The bible states that God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. What this means is, the God of the bible has absolute...

The bible states that God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect. What this means is, the God of the bible has absolute, unlimited power, knows absolutely everything there is to know, past present and future, and cannot make unintentional mistakes.

Now, with that in mind, consider this;
>God created the devil. This means that the devil going evil was an intentional design
>God knew that the devil would trick Adam and Eve into eating the forbidden fruit
>God already knows everything every person would ever do, and whether they would end up in heaven or hell

All of this would imply that God set humans up to fail from the beginning, and that evil and suffering were intentional parts of the world.

Do Christians and followers of religions with similar beliefs have any kind of argument or explanation for this, besides excusing the parts they don't accept as metaphors? Is there even any point believing in a religion if you dont take any of it literally and view it all as some metaphorical story of life lessons?

>This means that the devil going evil was an intentional design
You're merely showing your misunderstanding of the Bible. Satan was not created evil, he was actually God's favorite. Satan chose hubris, he became full of pride, he wanted to be like God, and he took a third of the angels with him in his loser assault on God's throne.

The Bible literally explains that God created evil in order to "toughen" the faith of believers, so to speak. To test the faithful. You have to judge yourself worthy of a Good Life.

>Satan was not created Evil

Satan was created by an omnipotent, perfect being. In order for Satan to turn evil, it would have had to have been intentional. Plus, God being omniscient means he knew it would happen.

So what's the point of testing humans if he is omnisceint and already knows every choice that every person in existance has and will ever make?

>he was actually God's favorite
Wrong
Logos (Word) was his 'firstborn', who he created everything else with.
Logos is Jesus
Satan is a title given to the first rebellious angel, his original name is unknown

None of that is a bad thing. It hurts my feefees that I'm not what I want to be is your own problem. Why should God give a shit about your emotions?

Actually that’s from The Torah
nice try Jew

>In order for Satan to turn evil, it would have had to have been intentional.
Yes, it was intentional. All angels and humans have free will and Satan misused this gift and turned to evil. All the other angels who followed suit are the demons. Same way how Adam and Eve intentionally ate from the forbidden tree, well knowing what will happen to them

>None of that is a bad thing

I'm not debating whether it's good or bad. I'm pointing out that it completely contradicts everything else in the Bible since there cannot be such a thing as free will when the fate of every single person is already known predetermined. That would mean God created everything, past present and future, at once, and that makes no sense

>All of this would imply that God set humans up to fail from the beginning, and that evil and suffering were intentional parts of the world.
>Do Christians and followers of religions with similar beliefs have any kind of argument or explanation for this
God imbued his creations with free will. yes He knew what our choices would be before we made them, but we made those choices

"Muh free will"

God is omniscient though. He knows everything that will happen. This implies that free will is an illusion since God would know the choices a being makes before even creating it and, thus, did not truly give it free will but made it exactly as intended.

growth of human character.
its like making a clock from scratch. assuming you are a master clocksmith, you know how it will work when you finish. but you do it anyway, so you can see it work

If he knew our choices before even creating us, that implies that those choices are not free will but the will of God's design. You cannot create something with free will if you already know how it will behave and what choices it will make. That's a contradiction.

>his original name is unknown
is it not Lucifer? the angel of light?

That would imply that we are all just part of one big plaything of a bored deity. Problem is, that contradicts the teachings of the bible.

I'm agnostic, formerly Christian.

God sounds like a dick.

Didn't he have the name star of morning at one point?

Exactly

>If he knew our choices before even creating us, that implies that those choices are not free will but the will of God's design.
not necessarily
>You cannot create something with free will if you already know how it will behave and what choices it will make.
yes you can
>That's a contradiction.
no its not

imagine for a minute that God is not real and free will is a scientific fact. now wwhat if there was a gypsie that could see the future? she knows literally every decision you are going to make, and she knows the outcome of every one of those decisions.
do you still have free will?

i dont know what kind of TV you get in Bongland, but in the US a few years ago there as a show in the Disney Channel called "Thats So Raven." in the show, a girl could see the furure, but she couldnt control it. she would just get a vision of a moment in the future, usually some bad situation. so she and her friends would try everything in their power to avoid this bad situation. however, it was inevitable that their actions actually played a part in making that futuristic vision a reality

can you see the conenction im trying to make?

