continuation of
Holocaust thread, BTFOing the deniers
Daniel Foster
Jayden James
The holocaust did not happen. 230,000 jews died from starvation due to collapsing supply lines and an outbreak of typhus.
Fuck off kike.
John Long
It didn't look like you btfo anyone desu
Robert Reed
You got BTFO that thread kike, its time to end your life.
Ethan Collins
*Physically impossible* to cremate a body in less than a hour
Hudson Green
How come? If you mean about the American retard spamming something about breaking the laws of physics, I was about to spam rebuttals of his claim that I am allegedly breaking the laws of physics, or if you think about the guy with name who claims Hitler bought Madagascar, the time I wanted to answer his thingy the thread got archived.
Henry Williams
FPBP, all fields
Nathaniel Hernandez
DO YOU DENY THAT THE LATENT HEAT OF VAPORIZATION OF WATER IS 2.23 MJ/kg?
Yes or no?
Angel Garcia
DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE TEMPERATURE OF A CREMATION OVEN IS 1000°C (OR LESS)?
Logan Moore
I'll just start the rebuttal of the American retard and maybe he'll see this
---------------------------------------------------------
The use of cremation ovens appears to have begun sometime in the 1870s. It is known from cremations carried out in 1874 that a 47-pound child could be cremated in 25 minutes, a 144-pound woman in 50 minutes and a 227-pound man in 55 minutes. [104] In 1875 it was reported that a body could be cremated in 50 minutes. [105]
Mattogno cited a participant from a British cremation conference in 1975 who stated that the "thermal barrier" for a cremation was 60 minutes. [106] He ignored the comments of another conference particpant who suggested that most of the burning occurred in the first 30 minutes:
"After about half an hour, whether the furnace has gotten up to a temperature of 1100°C or whether it is 900°C, there is a rapid fall away, and I think the investigations should be concerned with the last twenty minutes or so of the cremation cycle. At that time you have in the cremator a very small quantity of body material...roughly the size of a rugby football, about twenty minutes from the end of the cremation, and this is the thing which is most difficult to remove." [107]
The instructions for the Topf double muffle furnaces envisaged that a body would be added into the oven during the last twenty minutes that it took to fully cremate the corpse that had been previously inserted.
Jack Brown
No one is buying your shit here kike. Try reddit.
Brody Gutierrez
The instructions for the Topf double muffle furnaces envisaged that a body would be added into the oven during the last twenty minutes that it took to fully cremate the corpse that had been previously inserted.
"As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left for a further twenty minutes to be fully consumed....In the meantime, further corpses can be introduced one after the other into the chambers. [108] (Emphasis added.)"
As will be seen later, there is now strong evidence that bodies were added before the prior corpse was fully incinerated, resulting in a 25 minute burning cycle for each body.
Charles Ramirez
Parker Jackson
In Germany of the 1880s it was possible to cremate a body and the coffin which housed it in 60 to 75 minutes. [109] The cremation process became very popular in Germany in the years preceding World War II. In 1926, Berlin newspapers reported that one fifth of all those who died in that city were cremated. [110] By 1931 Germany led Europe in cremations. Of the 94,978 cremations in Europe that year, 59,119 were in Germany. Germany had 107 of the 226 crematoria in Europe. Membership in German cremation societies exceeded those in other countries. Germany also had more cremation journals than any other country. Of the seven named cremation journals at a British cremation conference in 1932, four were German. [111] By the 1930s there were two principal oven builders in Germany. One of these was Topf and Sons, identified earlier as the builder of the Auschwitz ovens.
One of the problems when discussing cremation issues at Auschwitz is that using ovens to dispose of bodies at the rate taking place there is without precedent in human history. To put this in some type of perspective, in the state of California with 20 million people in 1982 there were 58,000 cremations. [112] Yet in Auschwitz, which never had more than 92,000 registered prisoners, many times this number were cremated over a four year period.
Brody Scott
Why do you guys even deny the Holocaust to begin with? I don't understand how it fits your worldview. You believe Jews are a menace that should be purged from the West, so why not just view it as an ultimately necessary attempt to do that? What, would you feel a sense of guilt if you admitted it was real?
Joshua Adams
Isaac Cruz
The traditional means of body disposal in times of war has been through open air burnings. Thus in Leningrad, now St. Petersburg, during World War II at least one million people were known to have died. They were burned in the open. [113] As will be seen later on in this study, open air burnings were also utilized extensively at Auschwitz.
The specific problem with Auschwitz is that because of the unique nature of what was happening there and the absence to date of any records documenting even one cremation or how these ovens worked, we are necessarily forced into a certain amount of speculation. We don't really know how many bodies could be burned in the crematoria on a daily basis, how much fuel was needed to burn a body, the life span of an oven, or the effect on any of these considerations when more than one body was being burned in an oven. Moreover, the nature of what happened makes it scientifically impossible to duplicate. For example, it is unlikely that there will ever be another opportunity for 52 ovens, all in the same location, to dispose of bodies under the same conditions that existed in Auschwitz. Also, modern cremations are subject to a whole host of rules and regulations not applicable to German concentration camps. In modern cremations the ashes of those cremated cannot be comingled with the ashes of other decedents. German concentration camps were under no such compulsion.
