Do you consider manga to be literature, or is it just for kids?

Do you consider manga to be literature, or is it just for kids?

Manga started out just for kids,but it grew into something so much more.
>No

Those aren't mutually exclusive.

It's literature for kids.

I didn't specify what I meant, No I don't consider manga as just being for kids.

Depends on what's the definition of literature.

Doujins are perfect reading for kids.

I know you're new to this user but your threads would 404 less often if you just bothered to do a little research beforehand.

Ask yourself this, if Watchman comics can be considered literature, according to TIME Magazine's list of the greatest novels of all time, then why can't manga?
Manga are literally just comics from Japan.

Time Magazine isn't an authority on anything, let alone literature.

>literature
>just for kids
Literature can be for kids.
Things which are not literature are not necessarily for kids.
You have issues with classifying statements and logic, don't you, Anonymous?

it's a form of literature just like novels, if it wasn't literature we wouldn't discuss good or bad writing in them, and the fact that the use of kanji is very important in what a character means when talking just cements this, now fuck off

Maus and Sandman are considered comics for adults, so what does that make manga?

Yeah, but is it REAL literature?

Imagine me and you are best buds. Its the weekend. I say call you and say, "Hey, user, want to go to the park later today?" Of course, being that we're very close friends and all, you gladly accept the invitation. About an hour passes and we both meet each other at the local park. Its a sunny day. The weather is beautiful. We exchange greetings and set off on a stroll. We enjoy each other's company, sharing small stories and tidbits of things going on in our lives. Since this particular park is in a semi developed area, there are some sandwich stops not far from the park. You decide to suggest that we pick up a bite to eat. I happily agree and we go pick up some sandwiches. We've gotten our sandwiches and find a nice spot to sit in the park under some shade. We continue discussing the simplicities of each of our lives in the warmth of the spring weather. Any passerby would surely assume we were lifelong friends. As our conversation comes to an end and we finish our sandwiches, we get up from our eating spot and decide to take one last stroll before departing. You remark that the weather is truly splendid today. I couldn't help but agree. We come across a large pond during our stroll. We see children playing in the distance and something else. Something much smaller. I immediately realize its a duck. You, being the wildlife lover that I know you are, eagerly go to greet the duck. I follow you at a close distance as you approach the animal.
You turn to me.
You ask, "Do you consider ducks to to be birds, or just for kids?"
I pause
"W-what?"
You stare at me, paused, expression unchanged.
I hesitate, "w-well sure I would say that they're birds by definition but I'm not sure what this has to do with children user. I mean, they're birds regardless of whether children are involved, wouldn't you agree?"
You do nothing but continue to stare emptily into my eyes.
You open your mouth, expressionless, slowly uttering the words, "Yeah, but are they REAL birds."

.

>Manga started out just for kids
Manga started out in the Edo period, my man. While there were manga for kids then too, it was mainly for adults. Some of the manga was pretty dirty too.

It's neither literature or just for kids.

You got me user, I laughed.

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Shush, Natsuki, the adults are talking.

>Do you consider books to be literature, or just for kids?

What do you think, you fucking Mongoloid.

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There are literature for kids, and there are literature written by kids. Re-ask your question.

Assuming (and feel free to correct me) that you're asking if manga can be considered of the same calibre as mankind's finest acclaimed writings - you're not going to get a satisfactory answer on Sup Forums

Manga is a medium that tells a story in a different way, let's leave it at that

>He doesn't think about manga as some complex, deep and intelligent form of literature and instead he deems it a low quality product devoid of any trace of worth that was crafted for the lowest common denominator.

Its literature's french fries, its mostly garbage but tasty and filling.

As someone who actually reads books as a hobby, I think of manga as a way of keeping myself reading without having to commit to a work too much, manga is a nice casual thing that you read without any kind of worry. That being said, there are a bunch of manga out there who are better than a lot of "serious books", its a good media that has a purpose and fulfills it beautifully.

Manga is manga, literature is literature. HxH showed that medium doesn't matter when manga became the medium that delivered perhaps the greates fictional story ever created

This is what huntards believe

You do know literature can be for kids right

MANGA IS LITERATURE AND THIS WILL NEVER HAVE AN ENDING

Do you consider best-sellers to be literature, or is it just for housewives?

