Honestly Jiren is everything I hate about new DBZ put into one character...

Honestly Jiren is everything I hate about new DBZ put into one character. It's like Toriyama became aware of how negatively the power level bullshit affected the series and instead of fixing it he instead makes a parody. Seriously the dude has a passive force field because his power level is too strong and can attack by looking at people. This is some *teleports behind you* meme character bullshit. "MORE POWERFUL THAN TIME WOAHHHH". Literally just as bad as Ribrianne

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I recommend posting in your 20 containment threads and putting DBS or something similar in the title so it gets filtered, thank you.

Put Jiren in the filters and about half the threads will disappear you fag

Its really nothing new though. Goku was just as helpless against freiza before he transformed as eveyone is agaist jiren now.

>It's like Toriyama became aware of how negatively the power level bullshit affected the series and instead of fixing it he instead makes a parody
Power levels became bullshit literally in Frieza saga, Goku literally wins because they are bullshit. Goku didn't win because scouter says he has bigger numbers than Frieza, thus why Goku was able to challenge Frieza even though scouter was saying Frieza has 100 times more numbers in the power level.

How did power levels hurt the series?
Toriyama just stopped giving a fuck about power levels by the time they reached Cell arc, it's completely his own shitty writing and lack of care for his series

That's funny because ToP is probably the peak of Super so far. Face it faggot, powerlevel is what has always made Dragon Ball enjoyable. The best arcs of the original Dragon Ball were Saiyan and Namek/Freeza, the peak of powerlevel "bullshit". The worst parts of Super are the ones where powerlevel doesn't matter and you have stupid shit like SSB Goku being able to outdo SSB Vegito and Android 17 being able to equal SSB Goku.

Dragon Ball isn't fucking HxH (and thank God for that), people that can blow up a mountain being able to defeat people who tank blows capable of destroying the universe fighting on par because of some stupid trick is retarded.

>Goku didn't win because scouter says he has bigger numbers than Frieza

Yeah he did.

What does "more powerful than time" even means?

He's so powerful he doesn't age?

Powerful enough to bend the laws of time and space.

Fucking this. I am tired of fucking newfags like OP complaining day in and day out. ToP is legit the best arc of DPS and half of DBZ.

he was needed to break the toei asspull shitter

This, powerlevels were just a way to hype Freezer up and forgotten after that. Only the fandom went full autism with them ever since.

Both Jiren and Goku are strong enough to break through time skip and break into Hit's parallel dimension. Basically, Jojo characters would get destroyed by Goku/Jiren.

It just means he's faster than the speed of light

Even GER?

Prove that time exists and is something that you can "break"

Oh wait, you can't

>brings jojo out of nowhere

It means more powerful than Hit's energy maintaining the time trick. Doesnt mean he can transcend time iself you mongoloids

>ribrianne will outlast caulishit and bootleg broly
toei does something nice for once

Jiren would break through GER just like he did every hax power thus far. I can see GER beating Goku because he fucks around too much and gets blindsighted by pretty much everyone.

Fuck you, the best arcs were before the powerlevel shit.

You know, when Dragon ball was a manga about a kid going on adventures and learning martial arts

At the very least this puts to rest once and for all the fucking "MUH JOJO STANDS". It was already shown in U7vsU6 tournament that Dragon Ball characters can override spacetime fuckery if their power is greater than the one doing it, now it's been further confirmed.

Needless to say if someone SSG level like Hit can't hold Jiren, there's no way Giorno would be able to use his shit on any of the strong DB characters.

>Seriously the dude has a passive force field because his power level is too strong
Didn't literally everyone have this previously? One of the ways they'd show the strength of characters in DBZ was by having them face-tank a bunch of attacks that were known to be strong. Remember when Cell took a destructo disc to the neck and didn't even notice it?

>he best arcs of the original Dragon Ball were Saiyan and Namek/Freeza
That was DBZ not the fucking original, stupid Pedro, no wonder you think powerlevels are good.

This isn't a jojo thread, nobody cares

>anti-powerlevelfags only saw the anime

Figures. There was no Z in the manga, the Z was an anime only thing, in the manga it's all Dragon Ball.