Cameron Parker
Mattogno computed what he claimed was the maximum number of bodies that could possibly be cremated in the four Birkenau crematoria from the time each became operational until October 30, 1944, the date that camp historian Danuta Czech identifies as the last gassing. He had found documents showing the days repairs were done to the ovens. From these repair documents, he claimed that he was able to establish how many days each of the crematoria could function. He claimed that Krema II went into operation in mid-March 1943 and went out of service shortly thereafter for 115 days until July. It then functioned until October 30, 1944. He also claimed that Krema III went into operation on June 25, 1943 and was out of service for 60 days in 1944. [114] He was correct as to the dates that these crematoria went into service. However, the sources he cited do not support his contentions about the crematoria being out of service for the period claimed. His source for Krema II being down for 115 days was a letter to Topf from the Bauleitung, dated July 17, 1943, which discusses problems with the blueprints for the chimney because they had not taken into account temperatures caused by an expansion of the heat. However, the letter says nothing about the Krema being out of service. [115] The most current research on this issue states that Krema II went out of service for one month beginning on May 22, 1943 because internal lining of the smokestack and the flues connected to the incinerator began to collapse. [116]
Jacob Cruz
Why do you keep DENYING PHYSICS to prove your tale?
Oliver Gonzalez
Dylan Cruz
Similarly, Mattogno's source for Krema III being down for 60 days in 1944 only mentions that doors on the ovens were being repaired on June 1. It also mentions that there were continuing repairs in all of the crematoria from June 8 to July 20, though it is not stated whether these repairs were on the ovens. [117] However, these documents present no evidence that any of the crematoria were shut down or that the ovens for Crematoria II, III and V were not working during this period of time (Recall that Krema IV's ovens went down permanently in May 1943.) It is known from information on Gusen that Topf ovens could function even on days when there were repairs. [118]
Based on his erroneous estimate on down time of the ovens in Crematoria II and III, Mattogno calculated that if each oven could burn 24 bodies per day, then a maximum of 368,000 bodies could have been burned from the period these ovens first started operation until October 31, 1944. [119] Mattogno did not address the issue of Krema I, in the main camp, which was shut down on July 19, 1943. [120] As will be seen, however, in the part of this study dealing with open air cremations, Mattogno also identified a body disposal method not dependent on the functioning of the ovens. This means that even if his numbers on Krema capacity are correct, they are irrelevant.
Adrian Davis
The issue of oven overuse surfaced in the recently discovered post war interrogations of three Topf engineers by the Soviets. Kurt Prüfer, builder of the ovens, was asked why the brick linings of the ovens were damaged so quickly. He replied that the damage resulting after six months was "because the strain on the furnaces was enormous." He recounted how he had told Topf's chief engineer in charge of crematoria, Fritz Sanders, about the strain on the furnaces because of so many corpses waiting to be incinerated as a result of the gassings. [121] Sanders stated that he had been told by Prüfer and another Topf engineer that the "capacity of the furnaces was so great because three [gassed] corpses were incinerated [in one oven] simultaneously." [122] A Sonderkommando, one who worked in the crematoria during this period of time, wrote that cracks in the brickwork of the ovens were filled with a special fireclay paste in order to keep the ovens running. [123]
At the hate speech trial of Canadian Ernst Zundel [124] in 1988, a supposed expert on cremations named Ivan Legace testified that the maximum number of bodies which could be disposed of daily in each of the 46 Birkenau ovens was three per oven for a total of 138. [125] This figure found its way into the Leuchter Report. [126] This is one more example of Leuchter's incompetence in these matters. Even Mattogno stated that "[t]his figure is actually far below the actual capacity." [127]
Asher Cruz
Contrary to Legace and Leuchter, it is known that the Topf ovens could work on a continuous daily basis. This information comes directly from notes kept by prisoners who worked at the crematorium on the daily operation of the Topf double muffle furnace in Gusen from October 31 to November 12, 1941. The notes show that an average daily incineration of 26 per muffle over a 13 day period. [128] However, the Gusen ovens did not always work around the clock. Therefore, the records show that on most days they only operated part time. [129] Topf's instructions for these muffles from July 1941 state:
"In the coke-heated T double muffle incinerator, 10 to 35 bodies can be incinerated in about 10 hours. The quantity mentioned above can be incinerated daily without any problem, without overworking the oven. It is not harmful to operate the incinerator day and night if, required, since the fireclay [resistant walls] lasts longer when an even temperature is maintained." [130]
Brayden Bennett
That's without accounting for bone and other tissue
John Myers
These comments also apply to the three double muffle furnaces in Krema I of Auschwitz which were of the same construction. Similar instructions were issued by Topf for the Auschwitz ovens in September 1941. These instructions state that "[o]nce the cremation chamber [muffle] has been brought to a good red heat [approximately 800°] the corpses can be introduced one after the other in the cremation chambers." The instructions also state that at the end of the operation the air valves and doors and dampers must be closed "so that the furnace does not cool." [131] These instructions directly contradict Legace's assertion that the ovens needed to be cooled. [132]
