.

>I wish for any man trying to start fights for his own benefits to be stopped.
>I wish for any person trying to resort to violence to be stopped
Here you go.

If Angry manjew wasn't here, it might have worked.

>implying this is a bad thing
beats fucking wormslut.

Just fucking retarded.

> that picture

Archer might call out Kiritsugu on his shitty wish, but he wouldn't sperge out like that.
even during the HGW, he made his fair share of utilitarian choices as well

> "I don't know how many people will be sacrificed, but it should be cheap if Berserker can be defeated.
Humans die anyway. It will not change the ultimate result no matter how they die."

Not really.
The Grail was an almighty system. I would have worked.

would've probably been a dystopia, where anyone who ever considers harming the other, dies

He's a badass. Something Shirou never was.

Just written to cater to them.

the underage should leave pls

>i have never read the VN and i assume my opinion matters with absolutely no knowledge of this subject.

Well a Contract requires the other party to agree to it's terms. So the grail can't make a contract with the whole of humanity to stop violence because anybody could just not sign up.

The grail also does NOT have infinite mana. And since nobody seems to know how the Grail actually works here's a little Fate Lore recap:

The Greater Grail which is just a giant magic circle located in a cave under the Ryuudou Temple in Fuyuki was set up by the founders of the grail war (Einzbern, Tohsaka and Zouken Families) to soak up the surrounding Mana of the Land for about 50 Years. After it has accumulated enough mana, It selects the masters and servants and provides the mana to summon them. The servants are then all killed in the Ritual "the Holy Grail War" and the mana of the servants is collected in the lesser grail (the vessel) which is provided by the Einzbern Family (so Irisviel in Fate/Zero and Illyasviel in FSN). After the last servant dies the Lesser grail transforms into the Holy grail.

So you cannot force the whole of humanity to become peaceful because that would take magnitudes more mana than even the grail has.
Even commands seals which also are sizeable mana reserves cannot force a servant to do something longterm.

see

This. Its a wish granting device, as in money can grant (most) of your wishes. Its effective if you have the mean to achieve something, but not the resource.

When utilized by an Einzbern, who has the Sorcery Trait of "being able to skip the process and get to the result, given enough mana", it is effectively an omniscient wishing device, which is how they plan to blow a hole into the root and take back Heaven's Feel.

Actually, thinking about it, how would the Einzberns even utilize the 3rd magic if they were to win the grail war? In the 5th war they send three homunculi, two of which are supposed to die when they reach the grail. How would they then be capable of utilizing it? Would just winning the war be enough? I would expect they'd need a physical proximity or someone capable of making use of the wishes as Ilya would be just grail at that point and the other two are just kind of useless homunculi at that point.

Maybe it has to do something with using heaven's dress, but I really wouldn't know what the technicalities would then be.

Well normally I'd assume they thought of this already.
But the Einzberns are the kings of not thinking shit through, so you may have a point

I'm almost certain that it's covered somehow, but I really cannot make sense of it with my possibly very limited and dusted knowledge of Nasuverse.

>man-child
ignore this meme, man-child refers to an adult with an immature bratty personality.
He was a mature and competent adult, just with a stupid idealistic goal

Kiritsugu's wish wasn't wrong, but his methods weren't right.

He lacked the maturity to see his ends justify the means mentality wasn't going to save anyone, and his attempt to be as selfless as possible went about in the worst way possible.

He was a man-child in that he is exactly what a Child with the power and competence to try and achieve World Peace would do, kill the bad guys and save the majority over the few, without stopping to think about the actual ramifications of that.

Then he's told a magical wishing grail will solve all his problems, only to be confronted with the fact it's a Monkey's Paw, and that he himself has no idea how to actually achieve any kind of real peace that isn't murder.

Basically he's every edgy 13 year old that thinks killing is the best solution, but actually became the badass he chunni'd himself into thinking he was, and when finally confronted with the reality he was wrong, broke.

No, not really. He had a childish wish, sure, but beyond that, he was just an assassin. A guy whose job was to kill Mages. He just also wanted to save people. To bring happiness and remove sadness. And due to the nature of his work, he came across an actual miracle, one that could make that childish wish come true, making it a realistic wish, rather than a childish wish.

Twice you lost the war. stop it.