Are you retarded? We call it Z because it's easier to distinguish, even when we're talking about the manga

If you'd read the manga, you'd know that the best arcs are before Z

It's a good thing he specifically mentioned the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arc then, isn't it?

>jiren so strong he can look you to death
>next big bad will be able to think you to death

wait that's zeno.

At the time Resurrection F happened Golden Frieza was literally stronger than SSB

accelerator would one shot jiren. reflect and it's game over.

Are you the same fag who keeps trying to start fanbase wars between Raildexfags and other series? Fuck off, Accel isn't even the strongest in his own universe.

Accel is pretty weak m8, he literally lost against a guy that only uses his hand

>hit freezes him
>the other sayians just go out to fight other people instead of pushing him to the void

SASUGA

Accelerator is a retard that got beat by a dude pulling his fist back and forth really fast

I bet ZenO can literally do that, but will never intentionally do since he is an autistic child.

Well compared to Dragon Ball where fights could be one because you employed alternative tactics, and we got to see a wider variety of fighting styles on display. Once Toriyama settled into just escalating a number to show that one character is better than the other fights became very samey. A lot of people like to host the Vegeta vs recoome fight but that's one of the last ones where it's not just opponents flailing limbs at each other.

You can notice how I'm Dragon Ball Z people who don't just use Kamehameha style beam attacks don't really do anything later on. The Destructo disk becomes useless all of Piccolo's extra techniques like hellzone grenade don't do anything ghost Kamikaze is a pointless ability. Any chance where we could have had variety and combat melted away.

So from where I sat power levels lead to incredibly boring fights that rely purely on hyping up that the next attack will be the strongest attack that somebody has thrown out. And the next new form is the strongest form that will see until Toriyama needs to wrap everything else up because he does not know how to actually write good fights just draw good-looking fights.

I forgot, did Grand Priest tell what happens when time runs out and there are still fighters left?

Universe with the most number of fighters win. Goku will likely force a draw by stepping out at the end.

So, why isn't Jiren just kicking everyone out of the ring?

This is why everything after the timeskip is shit. It used to be about martial arts, not just "my special attack is stronger than yours". Fights were actually entertaining and well-drawn, it wasn't just a bunch of fast scrambled movements. They had to use their heads while fighting and not simply rely on gimmicks

The kikoho used to be a technique so dangerous that it could even kill the user, now it's just a shit technique because Toriyama only cares about the saiyans. The entire gank used to be strong

He's lazy. Same reason why he isn't a God of Destruction and is sleeping all the time.

This is probably a Toei change I doubt Jiren will have a field in the manga as it only serves to drag shit out

...

Can't have strategy win a fight or something. That would be against the rules.

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Ore ga Jiren wo korosu. Dakara daijoubu boku ga iru kara

>go around 1 shotting everyone
>get caught in some mafubu type spell and memed out the ring

Its smarter to hang back and watch while everyone kos each other and observe what special techniques might be a threat. Also that would mean underestimating all the other universes. No matter how strong jiren thinks he is it would be foolish to think out of all the universes someone doesn't at least have a trick up their sleeve. Hes done everything right except no finish off goku.

O, my spinning nen!

Frieza didn't have a scouter when Goku went super saiyan you supreme retard. SS Goku outclassed full power Frieza easily, and that's the only big fight he won on Z from overpowering an enemy

AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

youtube.com/watch?v=-SoFqe2qXa4&t=5s

>not just "my special attack is stronger than yours
It was always like that though. It was just that more variety existed with what techniques were useful, and physical techniques had more spotlight.

It used to be that "he used [that] technique, it's so powerful!!" Then you saw a lot of "[blank] used [that] technique, but it did nothing. His opponent is so powerful"

The loss of an emphasis on martial arts during the freeza saga was bad enough. And while people like the Ginyu's promised the future use of unique abilities it all died out with Goku's arrival and him crushing everyone or just making their traits so gimped in terms if use. Ginyu was the only competent one and I did like his fights if only for the ending. That was actually creative.