It is interesting to note that the instructions for both the Gusen and Auschwitz ovens suggest that continued use at an even temperature will actually prolong the useful life of the ovens. On the same day that the Gusen instructions were issued, two Topf engineers stated that the Topf double muffle furnace could incinerate 60 to 72 bodies [30 to 36 per muffle] in a 20 hour period with three hours of maintenance required. [133]
Kurt Prüfer, the Topf engineer who built the 46 Birkenau ovens, stated in a letter on November 15, 1942 that the ovens he installed in the Buchenwald concentration camp had a one third greater output than had previously been thought. [134] Unfortunately, he does not say what number the one third is greater than. However, on the same day he informed the Bauleitung that five triple-muffle furnaces, 15 ovens, could incinerate 800 corpses in 24 hours. [135] This means that a muffle could burn about 53 bodies in a 24 hour period. Reducing the time by four hours means that 44 bodies per muffle could be burned in a 20 hour period
Noah Watson
Oliver Sanchez
As has been mentioned twice before in this study, the best information we have on the output of these ovens is the period from October 31 to November 12, 1941 in Gusen, after they had been overhauled. While the 677 bodies burned during these 13 days average 26 per muffle, an analysis of the underlying data reveals that a Topf oven could burn far in excess of this amount. On November 7, 1941 these two muffles incinerated 94 bodies in a period of 19 hours and 45 minutes, or 47 per muffle. This means that each oven could incinerate a body in 25.2 minutes. This was probably achieved by adding a new body to the oven before the prior body had been totally incinerated, a method which appears to have been envisaged by the Topf instructions discussed earlier. This method should not be confused with multiple body burnings to be discussed in the next part of this study. This 25 minute figure is not far from the Prüfer estimate cited in the prior paragraph. Mattogno totally ignored this information. Rather, he focused on the November 8 information which shows 72 bodies burned. He erroneously claimed that it took 24 1/2 hours to burn these bodies. He had misread the time sheets. The actual burning time for these bodies was between 16 and 17 hours. [136]
The most controversial information comes from the Bauleitung on June 28, 1943. It reported that in a 24 hour period the six ovens of Krema I could incinerate 340 bodies; the five triple muffle furnaces each in Kremas II and III could incinerate 1440 corpses, or 2880 combined; Kremas IV and V could each incinerate 768 corpses or 1536 combined. The total for all five was 4756 and the total for the four Birkenau crematoria Kremas II through V - was 4416. For purposes of comparison with Gusen, there were many lighter-weight women and children incinerated in the Auschwitz ovens. By contrast, there were no women and children in Gusen in 1941, only men. [137]
Ryan Price
Deniers reject the Bauleitung figures outright. Denier critics have not totally accepted these numbers. However, the Gusen data suggests that the Bauleitung figures may have been more credible than previously suspected. The Bauleitung's 340 figure for 24 hours for the six ovens of Krema I comes out to about 25 minutes per body burned, the same result achieved at Gusen on November 7, 1941.
What about the four Birkenau crematoria? At the time the Bauleitung gave these numbers, all the crematoria had been functioning for some period of time. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Bauleitung at least had some information upon which to base these figures. Both deniers and their critics agree that an oven could not incinerate a body in 15 minutes time, which is what would be required for the 46 ovens to burn 4416 bodies in 24 hours. The information available from Gusen suggests that the maximum attainable was 25 minutes, and then only by adding a body before the previously introduced body was fully consumed. It is also certain that the ovens could not operate on an indefinite basis for 24 hours per day.
Wyatt Diaz
But could an oven burn a body in 15 minutes? Not with the traditional method of burning one body at a time. However, the issue becomes more problematical if multiple body burnings are considered. This means that an oven would burn more than one body at a time. The practice was not unusual in German concentration camps. For example, one of the early histories of Dachau stated that it took 10 to 15 minutes to burn a body. [138] The source does not say how this was accomplished. However, the standard history of Dachau, written some years later, states that an oven could burn 7 to 9 bodies in two hours when they were all introduced simultaneously. [139] Seen in this light, the 15 minutes becomes more feasible. The issue of multiple body burnings will be examined more comprehensively in the next part of this study dealing with fuel consumption.
Tyler Powell
Stop spamming you asshole, we are trying to have a serious conversation!
Juan White
Xavier Smith
>Copypasta proves things ITT
>PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE stuff actually happened
>Checkmate nazitards
Jose Turner
> He calls himself fucking "V"
This is a troll thread I guarantee it.
Isaac Clark
Elijah Rogers
>you hate the jews
>so you should automatically think the holocaust is real
Dumb fuck low IQ subhuman. We're interested in the truth, not believing in bullshit facts just because hurrr duurrr you hate Jews.
Juan Young
Kevin Garcia
Brody Jackson
Source 1
Blake Watson
Aiden Harris
Source 2
Xavier King
Source 3
Bentley Phillips
Source 4
Kevin Carter
why would there thousands of survivors from camps that were supposedly designed to exterminate them?
how can you walk into a camp run by efficient fascist germans for the purpose of your death, and then walk out 6 years later ???
it doesnt make sense, obviously these people were just used as forced labour
Michael Edwards
Jackson Moore
Let's continue!
