Ghibli and the Enviorment

I see the argument here a lot that MIyazaki/Ghibli preach environmentalism too much. But what's wrong with protecting the planet, Sup Forums?

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Nothing. They're just faggots.

Because the fundamentally sound human instinct behind conservationism, that of logically and rationally managing our natural resources for future generations, was replaced in the last generation by the purity spiral of environmentalism that demonizes progress and civilization. Now it essentially acts as a political stick to beat white countries with and extract wealth redistribution to high time preference people who give far less of a shit about conserving nature.

Miyazaki hates people and glorifies nature. He hasn't reconciled man with nature and keeps them forever divorced.

Industrial progress changed a lot between the previous generation and the one before it too bro.

Miyazaki idealizes the pre-meiji relation of the Japanese to nature.
It's pretty clear in his essays.

>Progress
And there's this buzzword again. Most of the so called ''progress'' of today consists in the creation of a massive amount of useless shit that no one needs and only serves to lessen ourselves.
Destroying all green life to build countless ugly tower buildings and industries that sell nothing but vapid products is just one of the many steps that humanity took, and is taking, to the death of community, the destruction of beauty and the loss of the individual.

Mind you, the environmentalism that Miyazaki and Ghibli advocates is completely different from the fake virtue signaling shit that takes place on the media.

Ghibli's environmentalism isn't even half as preachy/sanctimonious as western eco stories are. Pom Poko is actually quite even-handed in admitting that humans have a right to using the environment to benefit society, and the tone of the movie was overall fairly comedic and cheeky. Compare that to something like Fern Gully.

>human instinct behind conservationism
Does that exist, in regards to the environment?
>that of logically and rationally managing our natural resources for future generations,
I don't think that's ever happened.
> that demonizes progress and civilization
No, just wastefulness and wanton destruction.

>overall fairly comedic and cheeky.
this shit was sad as hell though

It has a lot of sympathy for people having to live in the cities too though. "You have to transform to survive in Tokyo" like they say. It doesn't seem like Takahata thinks it's a natural way of living.

What people have to understand about Miyazaki, is that his generation, and the generation before his, was more sensitive and accurate when portraying feelings and messages in fiction compared to today's generation.
So even when for example, Miyazaki advocates for garbage like feminism on his works, it generally(emphasis on generally)comes down as much more genuine than the filth that today's left constantly shits.

Everything, are you some fucking elf? Nothing good will ever come to us from clinging to this planet.

Miyazaki is like king Oedipus shaking his fist at mankind. And like Oedipus, his followers will vehemently defend him. Knowing well that whatever he says, the opposite is true.

But it certainly isn't. Living in gigantic metropolises is a very new thing for humanity, and even in this short time period we can already see many evidences that living in such places is unnatural and quite unhealthy in the long run.

If I may just interject, I would appreciate it if people differentiated between lefties (" the wealth distribution is unfair") and liberals ("we should tear down all social barriers and each become a special snowflake"). As a leftwing conservative, I don't like being associated with feminists.

I would apply that to Japan in general, insomuch as they don't feel the obligation that westerners (particularly anglophones) feel to cram hackneyed political messages into their media. Even when an anime/manga has a clear message I never feel like the creators are trying to facefuck it down my throat like so much of the trash that comes from Hollywood or Marvel today.

I don't see that in any Ghibli related film though.

The beautiful ones

The solution is building larger, arcological buildings that are further apart. Kind of like Tokyo-3. You get more open space for the same amount of families and land area.
The problem is you can't do this to an existing city block. It all has to go tumbling down before you can go the nerv route.

meant for

We'd first need fusion reactors before we can actually power such buildings.

Today's left engulfed liberalism to use it as a weaponized propaganda for its cause. Very few people are actually economical leftists these days, as there's countless examples to prove that free market triumphs over interventionism in economic terms, and to also prove that the distribution of wealth will be more balanced on a country that adopts free market.
So here's the thing, left and liberals don't fight over the economical spectrum anymore, but they basically agree on almost everything regarding ideology. Liberals defend feminism, abortion, equal rights, liberation of drugs and so on, which are basically all the platforms that leftists advocate for as well, because modern liberals believe in personal freedom above all else.

