Well, Sup Forums?

well, Sup Forums?

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sage

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>what are capital costs, marketing costs, overhead, and business reporting requirements?

Hurt durr, muh labor, muhfugga. Muh each according to his need, muhfugga.

Value is subjective.
Labor theory of value is false.
The diamond-water-desert parable proves this.
Both sides of a trade can feel like they are winning, when I buy dinner I value the food more than my money, and the restaurant values my money more than the food.

none of those things would exist in a socialist society.

It isn't really about the labor, but about the property you own as a result of your labor. The labor theory of value may be false, but the labor theory of property is not.

>The diamond-water-desert parable proves this.
No it doesn't. All it proves is that commodity fetishism is a thing.

>post on pol with an ancom flag

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I don't have the time to buy my own fucking machines, my own fucking connections, my own fucking trucks, my own fucking accountants, my own fucking manager, and my own fucking job.
sage

start your own business and then reap all of the value of your labor

Why don't you seize the means of production then?
I can't because, I like 99% of people, am poor.

I make my own money because I'm not a tard

>I can't because, I like 99% of people, am poor
No excuse to see us all starving.

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Retard, like i'd shoot my co-workers and my boss all for getting more money. I DON'T NEED IT.

youtube.com/watch?v=XxIbq7HkalQ
>Your concern is not to help the people
>And I'll say again, though it's been often said
>Your concern is just to bring discomfort, my friend

dude. stop. just stop.
>mfw when I was almost as dumb, but not quite

>Why don't you seize the means of production then?
Because communism has failed every single time it has been tried.
And crying about not getting the total value you produce is retarded because of

>Why don't you seize the means of production then?
Because thats theft you fucking retard

because when the company loses money I still get paid. i do not suffer the risk so I should not share the reward.

because classic comunism is an advertisment for a totalitarian power grab
>YOU'VE BEEN FUCKED SO HARD IT HURTS TO SEE YOUR POST
also let's not forget Marxism is the alienation of a leveled working class from its hypocritical party elite that despises its ruling demographic as an uneducate underclass even if high communist have all the power to eleve themm
>FUCK COMMUNISM AND THE NUMEROUS JEWISH MIND PERVERSIONS

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The taxes circle is the only part of your diagram that is theft.

if the worker got paid the same as their productivity they would have to pay a share of every expense of the business because there is no money left to run it.

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because the more value I produce the more money I will make when I strike out on my own.

Of course, if you are not willing to strike out on your own, you are on your own. you whiny marxist bitch

none of these expenses would exist in a socialist system, with the exception of maintaining equipment.
700 million people go hungry every year. It's not because we don't produce enough food, it's because the capitalist system only cares about profit. You, like every other prole, can and will be thrown aside when the boss stops seeing you as profitable.
>t. middle manager, thinks he's going to be rich one day.
they wouldn't. There are no taxes there is no advertisements, there are no profits, or legal fees. Let's also not pretend that your diagram is drawn to scale.
capitalism kills way more people every year than socialism has.
profit is theft. Why does the boss have the right to own the factory? Why not the people who actually use it and are productive?

If you can't negotiate your wage over value, you deserve your cuckwage you faggot

you know what marksism is, institutional social jewry for everyone , except the proletariat
>FUCK THE KIKES

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>profit is theft. Why does the boss have the right to own the factory?
Because the boss poured their capital into acquiring it (Either through construction or purchase). You didn't use YOUR capital and thats why its not YOURS.

love all these retards saying MUH COST OF BUISNESS

no shit some money has to go to cost of business, that doesn't make profit okay

>thinks he's going to be rich one day
No greedy commie, I don't need to be rich. In reality, your greed and jealousy far exceeds that of rich people but you deny it.

when the company loses money you get laid off, or have to work twice as hard for the same pay.
imagine being working class and thinking that your boss stealing the majority of the value you produce isn't theft.
the workers would get payed their wage+surplus value. The cost of repairs and replacement of machines is not part of the surplus.

>700 million people go hungry every year. It's not because we don't produce enough food, it's because the capitalist system only cares about profit. You, like every other prole, can and will be thrown aside when the boss stops seeing you as profitable.
Who cares about shithole countries?

