I came up with a UBI formula and plugged the US income statistics from 2016 into it (I could only find up to the 99th percentile- I couldn't seem to find much solid data on the incomes of the top 1% of the US- shocking), with a basic allowance of 14,000 for everyone. The blue part of the graph is the income distribution before the formula, and the red part is what the distribution looks like afterwards. If you think 14,000 isn't a fair number, give me a different number and I'll plug it in and show you what the graph would look like.
What are your thoughts? What methods would you use? Is a UBI even a viable system for America?
I'd go a little lower, a nice $1k per month makes all kinds of calculations easier. Something to consider with a UBI is that you should be able to remove most (if not all) of the welfare systems in place. You should also be able to abolish minimum wage laws. Next is a flat tax rate across the board. The simplification of government agencies would greatly decrease the overhead cost of running the system. The removal of minimum wage combined with a flat tax would spur economic growth.
Ryder Price
Do you know what the debt is of the USA? do you know that you will spiral into hyper inflation soon? Do you know who is propping up the bond market at this point??
Asher Anderson
Isn't this a form of communism?
Caleb Wright
I'd consider it a tax reform. -OP
Michael Rogers
>Communism >Stateless, moneyless society
>Basic income >The state gives you money
Alexander Jones
>>Communism >>Stateless, moneyless society
>Being as stupid as you. >Somehow not drooling all over yourself. Not buying it, friendo. Go mop yourself up.
Gabriel Nguyen
I don't have to do many calculations. I created a spreadsheet that does all the work, and all I have to do is plug in both the income values and the desired allowance. I'll turn the spreadsheet into a legible algorithm soon enough. But yeah it is all those things you mentioned. Pretty much, it takes the total income of the population, pulls a specified amount out based on your allowance, distributes the allowance evenly between all individuals within the population, and then distributes what is remaining of the total population income based on how much (percentage-wise) each individual contributed to the original sum. I'm totally on board with everything you said, it's just a matter of actually getting it done at this point because the systems in place won't get us where we need to be...
Oliver Clark
the burger response to anything
Andrew Cox
I rather hire people to kill those who try to redistribute my wealth than give it freely. Fuck off communist. Btw, every country trying to implement such pipe dream will see rich people fleeing or park their wealth where socialists don't get it. Kill yourself OP
Connor Peterson
In the sense that you are just redistributing the wealth. At some level you are just taking money from one person via taxes and giving that money to someone else.
Ian Martinez
Communism is a utopia without a monetary system or government body where all means of production are controlled by workers. The only problem is that it's impossibe for humans to achieve, making government necessary.
What the fuck do you think communism is?
Lucas Roberts
I would go further: Kill all taxes except VAT and raise it to an adequate level to cover all necessary expenses. Growth would go trough the roof since you can now produce shit at almost the same cost as China, with greatly improved quality.
Robert Hill
Yes. It's the quickest path to communism above any other proposal in the past 50 years, which is why they're trying so hard to push it. Once everyone becomes dependent on "government money", it becomes easier for government to impose whatever it wants. Turn-key communism.
Leo Turner
Congratulation, you just made food smuggling the most lucrative business in a country
Samuel Hall
>I rather hire people to kill those who try to redistribute my wealth than give it freely. You already do. It's called a government.
Ryder Russell
In my example, everyone up to the 65th percentile ($51,013) gains from the system.
Sebastian Green
Government thinks I'm unemployed and have 100 € in my account. Monero and foreign crypto exchanges btfo of the state
Isaac Evans
the bong approach
Chase Rivera
Kill yourself. The weak don't deserve to be paid by the strong. End minority protection
Ayden Nguyen
I agree with this - people shit with money will waste it and it will eventually end up in the hands of those who are good with money.
Aaron Torres
We already distribute wealth, but we do it in such a way that punishes growth. Getting rid of all previous systems and replacing them with a flat income would not only simplify things, but also promote personal growth instead of punishing it.
Logan Wright
All wealth redistribution by a central authority is theft. Go back to /leftypol/ weakling
Andrew Mitchell
>ubi should But it wont
Jason Walker
just make sure you keep enough to hire some bodyguards and put up a couple guard towers around your compound
David Turner
I just want to abolish minimum wage and the complex welfare and tax systems in place. The UBI seems like a pretty good excuse for doing that.
Caleb Torres
End the federal reserve banking system first.
