Villains

Can we agree on this, Sup Forums?

>Can we agree on this
I doubt it.
Why is Kyubey on a different level from the antispirals? Aren't they basically the same thing?
>Hisoka
>motives are a mystery
Your chard is dumb and you should feel bad.

No. Villains with motives are objectively the worst.

>chard
I should really close this thread and pretend this dumb typo has nothing to do with me.

list is pretty much backwards.

There are no such things as villains with better motives then the heroes and if you believe it then you are either an idiot, a sociopath or both..

how is Anti-spiral any different than Kyubei? Both are trying to prevent the possible destruction of the universe in the very distant future. The Anti-spiral are actually not even sure if Spiral power will destory everything, they're just not taking the risk.

Griffith should be in the God tier

What about where the heroes act purely on their emotions but are 'proved right' by plot armour?

The Antispiral does this for humans, Kyubei does it for his race.

That's two very weird assumptions.

Antispiral are humans who understood humans would destroy the universe (they were wrong in the end but only because people like Simon stepped up and proved themselves to be above that)
Kyubei wants to fill their own quota and fuck off after the Earth is destroyed.

But Griffith is High Tier. Also, Hisoka is shit tier.

>Antispiral are humans
No.

I'd switch the rankings of the "MEH" and "MID"

Exactly. You can have antagonists with a better motive but certainly not villains.

Yes. That's literally the point. Antispirals are Spiral beings who sealed their own evolution and prevented everyone else's from happening to prevent Spiral Nemesis.

>Antispirals are Spiral beings
Not humans.
>who sealed their own evolution
In essence becoming something else entirely.
They are as human as kyubey is.

Kyubey isn't an active antagonist. It's a passive antagonist. If Kyubey were to transform into a magical girl killing/eating monster, he might be more.

>judging a villain entirely on their motive.
No this list is retarded. Anybody in Elder God tier wouldn't even be classified as a villain anymore.

It doesn't matter what's in their bodies. The point is that they didn't do it for their own interests. If they were self-centered like Kyubey is they'd have kept evolving and done whatever they wanted with their Spiral powers. What they did was much harder. Lordgenome had to do the same and it broke him.

I'm not sure what your point is.

>Truck-kun
>Not Elder God tier
Disappointing.

Ichijou was a sadistic fuck who wanted to be better than everyone. What version of Kaiji did you read?

One dimensionally evil villains are great. There's a reason they've been the mainstay in fiction for hundreds of years: they work, and stories like that resonate with people.

The idea that ambiguous villains are automatically better is a bias coming from postmodernism's cultural masochism and fetishism of uncertainty.

Agreed, he should be somewhere between High and Mid tier. Probably closer to High though.

>It doesn't matter what's in their bodies.
Your entire being is defined by evolution. Your sex drive, your survival instinct, your drive to improve yourself, every single emotion you will ever have, is based on that fact.
If you get rid of that, you are no longer human.
>If they were self-centered like Kyubey is they'd have kept evolving
That's complete bollocks. Kyubey, being self-centered as he is, does not want the universe to end. Think about it.

Since when was Yanda a villain? He is clearly the hero Yotsuba needs.

Didn't we have this thread like a week ago? What matters is the quality of the author and his writing talent not the motivation.

>Griffith
>High tier

Alright, he sacrificed the band of the hawk because his life was completely ruined, and it was his chance at rebirth, sure, fine, some people would do it.
But then he just goes and rapes his friend's girl while he forcefully watches before letting them die to the demons. As a revenge for having surpassed him and having left him alone. He wants power and will not tolerate anyone being over him in any way.
The dude wants power, he wanted a kingdom because that's what he could obtain as a human, however, now that he's a god and has seen god, who knows what he'll be trying to do with Falconia to rise above all? Sacrifice it for another bigger, meaner eclipse?

Shit tier

>Your entire being is defined by evolution. Your sex drive, your survival instinct, your drive to improve yourself, every single emotion you will ever have, is based on that fact.
Irrelevant. We're discussing morals, not whether or not your body stimulates your conscience the way a human body would.

>That's complete bollocks. Kyubey, being self-centered as he is, does not want the universe to end. Think about it.
Entropy is bullshit. Simon sensed the Spiral Nemesis and it almost made him change his mind. The intro in episode 1 is pretty much what if Spiral Nemesis happened. It's a legit threat.
Humans would probably all be dead way before the entropy problem kicked in. Kyubey didn't ask for their opinion because he doesn't give a shit. He wants to fill a quota, even if it means destroying the entire planet.

Anti-spirals are an active force that destroys civilizations with guns/lasers/bombs/etc.

Kyubey is a little animal that grants wishes to girls with little regard to the consequences. Its all up to the girls as they aren't being forced or threatened.

