There are people who cheered for the little bitch Vegeta

>there are people who cheered for the little bitch Vegeta
Why?

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because its boring that goku always wins

Goku has more losses than wins.

I demand proof

me too

Because anti-heroes are always much more likable than total babyface characters.
And this is not only true for dragon ball, even in history the anti-heroes always are cherished.

I guess that's because it reminds people of their lives, no one is perfect.

He tries very hard. That's something people can relate to so they want him to win.

Because they are filthy secondaries that started with Z, probably americans.
If you started in DB as a kid and got to know Goku well when he was also a kid, it's impossible to ever want him to lose, he is much too likable.

>That art-style
What happened Yammamuro?

Vegeta is the character for contrarian idiots who are too ashamed of themselves to ever sincerely cheer for a good person. He obviously has redeeming points but in this context cheering for him is the height of contrarianism.

>le I saw dragonball you filthy casuals

Goku's wide eye innocence isn't as endearing as it was when he was a child. At that point you're just enabling him.

Goku's record against major antagonists is pretty rough. He hasn't straight up beaten one since Frieza thus far. And even if you want to count his decimation of the RR, Vegeta has killed many more people.

I can understand liking Vegeta for his development, but yearning for him to be the main protagonist just reeks of dick measuring contest, as well as missing the point of his arc.

Goku...
>lost against Raditz
>tied with Vegeta
>lost against Ginyu
>barely won against Frieza
>lost against Androids 19 and 20
>lost against Cell
>lost against Beerus
>lost against Whis (while training, so this doesn't technically count)
>lost against not-Frieza from U6 (although he was cheating)
>lost against Hit (twice)
>lost against Goku Black in several occasions
>tied with Android 17

I only like ocean dub Vegeta from the saiyen and namek saga

Actually, you can add He lost too Vegeta too. Vegeta broke every bone in Goku's body, and he was complete crippled.

Dont care what anyine says If Goku can use Kaioken 100x then Vegeta can use Oozaru. Plus victory goes to the lastman standing.

Side Note why cant Goku ever lose "clean"? There's always some bs excuse for him. Guess Goku was the original John Cena.

>Lost againt Raditz
It was 2v1 admittedly, but it was clearly a win, or at the very least a tie.

>Lost against Vegeta
Alright, that's one loss.

>Won against Jeice, Burter and Recoome
That's three wins

>Lost against Ginyu
Two losses

>Barely won against Frieza
A win is a win: four wins

>Lost against Androids 19 and 20
Does it really count as a loss when it's his heart disease taking over? Let's be really unfair and say it does, and let's even count it as two losses: that's four losses for those keeping track.

>Lost against Cell
Five losses

>Won against Buu
Five wins

>Won against Frieza, again
Six wins

>Won against Winnie the Pooh
Seven wins

>Frost cheating
You said it yourself, that's invalid. But even if we're unfair, that's six losses.

>Lost against Hit (twice)
Eight losses

>Won against Zamasu
Eight wins

Even if we're incredibly unfair, Goku ties. And that's excluding ToP ring-outs and his victories in the original dragonball as well as filler victories..

you forgot nappa

>why

Spend most of your life ruled by another, watch your race dwindle to a handful...and then tell me what has more meaning than watching Vegeta win. He had the blood of a Saiya-jin prince. Goku is nothing but a joke. Yet, I've had to watch him surpass Vegeta in strength..his plot thrown to the wayside! He's...he's even saved Vegeta's life as if he were a helpless child.

Pic related, too.

He didn't win against Zamasu, though. Trunks and then Zeno defeated and killed him, respectively.
Goku couldn't defeat Zamasu because he was immortal, and Goku black had a powerup every three seconds.

>Plus victory goes to the lastman standing.
Then Vegeta didn't win. He even insists that he lost.

Vegeta Won. He was just not satisfied with it.

It's pretty simple. If you like Vegeta and don't like Goku (or at least not nearly as much), you want him to pull through and have his share of the glory instead of always losing.

Even if Vegeta lost, Yajirobe, Gohan and Krillin all contributed far too much for it to count as a win for Goku. I think the fairest thing is to just look at how the fight went when it was still just Goku vs Vegeta, which was Vegeta about to kill Goku.

Manlets need a strong embodiment of what they feel like they could be. When will they learn.

this. heroes are boring because they're goodie two shoes faggots who do good just for the sake of doing good. especially Goku. he is completely void of any kind of personality because of this. Vegeta fights for what he believes in. he has his own ambitions. unlike Goku who just does the right thing every time like a fucking robot. the villain almost always has much better, more relatable and more genuine reasons for doing evil than the good guy does for doing good.