So in the end, they fight against what today's leftists don't defend, and defend what leftists advocate.

>Today's left engulfed liberalism to use it as a weaponized propaganda for its cause.
I actually have a suspicion it's the opposite, that the leftist ideology was watered down with all this bullshit so that people could discard the leftist stuff without making anyone angry.
>there's countless examples to prove that free market triumphs over interventionism in economic terms, and to also prove that the distribution of wealth will be more balanced on a country that adopts free market.
Are there?
From what I hear, all those free trade agreements are ruining the middle class. People are going into poverty left and right.

This post is pure ideology and only serves to confuse people further.

Don't take my word for it, search for any list of the countries which are considered to be the most economic free in the world, check their distribution of wealth, and then compare It with countries with strong interventionist policies.
There's nothing ideological about what I said at all. I was literally just making an observation, and didn't attack either side of the spectrum.

Enviromentalism is narcissistic. It relies on the belief that the World revolves around us, and we are the cause of all of its problems. That we are a problem, in fact.

But the fact is that we barely affect anything. 99% of all life was extinct before we got here, and that statistic will continue long after we're extinct ourselves.

>Don't take my word for it, search for any list of the countries which are considered to be the most economic free in the world, check their distribution of wealth, and then compare It with countries with strong interventionist policies.
>ignoring history of those nations
Typically the governments become more involved because the people were poorer. It was the poorest countries in the world that took on socialism, while the USA came out of WW2 as the richest nation by default (being the only one that hadn't been ruined). Any such comparison is automatically flawed.
But why isn't the USA wealthy anymore?

Obsessed.

Unfortunately people gobble up feel good ecofascist nonsense like flies slurping up shit. Every argument of theirs is the same tired nonsense filled with appeals to some inherently, vaguely defined superior quality of "natural life". I also frequently hear arguments about how 'horrible and ugly' metropolises are, which confirms that all ecofascists are invalids who can't comprehend the beauty of science, mathematics, architecture, and shaping reality itself with human genuity. We wouldn't have gone into space without the industrial revolution.

If you want your natural life so much, go live in Africa and die at the age of 30 to a preventable illness. Except nobody actually does this, because they're all hypocrites in the first place who took up the mantle of ecofasicsm as a tool to bolster their egos above others.

>beauty of science,
Yeah i don't really buy that since the counter argument relies on science denialism.

This
The fact that "global warming" has been played up to be such a huge problem (when mankind has very little impact on global temperatures) is sickening

They're not too preachy so they don't come off politically. I don't mind it. Nausicaa is a lot bigger than environmentalism, especially the manga

I'm not a civil eng but aero so I may be wrong, but power consumption actually goes down when you have a bigger system with less exterior walls and presumably more computer control.
There's no technical barrier to making skyscrapers or arcologies to house 10,000 or more people per unit. That are actually comfortable and livable and not just boxes with beds in them.
Two possible issues.
First, the real estate market is one of the biggest scams in the world. Worse than the medical mafia. If everyone can afford good housing, that has low expenses and can last for several generations, you haven't solved anyone's housing problem. What you've really done is you've started a crisis and a world war.
Second, you can only do this if the old block is completely destroyed, or if you are colonizing a desert.

>who can't comprehend the beauty of science
The most beautiful think I can think of is fire, maybe we should cover the world in it.

I get annoyed when they seriously claim that global warming is happening, and is manmade.

Because their entire movement is based off of denying the obvious and undeniable improvements that science and industrialization has brought us. Every single one of them fantasizes about living a wonderful "natural" life where they live as elites and never have to worry about the downsides of such a lifestyle, when in reality they would statistically be illiterate serfs who get raped by roaming bandits or imperialists.

Again, you want humanity in their natural state? Look at Africa. It's a fucking shithole. The only value our species has is the ability to deny nature and shape reality with our own two hands, something no other animal is capable of doing.