>God set humans up to fail from the beginning
Nope. Humans choose to fail themselves.
You know the rules, you know the way to heaven and you can freely choose it.
However human nature is evil from its birth and only small part of people can ever go the "right path".

>God already knows everything every person would ever do,
Time doesn't exist to God.
This condition is enough to know everything what happened and what will happen. (Because you can somehow see/have access to every instance of the timeline)

How do you define free will and where in the Bible does it claim that definition exists?

It's called 197 inter-dimensional chess.

>That would imply that we are all just part of one big plaything of a bored deity
more like beloved pets in a terrarium.

He can be a dick when He wants

>You cannot create something with free will if you already know how it will behave and what choices it will make.

What if free will is an emergent property of any sufficiently complex finite system (consider the Universe as a finite system - because we can "count all the particles in it")?

God created rules - everything else is the consequence of those rules in action.

>imagine for a minute that God is not real and free will is a scientific fact. now wwhat if there was a gypsie that could see the future? she knows literally every decision you are going to make, and she knows the outcome of every one of those decisions.
>do you still have free will?

No. If all of my decisions and outcomes are predetermined, then there is no free will. I am merely following my destined path which I cannot change. Being able to see the future would theoretically be impossible unless it was set in stone and unchangeable which, again, means that there is no true free will.


>i dont know what kind of TV you get in Bongland, but in the US a few years ago there as a show in the Disney Channel called "Thats So Raven." in the show, a girl could see the furure, but she couldnt control it. she would just get a vision of a moment in the future, usually some bad situation. so she and her friends would try everything in their power to avoid this bad situation. however, it was inevitable that their actions actually played a part in making that futuristic vision a reality
>can you see the connection im trying to make?

This is not an argument against what I'm saying. In fact, it supports my notion that, in a world where the future is observable, there is no true free will and you cannot change it no matter what you do.

For instance, in a world where the future is predetermined; every person would already be destined for either heaven or hell before they are even born. That means that there is no free will and you cannot change your outcome no matter what you do. You can be under the illusion that you got to where you are by free will, but in reality that 'free will' was already determined by God ahead of time and it was always going to happen.

You cant just place "muh" infront whenever someone says something you dont like.
God did not create humans to be programmed to please him. Omniscient doesnt necessarily mean that he knows the future like some black magician. He knows all and knows what will happen in the future at some point, but free will can have affect on the detail. Other words, what he planned to do, will happen. If humans direct an event in a way he doesnt want to, he can use his power to change factors and trends in order to meet his desired outcome (life hax).
You are confusing all of this with predestinarianism.
If God knew angels and humans would rebel, he wouldnt create them. This would go against his love, mercy and just personality
Gods exercise of his might is not simply unleashed, limitless power but is constantly governed by his purpose and tempered by his mercy

>Time doesn't exist to God
That implies that God created every part of time, from beginning to end, at once, which completely destroys any purpose to anything

The definition of being Omnisceint is that you know everything. Nice try.

You're not getting it, are you?

According to the bible, God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfect.
Omnipotence = Absolute power with no limits
Omnipotence = Absolute knowledge with no limits
Perfection = Cannot make mistakes

*Omniscience = Absolute knowledge wth no limits

>If God knew angels and humans would rebel, he wouldnt create them. This would go against his love, mercy and just personality
No shit, sherlock. That's my entire point.

>in a world where the future is observable, there is no true free will
i disagree

>This is not an argument against what I'm saying.
im not attempting to agrue against you, im trying to support my idea. see, the girl's vision only came to fruition because of the actions she took. she sees the a bad situation in the future, and takes actions to prevent them. but her actions often if not always end up contributing to the fruition of the situation in an unforeseen way. so hypothetically is she took no action, her vision would never transpire.

>im not attempting to agrue against you, im trying to support my idea. see, the girl's vision only came to fruition because of the actions she took. she sees the a bad situation in the future, and takes actions to prevent them. but her actions often if not always end up contributing to the fruition of the situation in an unforeseen way. so hypothetically is she took no action, her vision would never transpire.

