Who was right? Who was wrong?

Who was right? Who was wrong?

Both were pretentious shitfaced retards. But that's Tomino's Gundam for you, or any Gundam for that matter

The TITANS were right

bright

Doesn't matter, federation sucks.
Origin OVA subs when

>But that's Tomino's Gundam for you
>Implying old Gundam isn't the only true Gundam
>Implying Nu-Gundam Seed derivatives aren't a hot pile of anime stereotype shit

loli clones and jpop princess idols for everyone.

Give me my own suit and we have a deal.

October 13th

Spacenoid independence may be a a sympathetic end goal, but every Zeon regime has been autocratic murderous war criminals.

>the guy who wanted to drop a big rock on the Earth and kill everyone

>the guy who wanted to prevent said giant rock from being dropped and killibg everyone

All these years later and I still can't solve the moral enigma that Tomino has created.

Char is literally throwing a tantrum.

I'm not saying Amuro's a pure innocent clean slate, but I don't know how you can spin him being in the wrong in CCA.

Of course Amuro & Bright were right. But Char " literally throwing a tantrum" is disingenuous.
He was fighting for the same reason he always fought, to save mankind. He got twisted up so bad during whatever the fuck he was doing in ZZ that he started thinking the earth had to be sacrificed.

At the end of the day it's a simple fight between realist "only humanity"Char and idealist "humans and earth"Amuro, and the issue gets misinterpreted because of some stupid shit he says about Lala at the end.

No he didn't. The problem with understanding Char in CCA is that his path leading to CCA started back before Zeta. Without that context, you're left gasping for straws as to why Char decided to drop a rock on Earth this time around other than muh Lalah mom.

>achieved complete revenge in the OYW, which was everything he wanted to do in his life
>disappears to live a peaceful life
>reappears as part of the AEUG and everyone assumes hes just trying to protect Spacenoids from atrocities
>stops AEUG and Jupiter's whole scheme
>disappears to live a peaceful life
>Neo Zeon problem got fixed in ZZ without Char's intervention
>Char still in hiding
>Char suddenly reappears and takes the mantle of Neo Zeon
>Char suddenly wants to drop a rock on Earth
>Char suddenly wants to fight Amuro again
>Char decides its unfair to fight Amuro in a plain jane Gundam, gives him psycoframe tech for a fair matchup
>Char suddenly brings up Lalah again after all these years towards the end of his life

It seems that sometime between the end of Zeta and before CCA, Char experienced a mid life crisis. He did everything he wanted to do with his life and went back into civilian life twice. And he still could not find inner peace.

The times when he was fighting Amuro, the times when he was putting his life on the line, those were the times that were happiest to him. He was a man who lost his sense of purpose in life, and wanted to gain it all back like a rockstar's comeback tour. And he was going to do it in grand fashion with a climactic battle with his old frienemy.

In the end, he knew he didn't have a good reason for all the evil he did in CCA. He tried to win the verbal argument by blaming Amuro for taking away his mother figure. Even after all these years, thats the best thing he could hold against Amuro.

tl;dr - Char retired early, decided retirement sucked, wanted to have fun with Amuro one more time, only way to fight Amuro for real was to drop a rock on Earth, also Lalah

I haven't heard this before.
I'll consider it an interesting theory then.
I did think with how he acts, he doesn't really want to win against Amuro.
But to say he only wants to have fun, and doesn't have a shred of belief in what he's doing. I'd need more proof of that.

You are ignoring that the Federation never reformed after Zeta like Char wanted them to. Just taking out the Titans and Haman`s Neo Zeon isn't the whole of what he was after. He makes it pretty clear several times in Zeta that he wants mankind to all evolve into newtypes and stop ruining earth's environment. The feds never really changed anything though or made strides in that direction - so Char went for more extreme methods, hence CCA happens. What you are saying is true in part - but Char always has several sets of motivations going on at once. Usually they clash with one another, and he gets ruined because of them.

>But to say he only wants to have fun, and doesn't have a shred of belief in what he's doing. I'd need more proof of that.

He gave the psychoframe tech to Amuro. And he said that if he wanted to cement a clear win, he would have never done that. Thats really all the proof you need. He himself didn't take the whole thing seriously.

don't they have a very high mortality rate?