>Manga is a medium that tells a story in a different way, let's leave it at that
Exactly.
And as in other mediums (literature, movies), there are works for kids, for teenagers and for adult people. And there are also good and bad works

The manga, and comic in general, has a visual aspect, and a written part, mixed to tell something. In fact this a pretty rich way to tell something, it includes various arts, so it's at the least a pretty cultural thing. I don't understand why it's so underrated.

>reading
the average american does not like reading so it's very understandably not popular in america.

There are no substantive traits to differentiate pop-literature from high-literature. Every work of a medium must be judged by its individual merit.

>popularity does not correlate with quality
popularity has an inverse relationship with quality in the sense that in a medium with high amounts of casuals, the average consumer has less experience with what makes a piece good, therefore the more 'average' consumers like something the less great it tends to be.

Just for kids.

>muh elitism
You're delusional. That's like saying Shakespeare and The Beatles were bad because they were and continue to be incredibly popular. Terrible logic.

Whether or not it's high literature or pop-literature is another argument, but in Japan, Manga is something everyone reads, since due to the sheer amount, there's literally everything for everyone.

People'll tilt their heads if you tell them you watch anime as a hobby, but not if you read manga.

I just ordered the first omnibus of this online. I'm gonna read the whole thing but I need to know, just how likely is it that Inoue finishes this series? Is he even still working on Real anymore?

You're good people, user.

You reek of insecurity.

>elitism
it's not elitism, it's well grounded and rational theory. now you just brought up 2 examples that you feel are contradictory of what i said, but they really aren't
>shakespeare
is popular because he was revolutionary in theatre, and you'll find that most people (casuals) who like his work don't like it for the same reasons that the people who do understand the medium (experts) do.
>The Beatles
music is an inherently subjective thing and again, casuals don't like it for the same reason that experts like it.

I could name a million examples that contradict what you say, but I don't because exceptions are not the rule.

do you think Flo Rida and Pitbull are the pinnacle of music quality because they had a couple #1 hits?

You are on the right track, but failed to consider that a piece can be so bad that even a consumer with little to no experience would realize it's bad. In terms of quality, popular stuff tends to be around the mean on a standard normal distribution.
Consider Naruto, it's one of the most popular series in the west so with your reasoning it should be one of the shittiest, but it's not really difficult to find something worse, it's just an overrated mediocre series.

Your argument lacks logical consistency. If you can't name the reasons experts and casuals differ, then you have no argument beyond your own contempt for popular opinion. Also, music is no less subjective than any other art form. You seem pretty casual yourself not to know that.
Also:

But your post said nothing about the reasons people like something, you just talk about an inverse relationship. You are not being consistent in your argument, user.

>Pitbull and Flo Rida
No, but I do think that The Beatles, Michael Jackson, Elvis, and Stevie Wonder are all great, and they all had a bunch of #1 hits. You can't have a rule if you have to ignore the most obvious examples.

I'm not so pretentious that I claim to speak for the experts of a medium that I don't understand, you fucking idiot. It's okay not to know things.
That being said all you have to do is ask a (casual) and an (expert) on their opinions on Shakespearean theatre or The Beatles and you'll understand immediately from the differences in what they're saying
>casual: shakespeare is good because the plotlines are dramatic and cool *
>expert: shakespeare is great because he was a revolutionary playwright who influenced heavily the new age of theatre through his excellent use of vocabulary and dramatic effect*
*heavily paraphrased but if you ignore the point you're just baiting people or you're really stupid
so on and so forth
>music is no less subjective than any other art form
and you're being stupid here. drawing, painting, sketching etc. all have an objective quality to them (i.e. technical mastery you fucking dolt) and while this is present in music (musical capability) this has no actual bearing on whether or not the music 'sounds' good or not.

saved

It depends on if the manga is actually made for kids or not.