I think the problem with dragonball is that too many fights are 1 sided. Desperate struggles are always the best, like the goku vs vegeta fights.

ayyyyyy

We get it, Paco. Go to bed.

Leave Jiren to me

though this fight was fun, i was laughing my ass off right here, seriously look at his arms lmaaaayyo

a good episode though, hit was getting his ass kicked as expected, but they did a good job of making it suspenseful with the true time stop technique. hope the next episode is piccolo/gohan vs those two namekians, i dont watch previews.

Power levels were never really a problem. They were a number that got dropped. Hell, seeing Vegeta's scraps on Namek were fun because he had to be wily and downright dirty to compensate for his lack of power compared to the opposition. The problem now is that Toei can't be bothered to write something halfway decent with or without any source material as reference. Toriyama gives them a generic-ass outline and they fill it in however they please. Sure, they might consult him every now and then about minor character things but that's it. He even said that every episode is a mystery to him. His involvement is so small. He doesn't care about Dragon Ball as much as you or any other person in this thread does and he's happy to see more of it without having to work. He could have easily made post-Namek stories interesting by introducing characters with cool and unique abilities. No. 19 and Gero were a step in the right direction. They brought back the Red Ribbon Army in some form and could siphon energy from people. But then it just defaulted to hitting hard, fast, and blasting people away. No strategy, no cleverness. The most strategy you see is Goku using Instantaneous Movement shortly before launching a Kamehameha but that was more hype than fighting aptitude. It didn't need to be like modern anime where you have game-like rulesets in fights but more diversification in abilities and whatnot would have been welcome. You have the Saiyans, the Namekians, Humans, "demons," Artificial Humans that are either purely synthetic, bio-mechanical, etc. and yet they all fight the same way. Jiren is something that Toriyama's characters never were though: boring. His only character trait is being absurdly strong. Freeza, Cell, Boo--they all had characters of their own. Your mileage may vary but I think it can be agreed that they were all at least somewhat interesting in design and personality. Broly is Toei's creation and he has more going on than Jiren in the first movie.

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(you)

>The kikoho used to be a technique so dangerous that it could even kill the user, now it's just a shit technique
>we will never see a kaio-ken powered kikoho
Literally the only thing that would redeem this arc was if Tien pulled one of these to eliminate or even kill a strong, relevant enemy and instantly vaporised himself while doing it.

>before the powerlevel shit.
lmao right
when vegeta was using "tactics" because he totally wasn't under the powerlevel cliff and helpless against the upper tier freeza force
power cliffs are used to guide the drama.

or you mean goku before the ultra divine water lmao
you're a fool

>They were a number that got dropped.
It's less about the number, and more the concept of a linear expression of power or "strength". Toriyama dropping the number during the cell saga didn't remove the problem. And while energy siphoning androids were cool, that gimmick dropped off with 17 and 18. Even the energy shield got limited usage.

Everyone fighting the same is also a symptom of power levels. You need to make everyone fight the same because strength is a singular facet of skills. A guy who can use psycho kinesis doesn't fit on the power levels scale so he'll be the weakest fucker around.

>It's less about the number, and more the concept of a linear expression of power or "strength"
I agree 100% with that. The homogenized fighting is part of a larger issue than just power levels though. It's Toriyama's waning interest and mediocre writing ability manifesting at what was probably peak popularity for Dragon Ball. I think this would have been the case regardless of whether power levels had existed so I kind of dislike power levels being used as a catch-all term for people's issues with fights in the second half of the manga.

The bullshit part is that Super Saiyan powerups drain power and Goku before using the Genkidama used all of his power. It doesn't make sense considering.

>so I kind of dislike power levels being used as a catch-all term for people's issues with fights in the second half of the manga.
I can see this, but at the same time the same time this problem happened was when power levels manifested as a term so I get why myself, and others use the term to encapsulate their problem with later DB. I agree that toriYama just started to give up, even re-reading the series shows me that chapters kind of just abruptly stop instead of creating logical stopping points and cliffhangers. Most noticeably during the Buu saga .

It is more complicated than one phrase, though do agree.

I know how Jiren is defeated.