Tyler Rogers
Money is a concept that is supposed to represent labor but robots are destroying the demand for human labor at a rapid rate. How else do we combat this? Besides, most jobs that are available to us anyways are practically slave labor for some corrupt, pollutant, counterproductive corporation who sucks the life and money out of every living thing they can get their hands on. And they pay good money to make sure that we can't get by without their employment.
Ethan Morris
Not really, it's just a redistribution of wealth. Consider that modern-day crony-capitalism isn't the 'ideal capitalism', UBI wouldn't move the needle one bit on a scale from capitalism to communism. Also consider that the only kind of socialized welfare that makes sense with an UBI are health and education, everything else (mostly housing, food, and emergency allowances) has to go away - if those are still a serious nation-wide problem, the solution becomes to increase the UBI, and if the nation can't do that then you know you can't afford to fix those problems.
Carter Wilson
There would be no central authority. It would be a platform by which people cooperate.
Benjamin Hughes
I like the idea of basic income because of how much it will cut government bureaucracy. Its not perfect but its less flawed than the system we already have.
Jayden Perry
No. What you suggest is theft diguised as help muah poor weaks who would for the most part not exist in a non socialist country. In addition it lowers the incentive to produce wealth. Again, all forms of wealth redistribution are theft. Minority protection is just an excuse for more inefficient centralized control. Fuck off lazy /leftypol/ poor fag
Logan Sanders
Abandoned communist circle jerk thread
Fuck off you lazy food hating poor fags
Connor Turner
Indeed. And these problems (Education, health, food, shelter) can all be prioritized by the UBI and provided based on monetary value rather than giving people the cash to spend on whatever they'd like. These things would obviously be decided by constant coting. Imagine waking up in the morning and taking a two minute survey every day. That wouldn't be bad but it would compel the entire system into a direction that everyone could agree on. And don't get me started on the fact that representatives should make the average income of the people that they represent.
Justin Scott
Meldung an die Wirtschafts- und Korruptionsstaatsanwaltschaft ist raus :)
Liam Carter
Are you mentally stable?
William Scott
With UBI people will have no reason to work. It would be a car better thing to offer guarenteed employment, that any who wants to work will be found meaningful labor. That way work gets done, and the gov't doesn't tax everyone to death.
Parker Reyes
if all welfare is removed and replaced with UBI on the same budget, it would be alright
Mason Gray
What gives everyone up to the 65th percentile the right to take from everyone else? How is this any different from stealing?
Oliver Miller
This pic really tells the whole story: >Americans are already re-distributing wealth, so that households get about $50k/year anyway BUT >poor households can't optimize their expenses like they could if they had the money, they have to waste time with bureocracy and use the aids as they come THAT'S FUCKING WASTEFUL. Give them the money and let the hand of the free market do its magic. It will also be good for the GDP, if the concept of 'money velocity' makes any sense to you. Also, the way it's distributed disincentivizes working more, because of the traps.
Joseph Bennett
You're implying that labor is a constant necessity. There are seven and a half billion people on the planet. Trying to keep us all being productive is more counterproductive than anything.
Dylan Miller
>>The state gives you money >this is what UBIlets believe
Tyler Sullivan
I agree that guaranteed employment (if you don't have any already) may be a better solution. Like 20 hours of community service a week.
But the "will have no reason to work" is objectively wrong. Pussy will always be the reason to work, to be better than your neighbor, to brag that you have something shinier will always motivate someone to work or steal.
Levi Butler
No one deserves to earn $300,00 a year in a society where people starve. Especially when there aren't enough productive jobs to go around. That, to me, is what is stealing.
Liam Hall
>Next is a flat tax rate across the board. Now that I can't believe. I can imagine some form of UBI coming up in the future but the people in power would never approve a flat tax rate. Tax optimisation is THE way for richfags and powerfags to tax the middle class like fuck and be spared.
Leo Phillips
That is not remotely "the goal." The goal is to provide people a fair share of the increased productivity of the economy due to automation, since technology will make meaningful contributions to the economy untenable for an increasing proportion of the population.
In other words, it will become as ridiculous to demand that people "earn a living" through the market as it is now ridiculous to demand that people process their own sewage. Which, BTW, once was indeed an individual responsibility, and cities were literal cesspools as a result.
I'm as eager as you for bold experiments, but we need to find out how the usual bastards are going to corrupt and undermine BI before giving them a massive target to sabotage and then just declare it a failure. Also, people need to get used to the idea, learn how it works (and how it doesn't, yet), and let it become a part of the culture that is unassailable.
Justin Allen
Who gets to decide who has to be productive and who doesn't?