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My wage is determined by the supply of labor.
Where did the boss get that capital? He toiled for 50 years as a factory worker?

Why does he get to keep the surplus value of something he did not produce?
Im not greedy. I want people to be paid for what they produce.

>My wage is determined by the supply of labor.

A man who makes a business has seized the means of production.

So in this case, why don't you start a business. Outcompete your competitors and then buy their shares.

You have now seized the means of production.

Faggot.

You've just lost all credibility and proved that ancaps are social retards who think believing in a meme ideology makes them edgy.

>My wage is determined by the supply of labor.
Then your value is shit

>700 million people go hungry every year.
Yeah, in third world nations which consume foreign aid like black holes. Capitalism pouring billions of dollars into them can't save them, neither can socialism doing the exact same thing

HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO COMPETE WITH WALMART?

>My wage is determined by the supply of labor.
Translation: I have no discernible skills and can be replaced by a crack head of the streets with minimal training. Joined a skilled trade faggot and it's amazing how much your quality of life improves

HAHAHAH humans arent all the same some are just better than others they rule over others.

t. communist beta

You don't need to compete. You can still seize the means of production buy creating your own business.

You aren't a capitalist are you? Don't you just want to make cool stuff and share the value with your friends? You can do that without competing with Walmart.

How would you solve the local knowledge problem?

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>Where did the boss get that capital? He toiled for 50 years as a factory worker?
No, not for 50 years, but in quite a few cases, yes.
You can actually do this if you aren't fucking retarded with money.
But you're a socialist so actually understanding how economics works is clearly beyond you.

You don't even have an excuse. The cost of starting a web based business is 0$.

capitalism is truly the best system. It allows millions to starve, and it's proponents will shrug their shoulders and say "they're niggers who cares?"

t. muh bootstraps.

This is the same argument made to justify the divine rights of kings. Oops I forgot you ancaps are monarchists now.

It's because you're competing with slave labour from china. You really don't want to live in a communist nation. The best you can hope for is a transition into robot-supported NEETism

>HOW DO YOU EXPECT ME TO COMPETE WITH WALMART?
You can´t even stop crying about your low paycheck, why the hell do you expect that you would be able to run a business? How about getting education or skills and start being an productive individual?

>You've just lost all credibility and proved that ancaps are social retards who think believing in a meme ideology makes them edgy.
No one cares about blacks with an IQ of 40 who produce 20 children a day without even having food for themselves.

>it allows millions to starve
While doing its best to stop it from happening via foreign aid and charitable donations.
Hows communism in western nations gonna unfuck sub-Saharan Africa?

Becaus eil not a retarded communist who believes in surplus value. You get what you can get depending upon what others are willing to pay, some may value a piece of leftist “art” quite highly, meanwhile I wouldn’t pay jack shit for that crap

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Im not a capitalist. I don't own the means of the production. The only thing I own is my labor. Im assuming you are in the same situation. Why are you advocating against your own interests?
>t. you too can become Mark Zuckerberg if you work hard at it
If I believe hard enough will it happen?
And if I get no investors? Guess I'll starve.

I'm mad at both you antifa cocksucker.

and we would all be poor as fuck because its not there retard. go to venezuela...oh and stop larping with a meme flag if you want to be taken seriously

You do realize that taxes eat 75% of your income? Did you never receive a paycheck in your whole life, retarded commie?
In your graphic it is about 20%.

sage

>If I believe hard enough will it happen?
Zuckerberg got lucky. And Rome wasn't built in a day. If you want a global corporate empire, try having generations of your family work hard making and re-investing profits.

user he's a lazy nigger. he would rather LARP as a commy while collecting social welfare thanks to income provided by people better then him. he's a loser who will die off in 15 years anyways

>The best you can hope for is a transition into robot-supported NEETism

that's called communism

>No one cares about blacks with an IQ of 40 who produce 20 children a day without even having food for themselves.

ancaps are seriously cyrpto monarchists.

donations are antithetical to capitalism. People are the ones trying to stop starvation not capitalism.

I'm neither an ANCAP, Communist or Anarchist.

The question of production becomes a question of what you can readily produce. The question is whether you want to create an economy of scale or if you solely want to sustain yourself.