>I'll save the earth's environment from being ruined by humans by ruining the earth's environment

Yes extremely high.
And the one who survives becomes a child prostitute. Then when she gets rescued she goes back to being a psycho solider, Marida Cruz is the best and saddest part of Unicorn.

That's why I wish you fags who like Puru would stop worshiping that faggot bastard-nobility loser Glemy, he just clones out cute girls to be his cannon fodder.

Didn't Judeau keep a Puru for himself?

>Mineva Lao Zabi
>Eating anything without meat

He explicitly says that his method will just "put earth to sleep" for a while, but that it will be able to regenerate itself from the blow in time. The idea is that he can do short term damage to earth - get all the humans off - and then it can recover itself in time. Where if humans stay on it indefinitely they will ruin it to the point where it won't be able to repair itself.

Man, it's super hard to tell between the guy trying to drop a giant rock onto earth that would turbo fuck everyone on that planet and in space and the dude attempting to stop him.

I could see Char doing something like that, after all he was always a Soldier first.

I honestly blame Amuro and the military a little, for not fighting the corrupt federation.

>He explicitly says that his method will just "put earth to sleep" for a while, but that it will be able to regenerate itself from the blow in time

Yeah, like 400 years worth of time. His argument was purely academic, entirely hinging on killing billions and starving many more for the sake of... potential hundreds of NTs? Thousands? His plan still required time for natural evolution to work.

Except it wouldn't be a short term damage, look at how fucking big the asteroid actually was and now look into the fact that it was being accelerated using nuclear propulsion AND had a shitload of nukes filling its insides, just the asteroid hitting any continent would wipe out life life in there, it would at the best case scenario leave only microbiological life there and then you count in the nukes that would leave a radioactive fallout that would spread to the whole globe thanks on the asteroid.

He was going to make the earth a barren wasteland devoid of all life

>I honestly blame Amuro and the military a little, for not fighting the corrupt federation.
And how could they do that with a new Zeon revolt every other week? They either devote their resources to puring the corruption on never seen before scale or they stop the space nutjobs with their doomsday plans

>tfw it's too expensive to leave Earth
>tfw it's too expensive to live in Earth

I was wrong. After i wrote that post i remembered what happened when the military tried to take over.

Zeon is to blame too.

>Londo Bell is the elite counter terrorism unit tasked with saving the Earth from certain doom
>its funded on a shoestring budget with a barebones space fleet

I don't care what anyone else, that situation was worse than the Kobiyashi Maru and Bright still pulled through.

>Amuro & Bright
>right
Just because it rhymes doesn't mean it's right. Faggot.

Char understands that forcing the hand of fate is necessary if humanity must evolve further.

>70-80 years later
>Char's grandson desperately saves all human life on Earth from mass psionic genocide by NT crusader empire

Nah, theoretical evolution failed, time to save humanity.

>Nu Gundam
>Canon
There's your mistake.

No one really, Char is an idiot who believes that dropping an asteroid will solve all the problems of the world while not noticing that if he renders Earth useless humanity will become extinct, (this is all considering that the space colonies weren't really supported by the EF, that's why the people from Earth are the elite, they simply have more resources) and Amuro is a lazy faggot that does nothing to help the cause, he think that waiting will solve all problems.

>and starving many more
Earth is the one that takes, Sides are self sufficient.

Amuro, because everyone that fucks everything are spacenoids.

It seems that space autism makes chicks wet.

>Sides are self sufficient

Until whats left of humanity moves into the Sides. Congratulations, you just created a population crises on all the space colonies!

I would think that it would be more like 4000-40 000, or even more. The idea that there is something wrong with sacrificing billions for a few thousand newtypes is something he would probably disagree with. I don't think there was ever any indication of Char being an egalitarian or a utilitarian who thinks that the more people are benefited the better and the more hurt the worse.

Anything less than a hundred million years is pretty " short term" in geological time. I don't think that it would too far of a stretch to assume that the earth could recover from that eventually. I personally think you are right, that it would be too big a risk to take, but I can see how an unhinged revolutionary might think otherwise. It does'nt seem too different from the kind of reasoning that early 20th century communists often engaged in.