Ozymandias disagree

>We're discussing morals,
No, we're discussing beings, morals being part of those. Their morals aren't human either. That's the entire reason why they had to leave their bodies behind. They would not have been able to control themselves because drives trump reason (or so they reasoned). The heroes are out to prove them wrong. Humans are better than the anti-spirals were.
>Entropy is bullshit.
Nice head-canon. If you're going to write the motivations of the characters yourself, I don't see a point in arguing with you.

>Kyubey didn't ask for their opinion
Just like the anti-spirals didn't ask for cooperation. Number of apes exceeded permitted number. Annihilation sequence initiated.

You are full of shit.

The Antispirals were trying to prevent the destruction of the Universe, including all sentient races. They were limiting sentient races for their own good. You can argue that they could take a better approach, but they couldn't be sure that every species would do the same sacrifice than they did sealing their spiral power. It would only take one asshole from some spiral species to tear down the Universe for everybody else. You could argue than their motives were better than the heroes at least at the beggining, and considering that Simon gave away his spiral power in the end, it shows that he came to understand their point even after defeating them.

ozymandias it's a antagonist, but seriously it's impossible to his actions be evil, his actions are heroics.

That means they are not villains.

>You are full of shit.
At least you summed up what my answer would have been.

It's almost funny how far you are up your own ass.

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I think it goes back and forth. Right now, because of postmodernism as you say, ambiguous villains are on the rise. In the future, as people gets tired of authors justifying genocidal maniacs with cheap freudian excuses, we will see a rise of one dimensional villains again.

An one dimensional villain can be fun, or can be boring because it's obvious the author is projecting his own hate and fear on that character (even in that case it could be good, Lovecraft made a monster out of a gypsy vendor he hated and it's great). An ambiguous villain can be a complex character, or can just be a pathethic attempt from an author to fetishize his own dark fantasies.

All the dumb heroes that just do what they do because "It's right" should tell you otherwise.
You could have a perfect plan to improve humanity at the expense of a small minority that will be BTFO for the sake of all and then comes some goody two shoes retard saying "No way fag", the plots bends to make him right all along and now you're the villain.
Then they end up making the villain dumber and eviler because they can't write for shit and have to make the hero being right all along.

Anime, out of all media, is especially guilty of this.

I don't agree with this mindset that the quality of the villian is based on the intention or motives. It can surely help, but that is not what makes them stand out overall.
What makes them stand out is HOW their specific attitude, motives or actions are portrayed.
I'm not a HxH fag, I don't even think its as big of a deal as people make it out to be, but Hisoka is not a very loved villains because of his motivations (which are pretty simple and shallow) but rather how he approaches them. His really maniac and psychopath personality (and somewhat perverted at times) really goes well with his simple and shallow motivations, because he himself is portrayed as an overall unstable guy with great fighting capabilities through the series.

To put another example, L (which is not really a villain, but rather an antagonist) is not really liked because of his motivation to stop Kira and save people and shit, he's liked because he is capable of outsmarting Light and the ability to think very critically and analytically about everything.
What makes a villain appealing is not his or her motivations but rather how the villain approaches it.

They are, if you're from the race they're trying to erradicate.

If the two planes had been shot down before they had crashed into the WTC towers that would not have been an act of evil.
Yes, there would have been innocent victims and it's totally unfair, but those victims would have died anyway. Better to sacrifice a few who are destined to die regardless of your choice, than to allow everybody to die.

If you're from that small minority that would be BTFO, then the villains would be villains from your point of view. If the villain needs to make, say, an entire race dissappear, for the sake of the world, he's either not smart enough to make a good plan or too psycho to put himself on another person's shoes just enough to understand that no one wants to die.

It's not the same situation. If you're in a plane that's going to be crashed against a building, you would die anyway, but you would probably gladly sacrifice yourself to see the asshole who put you in that situation fail. If you're going to be annihilated for what you are, your own nature, without chance to argue your case and without knowledge of your sin, then the other party is going to look pretty villainy for you no matter what.

If you're a cockroach, the exterminator will always be a villain, no matter how many diseases are you transmitting.

Stop it with the anti-cockroach propaganda.

>hisoka
>insane
Are you fucking retarded?

Where does "user who makes a dumb chart to get attention" fall?

Ozymandias may be the smartest guy on earth, but as Manhattan said, even he knows that one day he will be gone, he would have killed hundreds of thousands for a peace that was temporary because it's in humanity's essence to end up fighting.
In the long run, he would have had the highest kill count in history for a peace that only benefitted men lucky enough to live in his lifetime and to not have been nuked to hell.

Say whatever you want, Rorsarch was right, stood and died until for what he thought was the right thing, and the rest of the Watchmen were a bunch of suckers. The author and his opinion can suck a dick

Key word: "People"
Plebs love one dimensional evil because understandable villains make their heads hurt.