It becomes really obvious when you do some digging into their movement's history.

Most of their arguments come from Thomas Malthus back in 1798, who believed that the human population could never feed itself if it went over 1 billion.

They just keep moving the fucking goalposts, but it's still the exact same argument.

Edgy child with the mind of a literal monkey. The only thing you can think of is fire. Ook ook.

Go look at Russian and German rockets, the space programs, tank production, automated car assembly factories, old literature (made with technology during the industrial revolution and renaissance).

That's beauty, and it's something a subhuman like you could never comprehend.

It's not 'global warming' anymore, it's 'climate change'.

Because that way they don't have to provide any evidence beyond the fact the climate changes over time.

t.Gendo

>die at the age of 30 to a preventable illness.
We got a huge problem around here with people who are into new age or consipracy theories not vaccinating their children. To the point where not only their child is in danger, but also everyone else's who's in contact with it.

>I see the argument here a lot that MIyazaki/Ghibli preach environmentalism too much.
I used to think that until I watched Mononoke. He addressed both sides in a neutral light very well.

You are following the wrong line of thought. Socialism was never made to ''help'' people. Yes, it happened on countries which were on deep shit at the time, but that's because socialism is just a very idealized idea, that's easy to sell to people who are in need. The reason socialism actually took place was because it gives immense power to the state over the population.

>Any such comparison is automatically flawed.
But why isn't the USA wealthy anymore?
How so? Compare countries like Hong Kong for example, which was in total deep shit some decades ago, but adopted a policy of almost no economical intervention, and in a short amount of time managed to literally rebuild itself to become one of the richest cities(or countries if you prefer)in the world, while also having the average citizen having a better condition of life than on any populist country or socialist shithole, to any country on South America for, which did the exact opposite, betting on interventionism and immense taxes, and are now on their worst economic crises in decades. Chile has the best economical situation of any South American country, and it was actually the one who adopted the opposite position.

I could give you more examples, but like I said, just check the lists and it will become self evident.

Please tell me you're shitposting.

The evidence usually gets carried away by the old cold river, together with the rest of the house.

But anti-vaccers believe that there are toxic chemicals in medicine, which is a form of enviromentalism.

Americans don't give a fuck about environment.

There is quite litterally no natural strain of flu that you can concieve of right now that the flu vaccine actually protects you from.
The infection rate is the same.
Secondly, most vaccines have fucking mercury and aluminum in them and have been shown to cause autism and a whole host of learning and developmental problems.
This isn't a fucking wild conspiracy theory.
These are 100% pure facts.
Best part?
The swine and bird flu show evidence of both being manmade.

Have fun with that.

He's right though. Study more on the matter instead of only listening to the established media.

>literal monkey
>Subhuman
The best way to win an argument is to resort to ad hominem.

Why would somebody lie on the internet?

>You are following the wrong line of thought.
But I wasn't arguing about the why. That has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Don't try to sidestep the argument.
>Hong Kong for example,
Hong Kong flourishes because it functions as the gate of China. Of course they'd be able to make profits off of those huge amounts of stuff that go through there.
>socialist shithole,
Like Scandinavia.

You failed to explain America.

No one does. The difference is, the Americans don't pretend to give a fuck about it.

People actually believe that.

>graph ends at 1905
epic

Well now we've got too many parents who'd rather have a dead than a potentially retarded child.

When your kid is dead you can just try again. When you've got an autistic fuck, you're stuck with the shitface until the end of your life.
Not that I believe that vaccinations actually cause autism.

There's nothing to believe.
It's true.
All of it.
Every single word.
Oh and by the way, next year all American adults will be required to get the flu shot.
The doctors and nurses will be required to as well. Oddly enough, said doctors and nurses are fighting against this tooth and nail.

The stuff about the flu is just about the only thing I agree with you on.

...