You're using a fictional example of a girl with finite abilites as a way of explaining how free will is somehow proven. Your problem there is that God is not finite. God is omniscient, which means that God knows all that will happen before any actions have taken place.

As others have pointed out in this thread, God is outside of time, which would explain being able to view all of it at once, but then implies that God created all of time at once which, once again, completely shatters any possiblity of free will since all of your actionsand decisions that you perceive as free will were all created and decided by God at once.

The name Lucifer only occurs once in the bible and only in certain versions like king james isaiah 14:12 - "how art thou fallen from heaven, O lucifer, son of the morning"

Hebrew translation is "shining one"
Septuagint uses greek word meaning "bringer of dawn", so some translations change the hebrew text to "morning star". The latin Vulgate uses Lucifer (light bearer)
The expression "shining one" or "lucifer" is found in what Isaiah commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a "proverbial saying agajnst the king of babylon". It is part of saying directly against the Babylonian dynasty. Isaiah 14:15 reads that "down to sheol you will be brought"
Sheol =/= hell
Sheol = common grave of mankind
In verse 16, people ask "is this the man that was agitating the earth?"
Therefore, Lucifer refers to a human and not a spirit creature (satan). It is not a name scriptually given to satan, but to the babylonian kings which really reflected the greed and prideful arrogance of Satan

The devil betrayed God’s will by creating the material plane and binding man to it. Ultimately however, the devil will fail to break God’s plan because God represents eternal, transcendent truth. Just like a solar eclipse is capable of blotting out the light of the sun, but only temporarily. On the scale of God’s works, all of the suffering that the devil has wrought is an insignificant blip. Ultimately, God’s plan which has been foreseen for all eternity will be realized - the eventual ascension of all living beings through the higher planes by means of involution until they are reunited with the Godhead.

You cant nit pick a quality of God and call him out for it, without taking into account other characteristics
You can cry, in a similar way, that God isnt merciful as the bible states because he killed these and those people, and punished israelites.
The argument that God is not foreknowing all future events and circumstances in full detail would evidence imperfection on his part is actually an arbitrary view of perfection, in reality. Perfection does not demand such an obsolute all-embracing extension, in as much as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Gods own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to wether anything is perfect.
God chooses to exercise his ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to a certain degreethat pleases him. The question is not what God can foresee but what he sees fit to foresee

>You're using a fictional example of a girl with finite abilites as a way of explaining how free will is somehow proven
no im using a fictional example of a girl with finite abilities to try to explain specific products of quantum mechanics and string theory and the multiverse theory and other very advanced theories that i know admittedly relatively little about. the only way i know to explain them is with this reference
and i never claimed free will is proven, although i believe it is

>God is omniscient, which means that God knows all that will happen before any actions have taken place.
correct

>As others have pointed out in this thread, God is outside of time, which would explain being able to view all of it at once, but then implies that God created all of time at once which, once again, completely shatters any possiblity of free will since all of your actions and decisions that you perceive as free will were all created and decided by God at once.
very interesting point. so we can agree that if an omniscient and omnipotent God existed [lets ignore benevolent for now because its not relevant] He would have to exist outside of our understanding of time and space [lets also temporarily ignore the fact that such a being would be unable to be observed and quantified by humans, much less its motivations and abilities enumerated]
if such a being existed, and was omnipotent, it could have created time in different parts, and not in chronological order, if it so pleased
as a side note, Albert Einstein is quoted as saying "The only reason time exists is so that everything does not happen at once." i find that quote relevant to this discussion.
>shatters any possiblity of free will since all of your actionsand decisions that you perceive as free will were all created and decided by God at once.
not necessarily. are you familiar with the Multiverse Theory?

you're both completely wrong. "Satan" (not a name for a specific being btw but a general title for potentially anyone who opposes you) is not evil and is not a rebel. He (or more rightly, they) is an agent of God who is sent to test people's faith. That's it. There's nothing more to it than that. See the story of Job.