Matthew Reyes
it's inevitable
Logan Robinson
People would not be forced into counterproductive workplaces and would have the ability to explore things that actually hold value in their minds, ultimately making them more productive. But again, productivity is not an issue so whether or not a person is using his or her life in a productive manner should not determine whether or not that person gets to live healthily.
Juan Brown
Bumb the fuck out of this.
Lucas Young
When was the last time someone actually starved to death in the united states?
Jace Martinez
>the tenets of communism being enforced without a state >ever >beimg a droolimg retard
John Price
To death? I'm not sure. But if death is your standard for failure then you're obviously a sad human being.
Sebastian Perez
Why stop at $14,000 though, surely if you give everyone 1 million dollars and everyone is a millionaire, no-one will be poor and all our problems are solved!
You are a moron who doesn't understand the first thing about economics.
William Williams
Because, as the graph I provided clearly indicates, $14,000 is enough to allow the lower class to survive healthily while still allowing for the existence of an upper class. I'd say the range would be anywhere from $10k-$20k
Aaron Bailey
Because right now nobody in America lives off welfare, right. Here in Europe it's a bigger phenomenon, but you have it too. Living with just the UBI is supposed to be shitty living anyway, and with no welfare traps, or indeed any other welfare to latch on, the only way to improve one's condition is to EARN MORE. We could talk about the mental health of the people willing to live on $1k/month, that barely hits the poverty line. Who the fuck is ok with living in poverty, but having a lot of free time to... wallow in it? When they could do anything at all, even something risky like starting a business since poverty-living is guaranteed, to better their position? BTW, in most tests the things that commonly happen are that people get some extra education or start small businesses.
Jeremiah Stewart
I assumed that's what you meant by "starved". How many people are actually malnourished in the united states from lack of work? Seems like any kind of undernourishment you would see is related to mental illness or negligent parents. Even those cares seem pretty rare.
Juan Ramirez
How do children work with UBI? Does the parent get the full UBI benefit as soon as they're born, or is it phased in?
Jordan Walker
Ayn Rand's system of Laissez-faire Capitalism>literally ever other system. And not in my opinion either. >inb4 some cryptocom larping as altright calls her a kike I got eyes on your favotite tactic leftys. Reminder that like how Marxism is meta-communism; Objectivism is meta-capitalism and is the bar none greatest threat the left has ever encountered.
Gavin Ward
Guy standing really makes a strong case of the moral obligation of having a basic income regardless of automation.
>14,000 for everyone in the US It make 4.5 trillions a year, this is 23% of your GDP.
Where will the money come from?
Christian Morales
That would have to be considered in detail. But I think personally that the first child should be covered in full, and then each child thereafter would have less and less coverage to encourage small families.
Jeremiah Hall
kill yourself
Josiah Rivera
Yeah, but we need section 8 to relocate the niggers in whites areas. You don't want any white community to survive, do you?
Zachary Cooper
It will come from the GDP. I explained this earlier.
Justin Parker
Have you even studied any fall of communist/left wing economic systems? Allowing a parasite class to thrive will only increase the drain on a system, which then will inevitiably cause the contry to collapse (or the state to take drastic measures to stave off the collapse such as forced labour camps or systematic execution/starvation)
Scarcity is the primary limiter of growth, removal of said scarcity will only serve to increase growth to unsustainable levels. You are a moron and the only thing you deserve for free is a helicopter ride over a large body of water.
Dylan Hernandez
They're supposed to get welfare in the form of >public schools >health care (in countries that care about it) >maternity/paternity leave and other extra rights for parents and no UBI until they're 18 or otherwise emancipated. Giving children an 'UBI' would fall under a different kind of welfare, and basically be a child allowance given to the parent. It's not part of the basic plan.
Carson Rodriguez
What about immigrants? Do you have to be a citizen to acquire UBI?
Nathan Lopez
Yes, of course. But hopefully it could become a global system transcendent of borders.
Logan Cox
So, 4,5 trillions is 115% of 3,9.
In order to give just 14k to everyone, we don't simply need to shut down everything, we also need to increase all the taxes and all the debts taken by 15%.
If we want to do it without taking more debt, taxes should be increased by approximately 50% but I am not calculating that.
Charles Green
Great idea. The only thing is that if children are free to support, people will have as many as they want and we could not support that. It's already becoming an issue.
Carson Taylor
So, people in Bangladesh would get as many $ as us? And it would be all paid with our money?
Good luck voting for that in a democracy.
Chase Roberts
Did you look at the graph?