Let's put popularity aside. What is quality? Who defines it? Some so-called "critics" or the average consumer? Some niche experienced part of the readership, or new readers since this would speak of how approachable the work is? It's all sophistic wankery, what really matters is subjective enjoyment and nothing else. Why do I care if some work is top-notch according to some school of thought's criteria of objective quality if I'm not enjoying it? This same work would probably be considered shit according to another school. This guy said it best. If you like it, then it's good.

>If you like it, then it's good.
Why does the concept "guilty pleasure" exist then?

I don't know what line you got sold about music, but craft and technique are just as important and relevant to music as any other medium.
There is no hard and fast rule for defining high art, and if you have to rely on the consensus of "experts" you will still get a wide array of differing opinions.
You have not given a solid definition or means of differentiation beyond "if smart people like it, it's good," which basically just makes you a sheep.

>tends
>tends
>tends
a.k.a. generally if you don't get it already
>all that matters is subjective enjoyment and nothing else
some works have more value on an objective fucking scale i.e. influence through innovation e.g. shakespeare, moby dick, etc unless you sincerely believe that because the subjective 'enjoyment' is the same to some people from reading HuckFinn as the Berenstein fucking bears they are of the same quality

Harry Potter was incredibly influential, spawning hundreds of similarly themed fantasy school setting novels in its wake.
Is it high art now?

For the same reason even people with a healthy lifestyle and an extensive culinary culture will crave fast food every once in a while even though it's shit.
It's comfort food. It's warm and familiar.

I can point to a fuckton of manga that I can tell you right now aren't for kids. That's like asking if all movies are for kids because children's movies make up a large portion of them.

>craft and technique are just as important to music
in the fucking niche where craft and technique are appreciated. do you not get the point? that casuals don't understand the medium at all and go off a very basic sense of quality?
why do you think madvillainy and young thug sell nothing?

>misinterpreting the point
that's not the influence on the medium like you think it is. more people writing a certain genre and setting because it was popular does not count as literary influence.

I thinks it exists because people are afraid to admit they like something that they "should" hate so they tell you it's a "guilty pleasure" to let you know they know what "should" be called good to fit in. The fear of being called a pleb.

You never made a point, and you don't know shit about art.
Also pretty convenient that anytime your definitions get proven wrong, they're just "exceptions" like The Beatles, or "don't count" like Harry Potter.

Manga can be for both kid and adult

Only brainlet enjoy anime

You can enjoy eating shit as long as you dont try to convince me that your shit is actually pretty tasty and can pass for food

However it is true that popularity =/= quality since the amount of casual retards are overwhelming

See Nurutu

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No, I believe since I'm not an academic (and they even can't agree on what "good" is), I shouldn't care about things that doesn't concern me like influence or innovation. I just want to read a good book/watch a good anime, I'm not making a documentary on the medium.

Also, what sells has more to do with marketing than quality. That's why Motown sold records like crazy. They made great music, but they marketed well, too. Madvillian may not sell well, but Kendrick Lamar albums go Platinum. There is no hard and fast rule, as much as you want there to be.

>the point: casuals don't understand the medium and what they like tends not to be reflective of quality
i don't know how you miss this unless you're baiting me.

>exceptions like the beatles or don't count like Harry Potter
Harry potter was 'influential' in the sense that everyone wanted to be the next 'harry potter' so they decided they would write a story with the same setting and same rehashed plotline as a cashgrab. what has this influenced on medium as a whole? besides a temporary spike in high school fantasy wizard stories being written, absolutely fucking nothing. HuckFinn was a work that allowed people to redefine what they understood as an adventure book, not just 'dude running away from family to live on the fucking mississippi' setting. your failure to understand my point only furthers reinforces the fact that you may be stupid.

if you ever find that your views align with critics on a substantial (>60% is my arbitrary figure) percentage of works then you should absolutely be concerned with the increasing casualisation of an industry because it ruins the whole medium, unless it's a medium where the works of high quality are basically another medium altogether compared to the ones of lower quality e.g. books.

yes i am well aware. i was saying
>generally

That's where you're wrong, redditspace-kun. Who says what you hate is shit? Maybe what you like is what's shit. What is shit in the first place? What are the criteria of shit? My point is, you shouldn't care. What you think is shit, is shit according to you and that's what should matter. I haven't read or watched Naruto and I'll never will, but I doubt it would've stayed in serialization in one of the most cut-throat manga magazines if it was "shit".