I mean if you're talking about individual battles then vegeta won that bout, but what about the period of time after goku arrives on namek?
If you compare how people measured up at that time, goku beat someone who completely destroyed vegeta with a single punch, and up to the end of the frieza saga goku was always more powerful than vegeta when he was in action.

Goku doesn't even give a shit about doing good. He's literally only a fighting autist that wants to fight strong guys.

>raditz was technically a tie.
>he tied with vegeta, though he came off worse with help.
>only because ginyu literally swapped into his body, ginyu was outclassed in terms of strength.
>by the end of the frieza saga frieza was nearly dead and goku still had enough energy to give some to frieza and still fly across the planet to find a ship.
>mostly lost to 19 and 20 due to his heart being fucked by a virus.
>cell was an actual loss
all the others aren't canon in the original manga.

>Cheering for anybody instead of appreciating the beautiful combat between two rivals.
Plebs.

>Not wanting tho OP MC to lose for once.

Vegeta was always annoying with that supid tsundereish pride. I don't want this kind of character to succeed at all. While Goku is always chill and like.. we know him since DB and god tier budokai arcs. Why would I even want him to lose to some asshole like Vegeta?

I just personally don't like him because it's not fun watching a 40+ year old man bitch and moan about someone becoming stronger than him. It was fun at first when he was evil and had no allies due to him betraying Frieza, watching him have ballistic reactions to everything to see if he'll get along with Gohan and Krillin or not to whatever mood he's in was fun. Yet, once he became a family man the fun eventually stopped and it just seemed like a middle-aged man trying to relive his old days.

It's the same with Goku, once all his martial arts friends/teachers died or retired, he had nothing to do but wait for the next alien attack. That's what Dragon Ball Super is about, watching 2 middle aged men attempting to relive their glory days.

Gohan on the other hand, the character we known for whining all the time had legitimate reason because he was a fucking child all the way from his debut to the Cell Games Saga. Once he became an adult, he gave up his passiveness to become the Alpha he was meant to be. Even when Gohan loses, he still doesn't get that down about it and works to improve. While doing all of this, he knows how to be a proper family man.

I have to disagree, I think Vegeta's character development from selfish asshole to caring father has been one of the best parts of his character.

Because he always pulls some bullshit out of his when the plot demands it. But I suppose that's a problem with Dragonball as a whole.

>"Vegeta, a caring father"
>Spends most of the time bullying his future son until that son fucking dies
>Hasn't hugged his actual son until he's ready to sacrifice his life to kill a demonic pink blob

Vegeta was a heroic father, but his actual care moments is spent when he's about to die. Gohan in an alternate future spent the best years of his life helping Bulma raise Trunks and now he gave up fighting to give his own daughter a stable lifestyle.

Heck, even Goku raised Gohan normally for the first 5 years of his life and still let's Goten hang around him when he's farming.

His interactions with Future Trunks are shitty but thats the very beginning of his character development in a family aspect. Baby Trunks was just born and him and Bulma aren't even together yet. They bond in the ROSAT, and he obviously comes to care for him by the end as shown by his outrage when Cell killed him. Basically he got a taste of what being a father would be like, then is starting fresh with a baby. In the early stages of the Buu arc we see he spends time with Trunks, training him and sharing his interest, and he even spends regular family time with him and Bulma. Overall it's a rough transition but he's doing pretty well I think.

>Barely won
There is no such word in shounens.

Original Dragonball:

Wins vs. Oolong
>Lost to Yamcha
Wins vs. Monster Carrot
Wins vs. Pilaf gang
Wins vs. Police Arresting Launch
Wins vs. Krillin
Wins vs. Undisclosed amount of Preliminary fighters in tournament
Wins vs. Giran
Wins vs. Nam
>Loses vs. Jackie Chun
Win vs. Colonel Silver
Win vs. Muscle Tower Guards
Wins vs. Major Metallatron
Wins vs. Ninja Murasaki
Wins vs. Murasaki's brothers
Win vs. Buyon
Win vs. Murasaki (rematch)
Wins vs. Street fighters
Wins vs. Pirate Robot
Wins vs. Commander blue
Wins vs. Captain Yellow
>Loss vs. Taopiepie
Win vs. Tao (rematch)
Win vs. Entire RR army
Win vs. Bandages
Win vs. Spike the Devilman
Win vs. Grandpa Gohan
Win vs. Mecha Suit Pilaf Gang
Win vs. Terror & Plague
Win vs. Sky Dragon
Win vs. Shula
Win vs. king choppa
Win vs. Pomput
Win vs. Krillin
>Loss vs. Tien
>Loss vs. Tambourine
Tie vs. Yajirobi
Win vs. Tambourine (rematch)
>Loss vs, King Piccolo
Win vs. Drum
Win vs. King Piccolo (rematch)
Win vs. Preliminaries
Win vs. Chichi
Win vs. Tien (rematch)
Win vs. Piccolo jr.