But yeah, was his plan good? No. Did he genuinely believe in it? - yeah probably, he makes it pretty clear that he is trying to satisfy his rematch boner with Amuro and complete his long term political goals at the same time. I'm just pushing back against the idea that his plan he no reasoning behind it( and hence that it was just a ruse to get Amuro out), or that it is completely absurd that someone might buy into it.

I wouldn't put it past Char to just reject any earthnoids who attempted to settle.

There shouldn't be any question that Char is in the wrong - Gundam is all about how revolutionary ideas about radically reconstructing man or evolving into some sort of "ubermensch" that is above traditional humanity leads to countless suffering for a goal that is never reached. It's one of the most explicitly conservative and anti-revolutionary messages possible.

At least Char had ambition, Amuro was just caught in the moment.

> It's one of the most explicitly conservative and anti-revolutionary messages possible.

Not really. We see a lot of anti-nationalist and anti-militarist messages in Gundam as well. Tomino is more or less against any sort of strict ideology, especially when that ideology is used to justify violence. To put him in the period he was writing in, Japan at that time had risen out of a self-destructive nationalist movement and was getting rocked by Communist terrorism targeting civilians, so he was probably writing in reaction to that.

If anything his dislike of political ideology and anti-war sentiment combined with his fondness for agrarian living and traditional views on family make him feel like some out of place 19th century anarchist rather than a traditional conservative.

Char did nothing wrong. The federation sold him the asteroid he was going to drop on them

Char was right. He was going to wipe out the U.C equivalent of baby boomers which is a good deed

Earth was a shithole. The feds sold Axis to Char the guy who wanted to drop shit on Earth to pay for their welfare program

Char is basically a modern day leftist. An idealist who becomes disillusioned by the lack of progress so he resorts to violence in order to further his goals. Add in a little bit of some personal psychological problems and you've basically got the same sort of person.

Anarchists and traditional conservatives aren't always on opposite sides of the political spectrum,like when Georges Sorel worked with Charles Muarras and the Action Francoise against the French Republic. Traditional conservatism isn't really nationalistic or inherently militaristic either, since nationalism came as a product of the French Revolution against the old French agrarian society, which did'nt take the state to be something founded on the national will, unlike democracies, fascist states, and socialist states. Excessive militarism and nationalism are more third position/fascist type ideas than traditional conservative ones. It's only been in recent years that people have come to see third position/fascist ideologies as more "right" than "left" - and that is largely due to far left ideologues in North America trying to change the conversation from how they can support humanism and brutal communist regimes at the same time by accusing conservatives of being fascists.

Tomino probably does'nt have an ideology - but he definitely seems to be against violent revolution for the sake of some idealized society where humans have become perfected. And we know from Brain Powerd that he is anti-feminist, and from Mask in G-Reco that he is against SJW agitation and people who use an ideology of their being part of an oppressed group to justify violence against others. I don't really see any evidence of Tomino being against having governments in general though - he just does'nt want hyper active state power and aggression causing ruin for people, which fits in with the traditional conservative principle of local governance and decentralization, over having an omnipresent state taking care of ( and thus control) society at every turn.

I agree.

That's a weird way of putting it. It doesn't make him "like a modern day leftist" it makes him like a lot of violent idealists.
>Hitler is basically a modern day leftist. An idealist who becomes disillusioned by the lack of progress so he resorts to violence in order to further his goals. Add in a little bit of some personal psychological problems and you've basically got the same sort of person.
I mean, you could say that about a lot of people too. Napoleon, Peter the great, Robespierre, Oliver Cromwell. Leftists don't have a monopoly on violent idealism.

How's double zeta?

After zeta and victory i'm feeling kinda done with the forced grit.

Oh please. If anything, leftism is less violent in the Western world now that its ever been. A few decades ago we had leftists marching with automatic weapons and committing acts of terrorism in the United States. Now they're blogging and not standing when the national anthem is played, forms of protest which still endorse the current status quo.

Later neo-Zeon movements are more like the radical communist groups in the third world during the Cold War that kept on clinging to their ideology despite never winning rather than anything we have today.

silly as fuck for the first 25 episodes then it becomes a real series

9/10

Antifa is active and has mainstream support, and assault random people with bike locks for not being willing to give up on free speech. Leftist violence was down maybe ten years ago, but it is rapidly coming back due to the mainstream media and deep state loosing the old stranglehold they had on society and needing foot soldiers to maintain the status quo.