If you own your labour, you can choose to apply it somewhere else. Such as weaving baskets, making replica swords in your backyard, home brewing, website design, financial accounting, drug dealing, etc.

If your labor has value, then applying that value to yourself allows you to obtain all the means of your own production.

>capitalism is truly the best system. It allows millions to starve, and it's proponents will shrug their shoulders and say "they're niggers who cares?"
That is not the case you stupid mong. Millions of people starve in Africa because they persecute their farmers arbitrarily when very few people know how to farm. It isn't a matter of race or economics, but the stupidity of the people that live there. If you can explain to me the relation between economic systems and agricultural advancements, be my guest.

You still haven't answered how western nations going commie would stop Africans from starving.
Either show how it's going to fix it or erase the talking point from your brain.

>try having generations of your family work hard making and re-investing profits.
try being born rich.

when the ancap realizes he is losing the argument he starts arguing like a fucking monarchist.

>erase the talking point from your brain.
He doesn't have one, user

and that's value, retard

Starvation is not a bad thing. In many cases it is unethical for example to send foreign aid to Africa. Because you are perpetuating suffering. You are encouraging a non-sustainable population to grow.

Where as if you were to cut foreign aid and allow them to starve, then their population would shrink to a more sustainable level. Where each one of them may be able to improve their quality of life.

profit is perfectly legit for the businessstarter you fucking mong after the wages have been negociated on hire and the leftover get left for they owner unless the workers hold stock

>ever seen a workers hold stock company, NO ? because commies are all empty promise and no delivery you fucking kike

why yu think there are no employee held businesses anywhere on earth ? because it doesnt work that way , not even for commies

why does the CPUSA not hold several productive companies by holding stake of their workers ?

>BECAUSE COMMIES ONLY CARE ABOUT THE POWER GRAB AND NOT WE THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, IT'S ALL IN THEIR BOOKS
AND IT'S A SHAM
>fuck commies and the kikes
fuck you both
(pic half related - jjabrajew's only credential was that he was a jewish acquaintance of Spielbergjew -no merit and itshows in his decrepit worthless film - RACIAL NEPOTISM NOT ACTUAL WORTH )

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youtu.be/zkPGfTEZ_r4
Socialism. So good you build Walls to keep people in

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When you consider socialism, do not fool yourself about its nature. Remember that there is no such dichotomy as “human rights” versus “property rights.” No human rights can exist without property rights. Since material goods are produced by the mind and effort of individual men, and are needed to sustain their lives, if the producer does not own the result of his effort, he does not own his life. To deny property rights means to turn men into property owned by the state. Whoever claims the “right” to “redistribute” the wealth produced by others is claiming the “right” to treat human beings as chattel.

Here's the thing. I want a job, then I have to receive less than my overall worth. If I want to run my own business, I still won't get to play with my full worth, because I have to spend money on the business.
Really what you are asking really is "Why does shit cost money?" because you are a stupid nigger

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>applying that value to yourself allows you to obtain all the means of your own production.

that's not how it works. If it was, everyone would be a billionaire zuccboi.

that's one country you mongoloid.

world communism would absolutely do it.

>try being born rich.
And how were they born rich? Because their parents/ancestors WORKED HARD AND STARTED A BUSINESS.
Also, people don't stay rich if they just let their company rot.

youre an ancap

I sleep and watch movies at work while making six figs... Fuck you and fuck muh value produced. I get taxed over 1000 per paycheck!!!! Too much!

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>ancaps are seriously cyrpto monarchists
Oh, tell me how we can feed the whole world while unskilled people breed like shit

labor value theory is retarded and taxes are a higher % of GDP than corporate profits

>"Why does shit cost money?"
this is a legitimate question.

>world communism would solve the problem of massive unsustainable populations
ahahahaha no

this. they might even be forced to innovate and fix there countries with the removal of foreign aid. allowing africans to stand up and be proud. but nah lets give them gibs and treat them like we would treat a household dog and give them there food and water, and make sure to take them out the back.

The point is - you do not need to be a billionaire. All you need to do is reclaim your own labour enough to control your own destiny.