You can ask the government to give your bastard an assistant. Then someone with a degree can spend all day with your kid so it can be smart second-hand.

of course they "had" fucking mercury
organomercury compounds aren't reactive you utter retard. you can look at the mechanisms yourself

fucking dumb amerilard undergrads

...

those organomercury compounds aren't reactive*

before some retard brings up dimethylmercury

Yeah I know.
Look at how much "FUCK THIS CITY" kind of stuff and destroyed city and society porn there is.

They literally hate living in the city and what it's doing to them.

Love how you corrected yourself after you spouted lies. Pathetic shill.

>Scandinavia
>Socialist
Every Scandinavian country enriched with free market on prior decades, and fucked itself over on the 21st century with populist policies. Anyone who gives for example, Sweden, as an example of ''successful'' socialism doesn't know what he's talking about. Firstly, because Sweden basically only begun to shift its economical model a few decades ago, and it's now seeing the consequences of it. Second, because the only thing that most Scandinavian countries have in terms of ''leftist'' policies are high taxes and some social programs. Pretty much every first world country has high taxes these days anyway, so I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about interventionism on the economy and lack of freedom to buy and sell what you want.
>Hong Kong
I'm not only talking about profit. I'm talking about condition of life and distribution of wealth to the average citizen, the location is also a factor, but it really isn't the most important thing if you check the history of the country.
>America
Explain what about America? America pretty much exemplifies what I said. It's falling economically after adopting more social programs, higher taxes and more interventionism. Obama government increased the debt of the country more than the 5 previous presidents combined.

They still have mercury in them you poor misinformed bastard.
By the way speciation.net/News/Toxicity-of-organomercury-compounds-;~/2017/02/15/8287.html

user, america is almost purely capitalist in nature.
The handful of social programs that we have going all exist to prevent people from rioting and to help raise amerca's slave underclass.

The middle class is a fucking memory now. All of the jobs for that particular class were shipped over seas and which jobs they couldn't ship over seas are being filled with slaves from mexico india and china.

>It's falling economically after adopting more social programs,
It was running on a huge military spending which it was only entertaining because it was afraid of falling back into the pre-WW2 crisis. Carter wanted to cut the spending, but he was replaced by Raegan and morning in America.
>blaming Obama for the 08 crisis
You can blame him for continuing with the retarded bail-out. But not the crisis.
You know nothing.

I thought you were making a comparison of today's america with america from decades ago. If that's not the case, America is still a rich country, with a good condition of life, and where the wealth of the average citizen is still higher than on any populist country with heavy interventionism.

My point was that America of the 21st century is more leftist than it ever was before.

>My point was that America of the 21st century is more leftist than it ever was before.
No.
It has more programs to keep the poor alive and calm. That's not leftist. Leftist would be to reduce the wealth discrepancy. And the USA only have these programs because the people are getting poorer. It's an inevitability. If the US economy could provide good jobs (which it can't, because of free trade agreements), then it wouldn't need such huge expenses to feed the poor.

>tfw you learn there is a labor shortage in America because Americans are too fucking lazy to work hard jobs

The flu vaccine protects against the more virulent known strains of the latest years.

What you get every so months is a common cold, not the fucking flu.

>The debt came only from the 08 crisis, even though it literally multiplied time and time again throughout his government
Right. I never blamed him for the crisis, he literally assumed the presidency on 08. I only said that that debt he left the country with was literally unprecedented and unmatched by any other president of the US.

>that debt he left the country with was literally unprecedented and unmatched by any other president of the US.
Of course it was. The American debt has been growing for a long time.
When Trump leaves office, the debt will be larger still. And the same will be true for the president after him.

That's not what I meant. It's not that he just left the country with more debt than he found, that would be ''natural'', the thing is that the debt grew much more under his government than it usually does. Not only that, like I said, even if you combine the percentage of debt growth from all the 5 previous presidents, it would still not reach his numbers.
I don't know what to tell you, user, but social programs are universally agreed to be leftist policies nowadays.

>but social programs are universally agreed to be leftist policies nowadays.
That doesn't change their inevitability as the people grow poorer. You don't enact them when people don't need them.
Bismarck started his insurance program as a rightwing reactionary because to stop support for leftwingers and bring the Germans back into line.
The fact is that the USA are poor and the social programs are just proof of it.