I agree about the Neo-Zeon point though, that seems right on point. The Africa arc in ZZ even had some colonial conflict under tones to it.

Sakaki-kun was right

Concepts of "traditional conservatism" are a false talking point, since the days where the left was defined by nationalist romanticism and anti-monarchism while conservatives were those in opposition to that are long past. conservatism is defined relative to the current status quo. In a world where most nation states are liberal democracies, liberalism is conservatism. That being said, the association between militarism and conservative regimes has existed from before the rise of fascism, from the failure of the Springtime of Nations in Central and Eastern Europe, with Prussia being the archetypal conservative miltarist state.

Most of this isn't really relevant since Tomino is writing in response to Japanese political and social trends of the 1960s and 1970s rather than European ones. Zeon is most often associated with Nazi Germany, but clearly has roots in Imperial Japan, especially with its anti-colonial rhetoric that turns out to be completely hollow. At the same time, Neo-Zeon movements seem more like the radical communists in Japan during that time, and in a similar manner, the reaction of the Federation officials to buy them off to avoid political scandal is basically the same of the Japanese government. While Tomino is mostly focusing on human stories, he definitely isn't afraid to show his opinion on Japanese politics. G-Reco especially was a very thinly veiled criticism of current attempts to revist the Japanese constitution, with the leadership of the pro-miltarization Capital Army being shown as outright evil and incompetent. While I agree that Mask's story does criticize being a victim as a justification for oppression, viewing Mask as a mirror for SJWs is basically forcing an interpretation based on circumstances that just aren't there in Japan.

Char is a fucking faggot

Except rightist generally don't push for progressive or environmentalist ideas like Char. The right is more conservative and appeals to tradition. Char's ideology line up more with the left and his methods are basically the radical left.

Please don't apply retarded American politics to everything.

It's actually the opposite. I'm applying Gundam to American politics.

>flatchested twintails puru

I take 3, please

Rightists have actually co-oped progressive ideas before (Bismarck and the welfare state) and have supported environmentalism as well.

It doesn't really make much difference since Char doesn't have any actual ideology except avoiding responsibility for his actions and placating his own ego. All of Char's populist talk is mostly just a self-serving smokescreen.

Char was a lunatic who was using Neo Zeon to get back at Amuro, but the following series' show us that he was right, the humanity never matured, the Earth never stopped being the reason for the animosity, the following wars caused humans to go nearly extinct and reverted the civilization back to the XIXth century.

It's a very rare edition, I'm afraid it's sold out.

>Char doesn't have any actual ideology
I disagree. I think Spacenoid self-determination plus newtype transhumanism along with Earth preservation form the foundation of his ideology. Whether or not he actually believes that stuff or is acting out his Oedipal rage against Amuro is a different question. But it's exactly because of that that I find Char a compelling character and CCA and actually great movie.

Which series is this? Who even had a child with Char?

I would like to see how Ark Performance would adapt CCA. Currently in Johnny Ridden Char is quite level headed but still a man child showing no contradictions to his canon self, but this is due to the story in between where he's in a build up stage and you can see he's already itching to play with his new robot toys.

I wonder how they would portray him once he goes full bonkers. It's great seeing Holst trying to rein him in and using alternatives instead of the insane nut job scheme of crashing a giant asteroid onto earth, and it's also great that at this point Char is still willing to try said alternatives meaning he hasn't jumped the shark completely yet.

>He got twisted up so bad during whatever the fuck he was doing in ZZ
They need an MGSV: Char Edition.

>Guy who is so egomaniac he's willing to gamble the lives of everyone on Earth on his idealistic view
vs
>Guy who are willing to end his own life to stop a maniac from pulling his planet killing plan in motion

Gee I don't know.
>Corrupt Federation
They maybe corrupt but they're not the one who kill billions of people with giant cylindrical structure, extinction level asteroid, man killing robot-bugs, fuckhueg cannon that can snipe from here to Jupiter or a mind raping machine that can mind rape everyone on Earth. If anything when the time is dire, the feds willing to die in a glorious last stand than surrendering like filthy spacenoids do.