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As was noted earlier, the furnaces at Auschwitz were coke fueled. Mattogno claimed that there were not enough coke deliveries to Auschwitz to cremate the number of bodies of non-registered prisoners who were murdered in Auschwitz from April to October 1943, the time when the four new crematoria were operating. Prior to mid-March 1943 only Krema I in the main camp was operational. There are only records of coke deliveries for the period from February 16, 1942 through October 1943. From April 1943 to October 1943 there were 497 tons of coke delivered. [140] The information on coke deliveries was compiled by denier critic and French researcher Jean Claude Pressac, who gathered the information from the records of the period held in the Auschwitz State Museum. He examined the records of 240 coke deliveries and then compiled these amounts into monthly figures for the period in which records exist. It should be noted that it is not known whether these records are complete for this period of time.
Considering the fact that there are no records for the periods before mid-February 1942 and after October 1943, and that ovens were known to have operated during this period, it is quite possible that the records under discussion are incomplete. Such incompleteness can be inferred by comparing coke deliveries for which there are monthly records with the number of deaths of registered prisoners. In July 1942 there are records for 16.5 tons of coke delivered.
Isaiah Anderson
Josiah Howard
In that month there were 4124 deaths of registered prisoners. However, for March 1942 there are records for 39 tons of coke delivery but only 2397 registered prisoner deaths. [141] In September 1942 there were about 9000 deaths of registered prisoners and 52 tons of recorded coke delivery. In the following month there were about 5900 deaths of registered prisoners and only 15 tons of recorded coke deliveries. The second-highest month of coke deliveries was in May 1943 when 95 tons were delivered. However, the deaths of registered prisoners were very low in that month. The exact number cannot be isolated because the death books run from April 14 to June 4 and show 2967 deaths. Thus, it is safe to assume that there were about 2000 deaths of registered prisoners. Therefore, the month of the second-highest recorded coke delivery also corresponds with the month of either the lowest or one of the lowest monthly death totals of registered prisoners. [142]
The issue as to how much coke was actually delivered to Auschwitz would be resolved if there were some central numbers issued by the Bauleitung for the years at issue. Holocaust denier David Irving published in 1993 what he purported to be such numbers for the years 1940 through 1944. These figures had allegedly been found in the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow. [143] However, no file number is cited for these figures. Three attempts by the author to have Mr. Irving identify the source of these numbers have not been successful. Mattogno writes that he was unable to find any support for Irving's numbers in the Auschwitz Archives in Moscow. [144]
Mason Green
Jeremiah Fisher
Mattogno examined the record of cremated prisoners at Gusen for the period from October 31 through November 12, 1941. These numbers are a contemporaneous account that were kept by prisoners on the cremation detail. Photocopies were sent to the author by the Mauthausen Memorial Museum. [145] Mattogno stated that the numbers show that over a 13 day period from October 31 to November 12, 677 bodies were cremated using 20,700 kilograms of coke, or 30.5 kilograms per body. One kilogram equals 2.2 pounds. Mattogno argued that the 497 tons of coke delivered to Auschwitz from April to October 1943 were not enough to cremate the number of registered and non-registered prisoners who were killed. One thousand kilograms equals one metric ton. He examined Danuta Czech's Auschwitz Chronicle which shows that about 103,000 unregistered prisoners disappeared after arriving at Auschwitz during this period of time. He added this number to 21,580 registered prisoners who died in the camp. He stated that there was not enough coke to cremate the corpses. In order to cremate this many corpses with the available coke, it would mean that each corpse was cremated using 4.1 kilograms of coke. [146] Therefore, he argued that 103,000 non-registered prisoners could not have been killed in the camp during this period of time. When he divided the 21,500 registered prisoner deaths by the amount of coke consumed from April 1943 to October 1943, he arrived at 22.7 kilograms per body. [147] Mattogno did not explain what happened to the 103,000 non-registered prisoners.
Isaiah Kelly
Liam Thomas
The Gusen file that Mattogno relied on shows the amount of coke in the form of wheelbarrows used to transport it to the ovens. [148] At the top of the page it states "Karren Koks," or wheelbarrows of coke. Below this heading it states that one wheelbarrow equals 60 kilograms. However, this weight is only stated for the period from September 26 to October 15, 1941. During this period 203 bodies were cremated using 153 wheelbarrows. This means that 9180 kilograms (60 kilograms times 153 barrows) incinerated 203 bodies at 45 kilograms per body. The 9180 number appears on a backup page of this file where the 153 wheelbarrows are multiplied by 60 kilograms. There is some reason, however, to suspect that each wheelbarrow did not contain 60 kilograms of coke but that this was a generic number based on the theoretical maximum that each delivery could hold. In other words, 60 kilograms was attached to each wheelbarrow regardless of actual weight. For example, on October 3 eleven bodies were incinerated using 13 wheelbarrows. At 60 kilograms per wheelbarrow it would have taken 71 kilograms per body. However, on October 15, 33 bodies were incinerated using 16 wheelbarrows, or 29 kilograms per body. [149 ]
Gabriel Kelly
Connor Evans
Serious question:
Why do deniers think it's literally physically impossible to burn carcasses quickly?
hurikanincinerators.com
>Fast burn rate - with fast 2000-3000kg/hr burn rate – a single HURIKAN 3000 can incinerate up to 60,000 chickens a day, at 1.2kg average weight.
>3000 kg per hour
You're basically saying "Look guys, this modern sailboat can only travel 7 knots. Do you really believe WWII battleships could travel at 35 knots? That's physically impossible!