Total 40-6-1
Loss to yamcha was because he was hungry.
Loss to Jackie Chune was because he got tricked
Loss to Tien due to getting hit by a car
Loss to Tambourine due to not being fully recovered from the tournament

Literally only 2 legit losses, once to Taopaipai, and once to King Piccolo. Both times he came back and kicked their asses.

Goku did not Tie with Vegeta suring the saiyan saga, Vegeta kicked his fucking ass the first time they met.

To Vegeta, having to go monkey in order to beat a lower class warrior (who couldn't go monkey himself due to his lack of a tail) was a huge blow to his pride. He lost as a man and could only win as a monkey.

It doesn't matter how he thinks of it, he still beat Goku.

It matters to him, and his opinion is the only one that matters. Back then, Vegeta valued his pride more than anything else.

See, it's like beating a game using cheat codes. Yeah, you technically won, but so what?

That's literally the only thing that matters, since who "wins" a fight is entirely subjective we have to rely on what the characters believe. Every main character says that vegeta lost the fight, so we have to go with that narrative.

Adding to this, Vegeta's issue was that he was always forced to take the easy way. He won the battle, but always lost the war.

>Goku VS Vegeta (1st): Had to use his monkey form. He managed to dominate, but only after Goku proved that he was superior in terms of technique and skill.
>Ginyu Force: Goku beat up a bunch of guys who were kicking Vegeta's ass just moments before. Vegeta was forced to be aware of just how much stronger Goku was at this point in time.
>Freeza: Even after abusing the "Get stronger after I almost die" clause MULTIPLE TIMES throughout Namek, Goku's still stronger. On top of that, Goku's the first to become a Super Saiyan, something Vegeta's DREAMED of ever since he was a kid. AND, Goku's the one who gets to defeat Freeza. By this point, Goku's basically stolen all of Vegeta's birthrights seemingly without even trying.
>Cell: Goku got more mileage out of his time in the Exaggerated Chrono Room than Vegeta did. Despite spending less than a year in there, he's able to go toe-to-toe with Perfect Cell, whereas Vegeta, after spending a year and a half, is still inferior.
>Boo: Looked forward to fighting Goku again after seemingly finally managing to catch up, but then for a brief instant Vegeta was able to feel that Goku was STILL so much stronger than he was. Thus he made a deal with the devil, finally evening the odds. Except it doesn't because Goku was holding back the whole time.

So really, you can see why he was so pissed.

>since who "wins" a fight is entirely subjective
No it isn't you idiot. Their 1v1 ended with Goku's bones broken and Vegeta standing over him. How Vegeta personally views the victory is irrelevant, he still won. Actually trying to argue against this is fucking retarded.

>another retard who thinks Vegeta transforming was akin to cheating
Glad to know that Sup Forums thinks Goku cheated when he beat Frieza, or that time Gohan cheated when he beat Cell. .

>irrelevant

How is that irrelevant? The one most affected by that fight views it as a humiliating loss. Everyone else has already more or less forgotten about it shortly after, but Vegeta carried that shit for YEARS.

Of course it's relevant. No one else cares more about the outcome of that fight than him. Even if you combined every single person in the world, Vegeta's feelings would still trump them.

Again, what matters is how Vegeta feels. Seriously, no one even gives a shit about that fight anymore. By the time Namek happened, it was just a minor event to all parties involved EXCEPT Vegeta.

CELL > FRIEZA

And it's irrelevant how he views it. He doesn't even see it as a loss, he was just pissed he had to Transform to beat Goku, he never said "fuck, I lost. Goku beat me" He said "I can't believe I had to transform in order to beat this low class peon". It's not a loss in any sense of the word. He beat Goku. End of story.