He's not a villian, he's the hero we need.

>Villains with motives are objectively the worst.
Explain

If they had no motives, they wouldn't be doing bad stuff.

Perhaps if cockroaches were cute they wouldn't have people trying to exterminate them. This is just natural selection at work. Being cute beats being able to survive off the glue from a book's binding.

Could I have an infestation please? I just hope she doesn't scurry away when I try to pet her.

>Squealer

Belongs in the jobber tier.

>Truck-kun
>A villain
Erroneous.

Aizen was the best thing about Bleach

Squealer doesn't even belong on the list because he isn't even a villan.

i see what you did there

Quote somebody?

t. Brainlet

Villains without motives are usually seen in media that is made for 12- children. This post says a lot about you.

There are millions of stories out there from many authors representing many points of the views, if I write one and someone agrees the villain has a good motive villain he's automatically a sociopath? You're the idiot

That's a one off situation and is in response to immediate danger. Most of these plots tend to be from calculating individuals who with all the time and intelligence in the world ultimately decide to kill a bunch of people to solve a problem.

>Eldest God Tier
>There is no real antagonist, everyone is fighting for what they believe in

Antagonist != villain

>Hisoka
>motives are a mystery
Maybe if you don't have any brain cell left working properly.
>insane
Yeah, for such an insane person he thinks very logical and scheme to achieve his goals.

Reminder that Esdeath is Mid Tier and Hisoka merely a Shit Tier. AgK >>> HxH.

>the quality of a villain is determined by how sympathetic his goals are
When will this meme and this meme image fucking die? A character who does evil shit for the sake of his own greed and ambition can be fucking great. It's all about the execution.

It's not like insane people can't scheme

Insanity is when people lose touch with reality, or better yet, its when they lose touch with common sense.

Wanting to be killed by strong people is insanity. Whether or not someone is logical can also be a form of insanity, but its on another axis.

Esdeath is shit tier.

Kumagawa actually fit every description here and he's not a villain just anti-hero.

Hisoka wants to fight powerful people.

There should be a whole category for villians who seek powerful opponents (Toguro, Hisoka, etc.)

>Wanting to be killed by strong people is insanity
I don't know, an exciting death seems the way to go for me and I am pretty sure if I had powers in a world like HxH I would test my powers to their limit and against other powerful people. It just seems too much of a waste not to

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Isoka have plenty of common sense and have a pretty lax lifestyle, he only goes "insane" when he decide to hunt, otherwise he would have died a long time ago by doing shit like Gon.
Your second statement doesn't hold up without the first so meh.

The guy is completely deranged and out of touch with reality and common sense. He wants to pick a fight with anyone that gives him a powerboner. His motives aren't a mystery, but the guy is completely unpredictable, and if you're strong you have an equal chance of him allying with you and also of trying to murder you

Insanity doesn't means unable of any logical thinking

This.

Motive means jackshit when judging the quality of a villain. Only impressionable teens and young adults care about that and cream their pants over anything with gray morality or "muh motives better than the hero". Ultimately what matters is execution and the writing itself.

Anyway I dunno if OP's pic is true of villains but I know that, taking out shit tier, the opposite of it is true for heroes.

>who is Zeke Jaeger
>who is Armin Arlert

>Only impressionable teens and young adults care about that

No, the chart is shit. It's all about presentation and delivery. Griffith and Dio are a million times cooler and more memorable than Anti-Spiral.

Well, yanda and truck-kun did make me smile

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Ozymandias is the dumbest guy on Earth. The autist faggot knows nothing about human nature. A hero my ass.

>he would have killed hundreds of thousands for a peace that was temporary because it's in humanity's essence to end up fighting.

that's always been a shit argument to me, it's like saying why bother to do anything if in the end it doesnt real matter whoaaaoo

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Accurate

These are wrong, how would you categorize them without using OP's retarded motivation chart?

Griffith > Kumagawa > Anti-Spiral > Kyubey

My ranking, from best to worst:
-villains that you find fascinating without sympathizing with them
-villains that you sympathize with
-villains who have a great synergy with the protagonist, challenging his convictions in a convincing manner
-villains who make for a good plot
-villains that teach you a lesson about life

>Villain whose motives are hard to find fault in and arguably better than the hero's

The principal from ferris bueller

Who are anti-spiral and incubators any different? They're both causing people suffering for the sake of preserving the universe.

> Why bother doing anything if it doesn't matter in the end

But that argument is rock-solid if you accept the premise that life pointless. If you're doing anything after that point you're doing it on the basis of feelings and ego. The logical conclusion of believing in a meaningless universe is antinatalism.

Nah that would be stupid and are only said by idioits

Nah. Shit tier is actually best tier.

Go watch slayers and stop being a fucking plebeian.

switch meh tier with shit tier