Luis Bell
Chill friend let me first refute the American imbecile, then I'll refute yours.
Julian Jenkins
All your are posting only proves that your sources are liars since it's well known their claims are PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
Thomas Harris
Caleb Roberts
The ovens underwent an extensive overhaul from October 16 to 22. The period of time that Mattogno was analyzing, October 31 to November 12, shows that 345 wheelbarrows were used to incinerate 677 corpses. However, unlike the information prior to the repair of the ovens which attached a weight to each wheelbarrow, and an aggregate weight to all 153 wheelbarrows, there is no such information on wheelbarrow weight after the overhaul. Mattogno just assumed that each wheelbarrow weighed 60 kilograms without informing his readers that there could be problems in such an assumption and that even the original weight of 60 kilograms per wheelbarrow for the pre-overhaul ovens could be erroneous.
Nevertheless, the Gusen file does provide some very valuable information. It shows that the more efficiently the ovens burned fuel the more bodies that could be burned in a much faster period of time. Thus, for the period prior to the ovens' overhaul, only 203 bodies could be burned in a 10 day period from September 26 to October 15 using 153 wheelbarrows of coke. However, over a continuous 13 day period after the overhaul was completed, 677 bodies were burned using 365 wheelbarrows of coke. It was during this period that 94 bodies were burned in two muffles on November 7 using 45 wheelbarrows of coke and 72 bodies burned the following day using 35 wheelbarrows. The implications of this fact for the 46 ovens in the four new crematoria at Auschwitz are important because the figures show that the more efficient the fuel usage the faster the bodies burned.
Nathaniel James
Mattogno admitted that the triple muffle ovens of Kremas II and III and eight muffle ovens of Kremas IV and V could burn bodies with greater fuel efficiency than the double muffle ovens of Krema I, but would not admit that this translated into faster body burning. He stated that the triple muffle furnace could burn a body with one third less coke than was needed in the double muffle furnace. He calculated the amount needed to be 16.7 to 20.3 kilograms per body. The eight muffle furnace could burn bodies at about half the fuel needed in the double muffle furnace, or 12.5 to 15.25 kilograms of coke per body. [150] Mattogno gave some calculations as to the reason for this phenomenon without mentioning that his figures are loosely based on data provided to the Bauleitung by Topf.
The only authoritative information available on the fuel efficiency of the triple and eight muffle ovens was provided to the Bauleitung by Topf. On March 17, 1943 the Bauleitung issued a memo under the heading: "Estimation of coke usage for Crematorium II K L [concentration camp] according to data [Angaben] from Topf and Sons [maker of the ovens] from March 11, 1943." The memo goes on to describe the data in terms of fires. Crematoria II and III each needed ten fires for 350 kilograms of usage per hour. However, the number could be reduced by one third if they were used on a continuous basis, which meant that each crematorium would use 2800 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period. In the eight muffle furnace the fuel savings were even greater. When those ovens were worked continuously they would burn 1120 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period. This means that all four crematoria could operate on 7840 kilograms of coke in a 12 hour period (2800 each for Kremas II and III and 1120 each for Kremas IV and V).
Adam Garcia
The Bauleitung concludes: "These are top achievements. It is not possible to give a number for usage for the year because it is not known how many hours or days it will be needed to heat it." [151]
Mattogno represented this information as meaning that "Crematoria II and III could have cremated about 240 bodies a day, and Crematoria IV and V about 130 - a total of some 370 bodies. The estimate given in the memo thus indicates that a daily average of 370 emaciated adult corpses were expected for cremation." [152] This is simply a false characterization of the data. There is no mention of the number of bodies that could be burned. The key fact is that the fuel data given by Topf is based on the number of hours worked irrespective of the amount of bodies burned. This fact caused many problems for Mattogno because, as noted earlier, estimates on the number of bodies which could be burned in a ten hour period in one oven ranged as high as 36, and Topf engineer Prüfer had even estimated 800 bodies in five triple muffle ovens in a 24 hour period. The real dilemma for Mattogno was in the Bauleitung figures given on June 28, 1943, discussed earlier, that 4416 bodies could be burned in a 24 hour period in the four new crematoria, or 2208 in a 12 hour period. When the 7840 kilograms of coke usage for a 12 hour period are divided by the 2208 bodies which could be cremated in a 12 hour period, the average comes out to about 3.5 kilograms per body. Mattogno never addressed this issue directly. However, he was aware of the problem that the June 28 Bauleitung figures could pose. To deal with this problem he reverted to a common denier tactic. He announced that "this document is a fabrication." [153] Thus, any document which deniers do not like is commonly explained as the result of forgery and conspiracy. Mattogno did not say who might have "fabricated" this report.