I really don't think it's fair to say that Vegeta's technique of creating a fake moon and then oozaru form are any worse than Goku being gifted kaio-ken while he was dead. Vegeta didn't want to use it because he thought Goku was way beneath him, he didn't realize Goku had a literal god technique to triple his strength. Vegeta is pissed yeah but he won outright.

That's fantastic, and I never argued against how characters in universe viewed the fight post namek. The fact is that Vegeta won against his fight with Goku. How he personally feels about the win doesn't matter at all. He won. Sure, it's humiliating that he had to transform but Goku was just that strong and by that point he didn't even see Goku as a rival. He still won, though.

this. After I watched dragon ball, I always want Goku to win. He's a true hero.

>Vegeta cheated when he went Oozaru
>Goku didn't cheat when he used Kaioken
Someone explain this to me.

Try saying that to Vegeta. He'd just rant at you for looking down on his pride and kill you. Dude may be the Prince of all Saiyans, but he's the King of all Hissy-fits.

Think of it like this. A sports team favored to win the championship plays the worst team, and barely wins. Scraping by against someone significantly worse than you is still a victory, but can easily be viewed as something to be ashamed of.

Vegeta already said he counted it as a win in universe you ape, he just didn't like how he had to transform to do it. He never counted it as a loss.

Goku doesn't care, Vegeta does.

Victory doesn't really matter that much if the victor is more ashamed of his win than the loser. I mean, what's the point in winning if he can't be proud of it? It's not like money was involved or anything.

>Victory doesn't really matter that much if the victor is more ashamed of his win than the loser.
Yeah, Tell that to Goku's broken bones.

>what's the point in winning if he can't be proud of it?
He still won. Again, how he see's the victory is irrelevant. He doesn't even see it as a loss, get this through your fucking head. He was just angry that he had to transform because he thought Goku was some weak low class plebshit trash when goku was a low class with god moves. He had to transform because Goku took him by surprise and that angered him. He still kicked Goku's ass, though. There is absolutely no way you can logically argue against this.

Why would Vegeta's feelings be relevant to whether he won or not?

If Goku felt like he won, and Vegeta felt like he won, whose words would you take to declare the winner? What if both of them felt like they lost?

He didn't win though. The fight never finished, yajirobi interrupted it and then vegeta got his ass beat by gohan/krillin/spirit bomb.


Had Yajirobi not interrupted things Goku might have gone Kaioken x 20 and shoved a spirit bomb up his ass

Since when did the winners of fights have to have their lives spared by the losers?
>Vegecucks will try and defend this

>He has a better backstory
>He has had the most character development of any DBZ character
>He is selfmade man until that point. (goku trained and learned tecniques of other people, Vegeta taught himself)
>He isn't as annoyingly stupid as goku
>Samurai Values
>".. but there's something a sayian always keeps, his pride!"

Come at me

>He didn't win though
Yes he did. You are aware that this entire argument is focusing on the 1v1 against Goku and Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga, right? The fight ended with Goku getting crushed to death by Vegeta. Vegeta won the fight, then got ganged up on by three other people and lost. He still beat Goku 1v1.

Goku's bones took far less time to heal than Vegeta's pride.

To put it another way, even after all of Goku's bones were shattered, he was still able to smile and laugh. Vegeta got the better result, but the blow to his pride stayed with him for over a decade.

Fundamentally, it's an issue of attitude.

Well, from my point of view, the one who is most affected by the outcome is the one who really wins or loses in the end. The victory itself is just a minor footnote. Most people forgot about it, so the fact that Vegeta won doesn't really matter to anyone other than him.

Like, a fact is a fact, and nothing can change that. But not all facts have the same value. Most minor facts end up forgotten. If someone loses something and forgets about it the next day, then it really doesn't matter at all in the end. But if a fact, no matter how small, minor or forgotten, ends up affecting someone for years to come, then ultimately, their feelings on the subject are the only ones that matter. No one else places any value on it other than him and him alone.

>Had Yajirobi not interrupted things Goku might have gone Kaioken x 20 and shoved a spirit bomb up his ass
The same Goku that spent over a month in a hospital bed because all of his bones were broken?

also manlet

>Well, from my point of view, the one who is most affected by the outcome is the one who really wins or loses in the end.
Glad to see you openly admit your logic is retarded.

You idiots, Goku was holding back. Since when has broken bones even meant anything in a DBZ fight?

He could hardly move after Vegeta crushed him you faggot, and Vegeta couldn't even fight back against 18 anymore after she broke his arm. Broken bones in DBZ always mattered.