This is why Christianity is really quite fucking stupid because if you don't have a basis in judaism or jewish/greek culture of that time or the time periods where these things happened in general, then you end up misunderstanding just about everything in your beloved bibles.

I see. You have no actual argument so you are trying to discredit my points on the notion that "God isn't actually omniscient, he only has selective view of the future."

See, the problem with that argument is that God is not a part of time. His abilities are not restricted by the laws of the universe. He is outside of it and can view it all as one single entity.

I know you don't want to accept or contemplate the possibility that what you believe is not what you want it to be but sorry, kiddo. If the bible is truth, every single event in time is absolute and unchangeable by anyone or anything other than God himself.

Yes, I'm familiar. In fact, I believe in the multiverse theory.

>Arbitrary number sequence indicating nothing of relevance "AD"
>Still believing in God

ISHYGDDT

But yea I agree with everything else you've said there

Only retards believe in gods nowadays. And even 99% of these retards don't believe seriously. For them, religion is just a superficial accessory of being muh traditionalist.

Agreed. Belief in a higher being and afterlife is just something people cling on to so that they don't have to face the possibility that when they die they are gone.

If you look at scripture this closely you are doing it wrong. It won't hold to this level of logical scrutiny. It was written by bearded men thousands of years ago.

>I believe in the multiverse theory.
as do i.
so let me try and get some thoughts out, i apologize if it doesnt flow very well, im not an academic

so lets say the Multiverse Theory is true. there are infinite universes or "time-lines" that are all distinct from one another. there is a universe where Hillary won, and there is a universe where plants are blue, infinite possibilities. if the claim was made that God exists [an omnipotent and omniscient God], then if must follow that He would be present both within and outside of each universe, like a man sitting at a desk with a book, and each page in the book is a universe.

[i claim that the existence of an omnipotent and omniscient God is not in conflict with the Multiverse Theory]

so lets say for every person on Earth, there exists a universe or "time-line" where every possible outcome from every possible decision they made exists. a universe where you had tea instead of coffee, or a universe where you wore blue instead of red, or a universe where you killed a man with your car instead of swerving in time.

i like to imagine it like a branching line where each addition of a branch it another universe that contains the possibilities that a different universe does not

this kind segues into my point about the Disney show. the girl saw one possible universe when she saw the future. but due to outside forces, she made decisions that led to that possible future coming true. she could have chose not to act on her knowledge of the future, but she believed she could change it. if she chose to stay in bed all day instead, the future would have been different. but this leads to the problem of a time travel paradox

idk man, its possible that free will does not exist. think about it like this; things will happen to us in the future. we do not know what they are, but they are going to happen. and its impossible to know if we are making decisions that we were always going to make.
follow up comment

>we do not know what they are, but they are going to happen. and its impossible to know if we are making decisions that we were always going to make.
as a personal anecdote, i was going to my friends house on New Years this year. he lives about an hour and a half away and i need to take one main road that cuts my state in half. so while im on my way i stop to get a coffee and a protein bar and full up on gas. then a bit later i stop at the last liquor store thats on the way. i went in and bought a case of beer and chatted to the owner about drunk driving. so i get back on the road and come to the scene of a head on collision. i was the second person to get there, long before any cops or medics arrived. this wreck happened probably less than a minute before i got there.

i couldnt stop thinking to myself, what if i decided to get beer at my destination? what if i blew the store owner off and didnt have the conversation about drunk driving. what if i got gas and skipped the coffee and protein bar. there are so many things i did, and if i had not done one of those things, its likely that that drunk driver would have hit and killed me. this is what i meant by "actions we were always going to take."

>See, the problem with that argument is that God is not a part of time. His abilities are not restricted by the laws of the universe. He is outside of it and can view it all as one single entity.
Yes
He is outside it but can change it
Wtf is ur point
The creator of a computer program is not inside the software, just like God is not in our space time and matter continuum. The developer can ammend parts of the code, just like God can fiddle with our universe

>every single event in time is absolute and unchangeable by anyone or anything other than God himself.
every single event prophesied...*

For crying out loud, you believe in the multiverse theory.
How much of a manchild can you be. This was my type of thing when i was 10