Christian Johnson
The issue is whether the crematoria were capable of burning a body in 15 minutes, the amount of time suggested in the Bauleitung report of June 28, 1943. As was noted earlier, an oven could not incinerate a body in 15 minutes with any known technology of the period, but a different picture emerges when multiple body burnings are considered. The information from Dachau, cited earlier, mentions burning 7 to 9 bodies simultaneously in a period of two hours. In the Hartheim Castle in Austria, where there was a gas chamber, a crematorium worker testified after the war that two to eight bodies would be simultaneously cremated. [154]
The practice of multiple cremations was known outside of Germany well before World War II. In Osaka, Japan in the 1880s there were 20 cremation ovens each of which could incinerate three bodies simultaneously in a period of four hours. [155] In 1911, a Japanese oven was presented at the International Exhibition of Hygiene in Dresden, Germany which could burn five bodies simultaneously in a period of 2 to 2 1/2 hours. [156] This history reinforces the feasibility of being able to burn multiple bodies in technologically advanced Germany 30 years later. The fact that ovens are not built for the purpose of multiple cremations is not determinative as to whether the practice is actually carried out. The best illustration is the United States where the practice is illegal. There was a major scandal in the early 1980s involving mortuaries in Southern California. Employees of a facility testified that it was common practice to burn several bodies together. An embalmer stated that he saw five bodies in one retort (an oven) while another saw seven or eight people being cremated simultaneously.
Caleb Ward
Mason Morales
Creampie surprise. It was fake. Jewish Kvetching on maximum.
Ian Price
The founder of one the United States's first cremation companies stated that the burning of several bodies simultaneously results in their not burning "uniformly and the ashes come out very dark." [157] Interestingly, deniers are often critical of eyewitness accounts that describe black smoke belching from the crematoria. Burning that produced black ashes may very well have led to black particulates in the smoke.
There was a great deal of testimony about the practice of multiple burnings at Auschwitz. Alter Feinsilber, a Sonderkommando - one who removed the dead bodies from the gas chambers to be cremated - stated that five bodies "burned more quickly in that quantity." [158] The SS guard Pery Broad wrote that four or five bodies could be held in each oven in Kremas II and III. [159] Sonderkommando Filip Müller stated that three or four could be incinerated at a time. [160] Sonderkommando Szlama Dragon testified that three bodies were incinerated at a time. [161] Two prisoners who escaped in April 1944, whose report was based on information received from Sonderkommandos, stated that three bodies would be burned at a time. [162] Mieczyslaw Morawa, a worker in the crematoria, testified that tests done on the Birkenau crematoria before they became fully operational showed that three bodies could be simultaneously burned in a period of 40 minutes in each of the 15 ovens in Krema II. He stated that these tests were conducted with a stopwatch by the SS. [163]
Owen Gomez
Mattogno was aware that the testimony about multiple body burnings would cause him trouble in making his coke arguments. He argued that such a procedure produced no benefits either in the time a body could be burned or the fuel savings. Thus, he argued that multiple burnings would simply take two times longer to burn two bodies which were simultaneously introduced and require two times more fuel. His argument was based on the information for the double muffle ovens in Gusen. He stated that if there were multiple burnings it would have occurred in Gusen on November 8, 1941, the day that 72 bodies were burned. [164] Recall from the prior section of this study that Mattogno claimed that on November 8 it took 24 hours and 30 minutes to burn 72 bodies, but that the actual time was between 16 and 17 hours. Actually, the Gusen information for November 7 which shows 94 bodies burned in 19 hours and 45 minutes, or about 25 minutes per body, would have been more compelling information for the argument he was trying to make. However, he was unwilling to admit that a body could be burned in 25 minutes under any circumstances.
Andrew Lee
>Comparing bullets to arrows
They're projectiles after all goy they're all the same!
Bentley Rogers
>27 posts by OP and he was BTFO'd by the first post.
Lmaoing at your sad excuse of a life hahahahaha. Go back to /his/ you dumb kike.
Christian Murphy
The problem with Mattogno's argument is that we can be fairly certain that there were no multiple burnings on these days. An engineer's report for November 7 and 8 shows four hours of work was done on these ovens on each day, with four hours of work on November 6 and an additional 8 hours on November 9. These facts mean that there were repairs on the ovens on the same days they were burning bodies. [165] Under these circumstances it is highly unlikely that multiple burnings would have occurred. Mattogno also examined this file but was unable to find any evidence of multiple burnings. As was noted in the prior section of this study (see discussion at footnote 135), Prüfer's estimate of 53 bodies per muffle in a 24 hour period is a rate within the range of the 47 bodies per muffle burned on November 7 in a period of 19 hours and 45 minutes. As was noted, this rate was most probably achieved by introducing a body into a muffle before the prior body had been fully consumed, which is not the same as multiple burnings. This possibility appears to have been envisaged in the Topf instructions for the Auschwitz ovens discussed earlier. (See the discussion at footnote 108.)
The most complete account of the operation of these ovens was given by Sonderkommando Henryk Tauber in his deposition of May 1945. Auschwitz was liberated in January 1945. It is as close as is available to a contemporaneous document. Tauber began work in Krema I in February 1943 but was eventually moved to Kremas II and III. He also worked in Krema V. Mattogno never addressed Tauber's testimony. Tauber stated that it was common to burn five bodies simultaneously in an oven. He also stated that it took about an hour and a half to incinerate five corpses being burned simultaneously. [166] This time period is not unrealistic. Recall that it was earlier noted that a Japanese oven could burn five bodies simultaneously in a period of 2 to 2 1/2 hours in 1911.