Holding back? Not in that fight. I mean goku has held back after that fight, but that fight was all-out for goku.

Rewatch it if you don't believe me

>most of that fight was filler
what happened to toei

Vegeta beat goku and then Yajirobe, Gohan and Krillin jumped in and beat vegeta after he was weakened. This is basic shit user.

Friendly reminder that without hax god technique Kaio-ken Goku was significantly weaker than Vegeta all the way until super saiyan.

Suppose you're playing chess and checkmate your opponent, but neither of you acknowledge it and the match keeps going and you lose.

Who really wins the match?

Checkmate, vegeta fags

That's a terrible analogy. Goku didn't beat Vegeta 1v1. Vegeta acknowledged that he beat Goku, he was just mad that he had to put in effort because he though Goku was weak. Also Goku had three other people help him after he lost his 1v1.

It's easy to relate to Vegeta there.
Always wanting to be the best but there's always someone one step ahead you no matter what. Always.

Whats the chess analogy version of the game turning into a 1v4 with people surprise attacking and using teamwork against you right as you're about to win?

My point was, in order for a win to count, one or both parties have to acknowledge that it counts. You seem to think Vegeta doesn't think he lost to goku. He literally wouldn't have gotten so emo about it had he thought he legitimately won the fight. I can't seem to convince you otherwise on this, so I'll just say watch the anime and bow out

Right, like how he used the kaioken against the Ginyu Force

Yajirobe cutting off vegeta's tail = fat guy knocking the board and putting the pieces back on in a different position

Gohan taking over the fight = letting your kid play for a few minutes after you're already in a dominant position while you go take a piss break

Gohan reflecting the spirit bomb = telling your kid which piece to move

Krillin not stabbing vegeta = letting your opponent resign instead of playing out the final move

>Vegeta so weak that a literal child and an even smaller manlet blow him the fuck out and the enemy that he "defeated" tells them to spare his life
No wonder he's so angry

>My point was, in order for a win to count, one or both parties have to acknowledge that it counts.
>I-It doesn't count!!!!
That's fucking retarded. Anybody who actually tries to argue that Vegeta lost that fight always sound like absolute retards.

>Why?
He is a better Dad.

>Trunks is like 10 the first time Vegeta even gives him a hug
>good dad
Gotens upset little rant after Vegeta knocks out Trunks about what a dad is supposed to do is also very telling

Goten is a retarded little brat, Vegeta did that before sacrificing himself to try and save the the both of them.

He didn't win though. Goku was not incapacitated. At most, you could say it was a draw.

>Vegeta acknowledged that he beat Goku
When? I remember him always treating it like a loss, like the monkey thing didn't matter.

That's wrong, Goku was still in the fight. The three jumped in to aid him. You retards act like he was out when the Spirit Bomb that fucked up Vegeta was his move.

Vegetafags are so desperate.

And if he was a better father and not obsessed with being defeated by Goku then Buu likely never would have been awakened and he wouldn't have to sacrifice himself
Really the entire Buu saga is Vegetas fault for not being able to man up and accept the past

>I remember him always treating it like a loss
Then you're not remembering it properly, Vegeta never considered stomping Goku into the dirt as a loss. He was just pissed it took so much effort. Read the thread.

Buu would have woken up anyway, Vegeta fighting Goku just sped it up. Buu just started absorbing all energy that that released on the planet so he would have woken up at some point regardless of whether Vegeta and Goku had a sparring match or not.

Future Trunks proved that wrong
Also interesting how Trunks without a father is a better character than the Trunks that grew up with Vegeta
No dad > Vegeta for a dad

Trunks also lived in a completely different timeline where everyone he knew died. Of course he would be a different character. It's not as if the only different factor was Vegeta being around. Also Super's dumb plot holes don't change that int he Buu Saga he would have woken up anyway, He was 100% absorbing energy. The reason Buu didn't awaken during the Future Timeline was because everyone was fucking dead and he had no energy to siphon from.

Super is so retarded, they have Vegeta have this huge breakthrough at the end of Z, then throw all that development out the window, at least that's how i remember it

youtube.com/watch?v=kBuRlN17UyU

>kill babidi
>can't finish the spell to wake Buu
>Buu remains sealed
>n-n-no it was gonna happen anyway, Vegeta was a good boy, dindu nuffin
The absolute state of Vegecucks

This guy gets it

manlets