Goku jobs a second time against Jiren. Frieza realizes that the only way to defeat Jiren will be to make him accidentally kill somebody. Piccolo volunteers but they can't because dragonballs. Gohan volunteers but apparently he has a secret power he's saving according to Piccolo and is convinced against it. Vegeta has no desire to sacrifice. Frieza suggests one of the lesser fighters of the other universes but they're all being too careful. They land on one of the U6 saiyans. Cabba volunteers and jumps right in the path of a deadly blast directed at Goku but at the last moment Kale shoves him out of the way and tearfully smiles at Caulifa. Kale dies, Jiren however isn't disqualified as Angel kai deems that it was self inflicted. It becomes clear that Angel kai is refballing for Jiren and this drives Caulifa over the edge and she hits SSJ3 but then surpasses it and achieves Pure Super Saiyan (Think Trunks during black saga). She somehow goes toe to toe with Jiren obtaining power on par with Ultra Instinct. This is as far as the leaks go

>Ungaro whips out his signed copy of One Punch Man's first issue
Your move, atheists.

Dragon ball really went to shit after the piccolo Jr. arc. At the very least until then while differences in power existed, they could be compensated with technique, skill and strategy. After it, it become all about being stronger than the opponent or pull a technique so strong it more than makes up for power difference.

Quit being a butthurt faggot just because you don't fully comprehend how anime has become more meta since the 80s

I'm glad we can agree. I can also see why people would use the term "power levels" to just give the cliffnotes version of what they hate about Dragon Ball. I think it ought to be dropped when having conversations like this though because it's simultaneously vague and specific if that makes sense. But yeah, there's a sharp decline in quality across the board for late DB. Toei actually improved upon the Boo arc in some ways because the filler was suddenly handy for bridging certain points of particular scenes.

Nah, Goku asks Zeno if he can bring back Hit, he calls it safe because it'd be cool, they fusion dance and go UI, hit Jiren out of the arena with Ultra Instinct Time Skip and defuse

But I thought Caulifla was Goten?

Only by the (poorly written) laws of their own universe. Elsewhere? They get bodied.

Nothing really. It's just a half baked throw away line to explain why Hit's attack that doesn't work based on power levels can be ignored. Jiren's number is just too big, so fuck you I win.

t. Hitpedro

>Hit tries to do that and Jiren rapes him with just his glare

But hey nice strategy speedwatcher

Jiren is just a really boring character.

No build-up, just introduced as the strongest-guy ever, no real personality either. He's just they to be a bench-mark that impresses everyone until he eventually gets surpassed by a Goku recolor.

Let me go a bit further , Joblifla jobs to Jiren despite here recent asspulls. Goku surprisingly gets his ass handed to him for the third time.

Finally Gochad/Chadhan turns Jiren inside out with his "special power" that piccolo mentioned. Then I will swing in the tears of U6 saiyan fans.

Frieza will surpass him.

jiren barrier wouldnt be able to be broken by those weak sayians

How will be called the new and obligatory new super saiyan form that will be used to defeat Jiren? Because it sure the new power up failed to do shit

Am I the only one who unironically likes Toppo? He's a pretty cool guy.

shit characters for a shit series. nothing new

He's fine. Although he seems insanely weak compared to what he used to be.

Nice headcanon toyopedro, Jiren > Time. Hit was not nerfed to the level of the shitty Manga Hit

Compared to Goku and Jiren maybe, but those are the only ones stronger than him right now. Maybe Golden Frieza and Vegeta, maybe. Remember that he's on par with SSB Goku. Hit vs Toppo would probably be a more even fight than Jiren eating the donus.

>What is fiction
Fag

>The absolute state of JoJews
Imagine being THIS much in denial

It doesn't, so you have to consider the first awakening working another way. Maybe it brought his power back from almost 0 up to 100% of what it is in SS since he wrecked the shit out of Frieza.
Speaking of which he had his shit smashed in by the Genkidama, it just didn't kill him. So even after he went 100% he was already weakened

Time related powers in Jojo are more powerful than to those shown in DBS

>MUH STREET LEVEL FIGHTERS
Giren solos GER