Victory. There's an old fan theory that Uso is Char's descendant because one of his parents shares Nanai's surname

>They maybe corrupt but they're not the one who kill billions of people with giant cylindrical structure, extinction level asteroid, man killing robot-bugs, fuckhueg cannon that can snipe from here to Jupiter or a mind raping machine that can mind rape everyone on Earth. If anything when the time is dire, the feds willing to die in a glorious last stand than surrendering like filthy spacenoids do.

Nah they just focibly resettled billions of people into space, then militarised all their cities to turn them into human shields.

The federation is a hugely oppressive regeme that literally cares more about rebuilding cities on earth with no one living there than it does about making new colonies so they can move people out of the ramshackle refugee colony they hastily set up.

Remember no one living on earth legally is fully innocent, they had something that let them get out of the colony settlement laws which forced everyone else to gtfo earth. Which makes people a bit upset.

Damn how do you guys still remember shit from Victory. I remember now that you brought it up but it just doesn't come naturally.

>Char doesn't have any actual ideology

Contolism.

>Nah they just focibly resettled billions of people into space
So when govt ""FORCE"" people to leave the shithole Earth has become from overpopulation and food crisis to a better, clean air colonies is the govt fault?

>then militarised all their cities to turn them into human shields.
You mean from that manga which make every Zeon soldier as honorable as Jesus themselves? Feds don't use colonies as a weapon on their fellow mankind, only zeon do that.

>The federation is a hugely oppressive regeme
>Oppressive
Nigga feds were the most naive and merciful govt there is in any fictional media, most sane govt would've genocide every spacenoids there is and just drop the colonies on Mars just because the atrocities Zeon has caused

>that literally cares more about rebuilding cities on earth
Nope, By most accounts the Feds spend ungodly amount of its funds on weapon research and development because of the shit Zeon threw at them during OYW, and after all said and done, the Feds still build new colonies for spacenoids as shown in F91

>the ramshackle refugee colony they hastily set up
Blame Zeon when zeon decided to destroy an entire side with Nukes because muh spacenoid freedom. Sweetwater was a refugee camp from OYW, Gryps and Neo Zeon wars.

Like I said, Feds are corrupt but oppressive? Nope. if anything, the ""oppressiveness"" of the federation mainly came from Zeon when they decided to fuck Earth up and kill 1/3 of humanities in a week.

>Damn how do you guys still remember shit from Victory
Because Victory is one of the best gundam series out there. That scene when desperate federation soldier still fighting on with decade old tech and manage to go toe to toe with a superior technology army

So... you don't actually watch gundam? because everything you say in your entire post contradicts the shows.

Tomino fucking outright says multiple times "THE FEDERATION ARE ASSHOLES" and still you guys somehow don't accept it. The only groups in Gundam that are "without sin" so to speak are AEUG and Deikun's Zeon. Everyone else is an asshole of some degree.

>So when govt ""FORCE"" people to leave the shithole Earth has become from overpopulation and food crisis to a better, clean air colonies is the govt fault?

>Yes? they were literally forced migrations. And no, the colonies are not super better than the Earth. This is your own headcanon. Earth Elite is a thing, no matter how much your headcanon disagrees.

>Feds don't use colonies as a weapon on their fellow mankind

We literally saw weapons on colonies and military bases on them.

>Sweetwater was a refugee camp from OYW, Gryps and Neo Zeon wars.

And they, in over a decade, never bothered to do anything with it, that's pure negligence like they constantly show towards the colonies, who are the donors to Earth, they literally support Earth and get fuck all in return.

>Nope

Yes.

>The faction of people living on Earth, or Earthmen, were investing huge sums in rebuilding old cities in the name of terrestrial reconstruction. This merely meant that humanity was once again polluting the surface with earthworks.

oops, accidentally quoted a couple things I didn't mean to, oh well.

Also I'm not even fucking addressing your "they should genocide all colonies" considering 1. that would kill them economically and 2. no, that's not sane, that's abject insanity.

Was newtype code word for autism?

Nah, codeword for enlightenment. The newtype concept is deeply rooted in Buddhist and Hindu spirituality.

It started out not being anime then it became anime when the opening changed.