Also, I think we should stop with the Sup Forums. In the beginning it was somewhat related to the topic, but now it went totally off topic.

People have successfully managed fisheries for hundreds of years without exhausting the stock for example. Same with agriculture and forestry in Europe. You realize that one of the first things they abolished in the French Revolution were the game and lumber reserves kept by the nobility? Conservationism was an aristocratic virtue. Environmentalism is pure ressentiment against civilization

>managed fisheries for hundreds of years without exhausting the stock
No longer, as mankind if finally capable of fishing enough to actually empty the waters.
>Same with agriculture and forestry in Europe.
Europe used to be almost exclusively oak trees before those were cut down by settlers a long time ago. The modern European forest is really a rather recent thing.
The Greeks too were famous for cutting down huge amounts of wood.
>Conservationism was an aristocratic virtue.
No, the game and the parks were.

>Believing some idiots on Sup Forums and le based red pilled youtubers over the scientific community of the world
>Complaining about hindering progress
idk why but I expected better from you Sup Forums

I wanted to laugh at them, but then I remembered that I have never in my life actually read a scientific study. If my knowledge is third-hand, like theirs, then I have no right to mock them even if I am right and they are wrong.

Reading medical studies is pretty useless without a medical background even if they make their methods transparent, you can't fact check hundreds of things at once with google.

Climate science is based on models, you can't run large scale experiments so it's inherently not going to be very strong science

Stronger than no science at all, I'd reckon.

user, I really don't get where you are coming from. The US is a rich country and its average citizen has more economical power than on any communist shithole. I don't know in what reality you live, but the US is a privileged place in almost all regards, and this is coming from someone who isn't even american. And It conquered all that good condition of life and economical power through economical freedom, not state intervention. The USA is a example in favor, not against of what I'm advocating for.

I would reply to the rest of your points, but I don't want to go more off topic than I already went. So this will be my last post on the matter

I made this pic with a list of the countries with the most economic freedom in the world. Now, look at it, and tell me if it isn't self evident.

>feel good ecofascist nonsense
Who else /ecofascist/ here?
We must secure our greelands and a future for clean oceans

>And It conquered all that good condition of life and economical power through economical freedom,
No, it got that big through WW2. America was the only industry left standing, and everybody was in debt with them. Even the Russians paid them large sums of money every year, despite the cold war and everything.
If you can't accept this, then you are literally blinding yourself.
>its average citizen has more economical power than on any communist shithole.
More and more people in the USA are reliant on welfare. The US economy has been very slowly going down ever since '45, with a few bigger steps on the way.

That's a fair point, but the literature is out there and easy to find. Just read the abstracts if you're feeling lazy and you're good to go

Models are shitty at predicting the minutiae, ill give you that, but this is a long term, large scale phenomenon which our models are very good at dealing with. This combined with lots of small scale experiments performed by experts in their fields means we can be sure that climate change is happening and man made.

>white countries
found the Sup Forumstard

>And It conquered all that good condition of life and economical power through economical freedom, not state intervention.
USA is one of the most interventionist states in the world, all of its mayor economical developments from the railroad to the internet were federal projects.

>Politics on Sup Forums

>mostly free
>United Arab Emirates
Sorry, what?

It only refers to economic freedom.

>white countires
You fucking ultra nigger. Anyone who cries "muh white oppression! M-mu white genocide!" should be gassed and burned alive like the worthless trash they are.

>USA is one of the most interventionist states in the world
Right, that's why it's literally 17 on that list and 10 on the 2017 index list when it comes to economical freemdom. So interventionist.

>over the scientific community of the world
But user scientific community agree our bigger contribution to climate change are WW2 and livestocks and both are tiny comparing to eruption of one average sized volcano so calling it man made is nothing but we wuz destroyers of planet larp.

You could argue he gets a bit heavy handed every now and then, but people that throw that around as a blanket statement reason to hate Ghibli/Miyazaki are just grasping at straws to justify being contrarian.

citation needed