Dylan Price
Tauber also noted that under the right conditions it was possible to burn eight bodies simultaneously in an oven. He mentions the case when there were eight emaciated corpses. He also states that when children were incinerated the Sonderkommando would burn the bodies of five or six children with two adults. [167] He even described how the children's bodies were placed in the furnace to prevent their falling into the ash bin. [168]
Tauber also addresses the issue of fuel usage in the burning of the bodies. His testimony is important in this respect because he shows that it was an issue and the authorities had developed methods of dealing with it. He explains:
"As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Crematorium II, each with three muffles for cremating the corpses and heated by two coke-fired hearths. The fire flues of these hearths came out above the ash [collection] boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two side muffles then heated the center one, from where the combustion gasses were led out below the furnace, between the two firing hearths. Thanks to this arrangement, the incineration process for the corpses in the side muffles differed from that of the center muffle. The corpses of ... wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely the corpses of people gassed on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the center muffle. During the incineration of such corpses, we used the coke only to light the fire of the furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned of their own accord thanks to the combustion of the body fat." [169]
Aaron Taylor
Jeremiah Martinez
Tauber's explanation of using the body fat of fat corpses as a source of fuel was emphasized elsewhere in his testimony. Thus early on he mentioned that "[t]he process of incineration is accelerated by the combustion of human fat which thus produces additional heat." This method was used in Crematoria II and III. Later on he mentioned that when a fat body "was charged into hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow into the ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body." [170]
Using the body fat of corpulent victims as a fuel was something that would require first hand knowledge. Tauber was a shoemaker and would not have been in a position to know this without actually observing it. The issue is how credible was this testimony. The German engineer Rudolf Jakobskotter, who Mattogno had cited as an authority on cremation ovens, wrote that body fat produces heat for burning in an oven. [171] Mattogno did not directly address the issue of using body fat in the ovens as a source of fuel. He had initially dismissed testimony about using body fat in cremation pits to accelerate the burning process. However, he subsequently withdrew his initial objection by writing that "I have discovered that such a procedure can be made to work if done in a determined fashion..." [172] Tauber had also discussed how body fat was used in the cremation pits to accelerate burning. [173]
Angel Taylor
This. The guy makes some decent points, but the real problem he never addresses is the fact that the kikes deserved it if it did happen. I would vote for Hitler 2.0 today and work the ovens if we could solve our rampant degeneracy problem. Almost all of which is spearheaded by kikes. If Hitler wanted them dead he could have just not fed them. He didn't need camps. or pedal powered brain bashing machines. The one thing you have never ever even approached in any of these was why everyone always ends up hating jews. I'm going to assume the old hat jealousy will be the card you play and not degeneracy of people who see themselves as constant outsiders taking every opportunity in their favor irregardless of the cost to their hosts.
Joshua Watson
The process of using body fat in an oven was also described by Sonderkommando Filip Müller, who noted that the authorities had found ways to place the bodies in the ovens to maximize fuel efficiency.
"In the course of these experiments corpses were selected according to different criteria and then cremated. Thus, the corpses of two Mussulmans [camp slang for emaciated prisoners] were cremated together with those of two children or the bodies of two well nourished men together with that of an emaciated woman, each load consisting of three, or sometimes four, bodies. Members of these groups [SS men and civilian visitors to the crematoria] were especially interested in the amount of coke required to burn corpses of any particular category...
Afterwards all corpses were divided into the above mentioned four categories, the criterion being the amount of coke needed to reduce them to ashes. Thus it was decreed that the most economical and fuel saving procedure would be to burn the bodies of a well-nourished man and an emaciated woman, or vice versa, together with that of a child, because, as the experiments had established, in this combination, once they had caught fire, the dead would continue to burn without further coke being required." [174]
Logan Brooks
Similarly, Auschwitz camp commandant, Rudolph Hoess testified at Nuremberg that three bodies would be burned simultaneously and that the bodies of fat people burned faster. [175] He also mentioned the burning of three bodies simultaneously in his memoirs, [176] the accuracy of which is the subject of another study on the THHP website.
The Tauber deposition was given and Müller memoirs written years before anyone knew that coke would be an issue. Both accounts clearly show that fuel was a serious consideration in the running of the crematoria and that the authorities had found ways to deal with the problem.
Wood was also another fuel source available for the ovens. Topf had made ovens which could be fueled with wood but they were not as efficient as the coke models. [177] Tauber stated that wood and straw were used for the ovens when coke was in short supply. [178] Mattogno located records for the delivery of wood made in September and October 1943. He argued that the amount of wood delivered was the equivalent of 21.5 metric tons of coke, not nearly to enough to solve the problem.
Charles Morales
Thomas Bailey
However, Mattogno is familiar enough with the Auschwitz surroundings to know that the camp authorities were not dependent on formal deliveries of wood. Photos of the Birkenau area during this period where the crematoria were located show it surrounded by a heavily forested area. [180] In fact, there was an abundant supply of wood in the surrounding area. It was only necessary to go out and cut it down. Photos of Krema III after its liberation show large piles of cut wood on its outside grounds. [181] A report on the strength of the crematoria detail for August 1944 shows 30 wood unloaders [Holzablader] attached to 870 fire stokers divided into two 12 hour shifts. [182]
Jack Scott
I wish the holohoax did happen. Then I wouldn't have to see or hear Jews ever again. They make me sick.