The greater grail I'm fairly sure. The homonculus would recover it and store it in Justeaze who serves as the core of the greater grail, and someone would come pick it up later and bring it back to germany. A heaven's feel capable mystic code, like the Jewel Sword for Kaleidoscope.

>stopped
ie killed, which was the conundrum

Actually, if I remember correctly, it was mentioned that Justeaze was the only person capable of wielding Heaven's Feel. Considering from Mahoyo we know that True Magic is only bestowed to the person who used that particular path to reach the root, why would the Einzbern need to "reclaim" the lost true magic, when the generation that came up with the idea had someone perfectly capable of wielding it in the first place. A Heaven's Feel capable Mystic Code is the only thing I can think of.

So this is how Ishtar became a thing

So what is Heaven's Feel capable of?
Was it as absurd as Ars Nova?

Materialization of the souls, separating it from the vessel (body). Normally when the body dies, the souls return to the root, stripped down to the origin then recycled into fresh body. Using methods like Zouken's worm, the body can be preserved, but the souls is decayed/rotten, which then reflects upon the body. Heaven's Feel in comparison is true immortality, the soul is perfectly preserved, it can die with the vessel if it choses, or it can body hop without having the decaying negative side effect.

True Magic is not necessary "absurd", its just things that can never be achieved by science. A lot of shits from the Age of God would qualify under True Magic if performed in the modern era by a modern magus, the 3 known in the modern world are kind of piddly by comparison.

>Monkey's Paw
did you know that Monkey's Paw 's story never about twist wish machine, but story about be careful what you wish for

If you summoned Angry Manjew OUT of the Grail, would the Grail work?

no. But you summoned Angry Doggo instead

His wife called him prince of chuuni, what do you really think?

That's what makes him perfect.

>He was a man-child in that he is exactly what a Child with the power and competence to try and achieve World Peace would do, kill the bad guys and save the majority over the few, without stopping to think about the actual ramifications of that.

No; this is backwards. Children want to be Captain Marvel or Spider-Man or any of the other superheroes they pretend to be and save everyone. Adults just join the military or police force in which, if necessary, they'll be expected to kill people "for the majority" after being conditioned for the job.

Kiritsugu's mistake was that he didn't want to be a soldier; he wanted to be a superhero who saved everyone and to that end sought the power of the Grail to make this possible. Shirou also acknowledged that this would be impossible without such an artifact, using a SWAT member killing a criminal to save a hostage as an example, but in UBW decides to follow through with his desire to save everyone anyways because he believed such an ideal to be inherently beautiful.

>Kiritsugu's mistake was that he didn't want to be a soldier; he wanted to be a superhero who saved everyone
That's not a Kiritsugu thing, or even a "mistake". Everyone wants that. If you ask ANY soldier in ANY army if they would rather be a Superhero that saves everyone without killing anyone, or be a soldier, quite literally every singe one of them would pick the Superhero option. That's hardly unique to Kiritsugu. Kiritsugu wanted that, but just like any other human being, he realized that's an unreachable ideal. But unlike a normal person, he knew magic was a thing, True Magic was a thing, miracles were a thing, so he didn't give up all hope. He just continued to work as a "soldier", until he could find such a miracle. And once he learned of a way to actually make that ideal become reality, obviously he worked towards that.

>Virgin
>Edgelord
>Beta

Yep, he's a manchild

The primary difference between Shirou and Kiritsugu that Shirou already knew that you can't save everyone from the very beginning. On the way back home in the first 3 days, he even mused about it (the robbery/kidnapping scenario) and that he doesn't know how to live up to Kiritsugu's ideal.

Kiritsugu meanwhile clung to that childish dream to the very end, because it was all he has left ultimately.

>But unlike a normal person, he knew magic was a thing, True Magic was a thing, miracles were a thing, so he didn't give up all hope. He just continued to work as a "soldier", until he could find such a miracle. And once he learned of a way to actually make that ideal become reality, obviously he worked towards that.

True Magic wouldn't let him accomplish his wish, and he knows that. The miracles are only things that science cannot, and can never achieve. You can in theory (magically) give everyone a lobotomy, and bam world peace (like a few posts here mentioned). But that's not the conclusion he wanted, because that just mean enslaving everyone, not true peace.

Kiritsugu also believed it would take a miracle to save everyone that's why he participated in the holy grail war on the off-chance that it's actually real. He didn't count on it bringing only despair.

>for his own benifit
something something altruism does not exist