Jacob Jackson
Wouldn't that require an incredibly powerful centralized government to tax people sufficiently to redistribute the incomes? Doesn't this centralization pose a risk of an incredibly powerful government that could chose to simply cull the worthless leech class?
Carson Bell
Burgers are always right when it comes to economics. While you dipshit Europeans were running your dipshit socialist experiments WE were mastering economics so thoroughly that you pissed yoir pants at the "brain drain" it caused in your countries.
Jayden Garcia
You could still work for extra money for luxuries, and to feel superior since I know that’s what a lot of narcissists worry about.
Justin Williams
No. They'd pay as much tax as a US citizen and gain as much from it. I think you're all overestimating the cost of sustaining a society.
Easton Williams
What does the typical faggot like yourself worry about?
Daniel Thomas
I think you're being overly optimistic of an all powerful centralized world government
David Green
It wouldn't require such an entity, no. It coud be based on a transparent voting system. It could be practically self sustaining in its own right. It could be programmed to shut down if the vote was cast. There are many options with the technologies we have today. We don't have to use such archaic models.
Evan Torres
You expect the taxpayer in Bangladesh to pay $40 000 in taxes every years?
Are you fucking serious?
Lucas Lewis
>I think you're all overestimating the cost of sustaining a society. Just like any communist, you haven't got the first clue how anything works, let alone a country. How is Venezuela going these days?
Brandon Martinez
>What methods would you use?
The only way you could have a UBI that wouldn't immediately increase the cost of living would be to fund it via a land value tax
Kevin Rivera
You're entirely misunderstanding the premise.
Jaxson Davis
It’s already that way with welfare dumbass. Single mother with five kids already drains the system.
Austin Morris
It´s the best way to drive 3rd world savages to your nation. Cause even if the basic income is universal, obviously wealth in Indiana would not be the same as in Rwanda, if they have any. We have basic income in certain regions here in Spain, obviously it´s making everything go to hell, with Bilbao being flooded with muslims.
Charles Perez
It's been proven that people know better what to spend their money on than the government does.
Rather than giving people $300 worth of food every month, it's better to just give them $300 and let them figure out what to buy, which usually won't be just food, but other necessities that have priorities the government could never anticipate.
I think the only reason foodstamps etc. exist is because blacks really are too stupid to use their money to buy food and would actually starve themselves to death.
Matthew Edwards
Hey now hold up. SOME Americans are always right, but the people running our economy right now are freaking idiots. Take Paul Krugman, for example. He, together with those wishing to end "racist home lending" practices, created the housing bubble that caused the housing crash.
Dylan Hall
UBI is ultimately slavery that precedes mass culling. It forces the lowest classes to depend on a central government for survival, this means such a government will see this class as a leech class rather than the bottom class of workers which are still necessary for society. It becomes only a matter time until the ruling elites decide this leech class no longer has a reason to exist.
Jordan Nelson
That's why there are regulations put in place.
Connor Nguyen
The well being of everyone. Try it sometime if you can ever get over yourself.
Ethan Hughes
I hate most people and see you all as the competition. I'd rather most of you were dead.
Hudson Rogers
of course niggers and leftists would be happy a short span of time, but it wouldn't last for too long. Uncontrolled inflation what would come after universal basic income, it would destroy the economy, bank system would collapse and currency would lose its stability because of credit devaluation.
It would end like the east block economy from 1970-1990
Jose White
No doubt you learned that mentality from your father.
Aiden Campbell
You're a little misguided; it all depends on were the money is collected from, the correct way is to take from the leeches
pic related
Lucas Sullivan
I'm working right now and make less than $1k/mo
I'd make more money on welfare than working a part time job, but I work a part time job instead of going on welfare so that in the future, while pursuing a full time job, I don't get my resume trashed instantly for not having enough work experience or whatever other arbitrary requirements an employer puts out there. (honestly I think a good amount of the jobs out there could literally be done by people with nothing more than on-the-job training, seems to be how it's unofficially done via nepotistic hires already anyways)
Jaxon Murphy
>Implying there are none here They require an ammount of years living here. Doesn´t matter. NGOs fake their documents and that´s it. Regulations are made for the same politicians that fucked up everything. So things get fucked up again. UBI gives you just immigrants and depressed neets.
Luke Ross
You fucking commie retards keep needing it explained and reexplained to you why treatimg human beings like ants in an anthill is a bad fucking idea. With all the proof on our side and none of it yours. UI of /any/ variety wojld destroy the value of the currency almost immediately, and it would certainly lead into hyperinflation quite quickly
Zachary Mitchell
>Burgers are always right when it comes to economics.