Colton Rogers
Then by all means, prove every single crematorium in every single camp was only able to burn 1 body per 8 hours or whatever made up numbers you use.
Or you can just admit it's possible you're wrong and don't have any proof of your claim except shitty math.
Joseph Myers
Lucas Rivera
Grayson Perry
See1000K oven
Jonathan Lee
Austin Mitchell
Source 5
Ryder James
Because the Auschwitz gas chamber pictured was converted to a military bunker for the second half of the war, and the killing gas chamber was moved to a second location 2 km away.
So they replaced the door with one they would actually use.
Wyatt Thomas
Source 6
Daniel Perry
Easton Wright
Source 7
Aaron Ward
So you're claiming that the company that makes these incinerators is lying about how fast it's physically possible to burn corpses?
And every single other company that makes animal incinerators is lying too?
Or maybe some random user on Sup Forums is just making up bullshit fake math.
Luke Fisher
JIDF OP is trying so hard, but he got already BTFOd by thermodynamics
Jordan Thomas
Source 8
I hope the American imbecile can see this now.
The American who spammed this
Eli Hernandez
lol *benny hill theme plays* can't let the goyim know!
Cameron James
I've just posted an entire rebuttal of that, sweetie. Care to refute?
Chase Rivera
God's Chosen are above the laws of thermodynamics.
Justin Kelly
Luis Clark
Josiah Davis
except those incinerators werent available in 45. try again
Lagacé stated that this claim was "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of reality." To claim that 46 retorts could cremate over 4,400 bodies in a day was "ludicrous." Based on his own experience, Lagacé testified that it would only have been possible to cremate a maximum of 184 bodies a day at Birkenau. (27-7436, 7437, 7438)
Lagacé was referred to page 17 of Did Six Million Really Die? where Harwood stated:
Although Reitlinger's 6,000 a day would mean a total by October 1944 of over 5 million, all such estimates pale before the wild fantasies of Olga Lengyel in her book Five Chimneys (London, 1959). Claiming to be a former inmate of Auschwitz, she asserts that the camp cremated no less than "720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift." She also alleges that, in addition, 8,000 people were burned every day in the "death-pits", and that therefore "In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were handled every day" (p. 80- 1). This, of course, would mean a yearly rate of over 8-1/2 million. Thus between March 1942 and October 1944 Auschwitz would finally have disposed of over 21 million people, six million more than the entire world Jewish population. Comment is superfluous.
Lagacé testified that from his own experience in cremating approximately 1,000 bodies, the figures cited by Reitlinger and Lengyel were not realistic. The person citing such figures, he said, was, "irresponsible... with his facts because this doesn't even begin to enter reality at all. It's just physically unrealistic." Lagacé said that even with present disaster plans, which provide for massive mobilization and the handling of large numbers of human remains, it would be "unimaginable" to cremate such numbers. (27-7447)
Christopher Cruz
Owen Thompson
6 million Jews weren't cremated.
Everything I just spammed addressed this.
Several false or exaggerated testimonies don't disapprove the Holocaust.
Goering's green folder.
All these Almanacs have the same source, from 1938
James Nelson
Yeah why not just post the link of his essay in one comment instead of maxing out thread after thread.
Oh because no one would read it, just like no one's reading his comments. What a pitiful way to debate.
>Here's 10,000 words without time for rebuttal or conversation! Hope you survive!
Christian Sanchez
1. Slave labor
Let this quote explain it to you 2. THAT'S A LIE, caught you lying again
They mentioned it
i.imgur.com
imgur.com
3. Brothel used for the SS
Inmate infirmary for possible Typhus (Germans avoided Typhus areas) and because Auschwitz-Birkenau also held a certain number of slave labor.
4. They were executing them like that, see Babi Yar for example. But Einsatzgruppen started suffering from PTSD.
5. That's another lie I posted numerous documents ITT.
6. It wasn't an official death toll of Auschwitz (more specifically it wasn't accepted by Westerners), also it was 4 million PEOPLE, not JEWS. This calculation comes from solely from crematorium capacities. It was dismissed.
7. ANOTHER LIE -> Höfle Telegram
8. Refuted here -> imgur.com
9. The camps in Germany were for slave labor, but even in them half a million Jews died.
10. LIE
They had protective gear (gas masks, rubber gloves), see Pressac's book. Everything about the gas chambers is explained there.
11. None of these stories were accepted in the first place. Although the soap story is proven by DNA testing, but it was from cadavers of prisoners dr. Spangel in Danzig produced a small quantity for his needs in the laboratory.
12. These claims were put up by the Soviets and they were dismissed due to lack of evidence.
14. Addressed here holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.hr
15. [citation needed]
16.That's a lie, the sonars have proven the contrary. If you're talking about Krege, he never published his report and he was debunked.
17. That's a lie, I've provided documents ITT, there is also a lot more and this audio tape for example youtube.com
18. Why is it illegal to deny the Holodomor in Ukraine? Why is it illegal to deny communist crimes in Poland? Why is it illegal to deny the Armenian Genocide in Armenia, Cyprus and was before in France?
Kevin Thomas
19. It's labeled as Hate speech. Look up Gayssot act for example.
20. Your point?
21. These claims are dismissed by historians.