Then all of your expenses are of your own making. All of your profit is of your own brow. You will have enough to live. Working for yourself does not automatically mean billions of dollars. But what it does mean is freedom, liberty and the ability to control your own destiny. You will obtain 100% of your profit after taxes.

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no its not.

>we should be ruled by an aristocracy of rich people

ancapism always devolves into monarchism.

capitalism isn't voluntary. Either you get exploited or you die.

It's called the pareto principle and it's totally natural you dumb nigger.

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Here we go.

Every time I btfo this argument
The value you produce minus your income is redistributed amongst your support coworkers, to the recruiters to hire team mates, to project managers who arrange resources, to IT to provide you with functional tools, to the executives who design the business model.
Each company is its own communist society with different rules for this redistribution.
The government only should regulate the external interactions of corporations between eachother and customers.
Tax is objective theft when your value is taken to give to useless unproductive people. Im ok with taxes for roads and defense for the same reason Im ok with my production value redistributed to run the company especially since some years or quarters run on a loss
Each corporation

>we should be ruled by an aristocracy of rich people
>Mentions that people don't stay rich forever without effort
>Mentions that you can start your own company
With some work you/your children can BE ONE OF THEM
Also
>What is the middle class

I support some ANCAP values but I also support the values of working as part of a nation. Both coinciding with eachother. Where the individual works for himself but enriches those around him. But I cannot support full anarcho capitalism as it will always result in statehood. As those who are working independently will seek out others with similar ideas and goals and monopolize. Eventually creating societies and then surplanting typical ANCAP fantasy.

But I do believe that ANCAP's are one of the most important things when colonizing new lands, etc.

>that's one country you mongoloid.
Don't try to deflect the discussion away from my point. Zimbabwe is a specific example of them killing and/or persecuting their farmers, but the fact is that many african nations simply do not have farmers to grow crops for them. They are a self-defeating people that live on some of the most fertile land on the planet with a high abundance of easy game to catch and eat, yet they somehow still starve en mass somehow. How do economic systems relate to this in any way, shape, or form?

How about South Africa doing the exact same thing? Now theres two countries for this brainlet.

In the United States you can donate 100% of your money to charity and pay zero taxes. This includes a communist church. This communist church is also free to run fundraising events that are normally illegal or tightly regulated industries. (Catholic Bingo).

You are free to dedicate your life to communism and and can even supplement yourself with capitalist slave labor. You can also be selective in your membership, only people willing to work and donate 100% of their income can join.

You never will. You are communist because you are lazy, not because you want people to be richer. You let stainch capitalists like the Amish beat you at your own game using 19th century technology. It's embarrassing.

>capitalism kills way more people every year than socialism has.

Yeah, tell that to Venezuela.

You want to know what the problem with commodity fetishism is? If I create a demand curve and a supply curve, I can figure out the price of an item, and more importantly I can predict what will happen if supply or demand change, where supply and demand are quantizable, objective entities. It's not the be-all-end-all, but you can predict future prices with it.

If you I out the objective use-value of an item in terms of the labor used to produce it, "commodity fetishism" doesn't give me a method for figuring out from that what the exchange-value will be. It just posits a theory as to why they're different, without giving me any predictive ability.

lol.
10,000 years of humans trading
>where is the king?
>where is the monopoly
>in b4 paranoid conspiracy of brainlet ancom

Amazon is beating them. Amazon started with Bezos selling books online out of his garage.

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Great argument but shame about the shitty spelling.

Profit is motivation to produce and invent shit and work. Some people wil invent shit or work because they enjoy it, but if you want a lot of new shit fast, you need motivation. That is why capitalism has changed the world so fast.

Quality comedy thread op.
Amazed that you've yet to say "Well MY form of communism would work!"

meaning, "If i was in charge i'd be a flawless system...until somebody like Stalin stabs me in my sleep and takes power"

Ya see that requires a lot of work, something op doesn't want to do.

>And if I get no investors? Guess I'll starve.
Or eat your savings, which you gain by living below your means.

Op is probably larping, but still need these threads so people can learn how to debate communist fucks. It's not about changing the commie's mind, but the minds of those that are listening to the argument.

YOU are mongoloid you fucking leftard