>Naruto
that's some fancy toilet paper you got there.

>I doubt it would've stayed in serialization in one of the most cut-throat manga magazines if it was "shit"
It was more interesting than Double Arts and Mx0, for sure.

That wasn't your point though. You didn't say "popularity isn't an indicator of quality." You said "popularity has an inverse relationship with quality." You're wrong, popularity is arbitrary, and is not a good indicator of quality in either direction. Stop backpedaling.

>the amount of casual retards are overwhelming

Next you tell me shit like Twilight was good. Or 50 shades of gray was meaningful. Or reddit was actually great. Or tumblr isnt full of degenerates

>I haven't read or watched Naruto and I'll never will

Underage or newfag not welcome

Fuck off.

>tends
>tends
>tends
its like you forget what words mean

Go have shit taste somewhere else

It's still wrong though, popularity tends to mediocrity.

well as a kind user pointed out above clearly that was the intended effect but i'm a raging autist over
>muh subjective enjoyment
so stop being a pedantic cunt

Don't try and pass generalisations off as rules. That's not even the case. Unless you've poured through the top 40 charts and bestseller lists, reached critical consensus on every work, and then averaged the "critically acceptable" pieces against the "casual" pieces, you can't claim to have reached any conclusions about the tendencies of popular opinion to esteem lesser works.

Who is Caecilius and why is he in a tree?

You're the one who's obviously a newfag who can barely speak English and doesn't understand how line-breaks work. I've been watching anime for a decade and have like 1000 completed shows. Long-running shounen are what's usually synonymous with newfaggitry.

>tends
>tends
>tends
how many times do i have to keep saying this. do you know what this word means?
>the more average consumers like something the less great it tends to be
i will analyse each phrase in this sentence so you understand
>the more average consumers like something
i.e. the more popular it is amongst people who are not understanding of the medium
>the less great it tends to be
note: i did not say
>the worse it tends to be
meaning i did not say it gets proportionally worse the more popular it is
it means i say it stands out less the more popular it is
>tends to be
i.e. in generally it happens to be
do you still not understand?

a dude that died in pompeii, he's in literally everybody's first latin textbook, and horto means garden not tree.

>people claiming there's no objective parameters to determine quality on a work
>same people claiming Naruto is shit or mediocre
Funny.

>A decade
>Only 1000 shows
>Claim to be not new

I got that much shows watched / read by the age of 14. Go be casual somewhere else

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Thank you.

If you're talking about me I never said anything about Naruto's quality other than I doubt it's shit since I haven't read it or saw it but your can't deny that since it's super mainstream, it's more likely to have casuals in its fandom.

>lying on the internet
Lurk for two more years.

>nigga takes pride in a mere 1000 shows watched now

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Samefag. Lurk for two more years

Shut the fuck up. I understand you. You're admittedly making generalised statements, and relying on such subjective criteria as "being less great." You have no argument, beyond your own distaste for popular culture.
Also, btw, Mark Twain was wildly popular when he was alive, so the fact that you keep using Huck Finn as an example is priceless. He was one of the best selling novelists of his generation.

Nice one

I have been reading manga since the age of 5, bud. Maybe your shit tier power level can impress some faggots on reddit or MAL but it is fucking pathetic

There are manga for adults. And by adults i mean not juvenile tits and gore.

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>wildly popular in a time when those with access to books were actually educated
what the fuck do you not understand you mental midget
are you trying to claim popular culture is good?
are you trying to say that i should make high modality black and white statements?
are you trying to say that 'being less great' is a criteria and not a quality?
what the fuck do you mean by this you autist with no argument?

You're a real human bean user.

I'm done with you. All you've done is make bullshit claims, and then every time you're offered an example or counterpoint, you just claim it's an exception, and you're only making generalisations.

kek, so this is the power of a person with no argument
without citations and quotations anything you say has no weight
go take a high school english class then come back

Kek, this level of retardation belongs to /lit/
But Thanks for the birds, user. It deserves to become a pasta.

>tends
>tends
>tends

Only falcons are real birds because falconers are real men like me.