Why does nobody appreciate the classics in the anime and manga fanbase? It's all about the latest flavor of the month or things that were popular in the last ten or so years.
If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old yet Sup Forums is almost always filled with discussions about things that are recent. It's not even the lack of discussion, it's the lack of awareness, there really isn't a lot of emphasis on the classics of manga and the seeds of what created the industry today. You could say this is because manga is relatively new but video games are as well and there is a great emphasis on respecting the classics.
Your average Manga fan doesn't even know who Osamu Tezuka is, hasn't read any of his works.
This includes people here who are the supposed hardcores. They don't read things like Lone Wolf and Cub, 20th Century boys, Kinnikuman, Ashita No Joe, Go Nagai's works and even fucking Golgo 13. Not that there isn't discussion about them but those threads and few and far between and usually get very little posts Basically, why are you such fucking plebs, respect the fucking classics
Because the English "fanbase" is mostly newcomers.
Jaxson Cox
What's a classic?
Kevin Bell
>classic >judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind
David Bailey
Then new anime and manga can also be classics, you just want to talk about old shit.
Easton Scott
I'll agree with most of what you have to say, but I do think 20th Century Boys and Ashita no Joe are pretty widely read outside of the super-casual audience.
Colton Allen
Because /lit/ are full of retards who like to feel self-important "discussing" old works which need no discussion. Any discussion of old manga works has been done to death and doesn't warrant any further discussion. It's also much less accessible to get into old works due to the literal limitations due to language barriers and physical media.
Thomas Jenkins
I'll go there if I need to be pretentious.
Nathaniel Hughes
How is /lit/ full of retards? It sounds like you just have an inferiority complex because you look at picture books full of scantily clad 13 year olds and they spend 1000's of hours reading and learning. Maybe if you picked up a fucking book about learning japanese, you'd be able to stop bitching about language barriers, you fuckin mongrel
Evan Gray
Ah ok so this is just a bait post. Thanks for the clarification friend.
Tyler Moore
>it's much less accessible to do this >hurr duur just spend several years learning an entire fucking language
Yes that's literally what less accessible means, you fucking dumbass. Typical /lit/ retard. Fuck off back to your own board and keep your circle jerk in check.
Asher Jenkins
Not really >Judged over a period of time Not saying Sup Forums should be any different but I wish people read the oldies. It's like if every one on Sup Forums only watched new movies and hadn't watched anything pre- 2000
Logan Torres
>Judged over a period of time You can judge last week and you will have a classic.
Levi Kelly
It's all about the flavor of the month shit.
Henry Murphy
There wasn't much at all to this medium even 25 years ago compared to today, to speak nothing of the thousands of years literature has had to sprout worldwide vs a couple decades in Japan. No shit it is limited in time; it hasn't existed in what could be said to be its modern form for even three decades. The two are not remotely equivocal.
As to why Sup Forums likes to talk about the latest stuff, it could be said that unlike in literature it actually is possible to see pretty much every anime remotely relevant or interesting to someone to ever exist. What do you do after that? Hang around for new stuff. Even if you want to discuss something old, if Sup Forums existed when it did, people were done talking about it already and it would have to be a notable series to get people to give enough of a fuck to say something about it.
Grayson Gray
It depends really. Anime was more of a hit or miss to me back then than nowadays. I liked Kimba as a child, and when I grew, I got into Black Jack and Cyborg 009, but was never able to get into other Tezuka other works that hard. Also >20th century boys >Presented as if it were in the level of the others. Fucking newfag.
Bentley Gonzalez
20th was pretty good but I could never not speedread 21th
James Price
All the threads I make about classics die Also when there's airing seasonal stuff of course that takes most attention
Jaxon Edwards
Anime and manga are a visual medium, modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage
Ancient texts are translated into modern English or something resembling it, so they can compete with modern works
Jonathan Turner
If Phoenix has been discussed to death it sure as hell hasn't been here.
That said, OP, meta threads like this are never productive and just bring out angry retards flinging shit at one another; if you want to talk about a classic, talk about it instead of starting threads this way.
Ryder Walker
They do, go to /m/. There was just a Space Adventure Cobra livewatch not long ago. If there were boards for other old genres they'd be used too, but there's no point posting about them here because they'd be kicked off the board by dragonball super threads before anyone interested found them.
Also, Tezuka just isn't that good. He's historically important, but most of his work is not high quality at all.
Carson Jenkins
Because anime is a commodity.
Kevin Smith
Too hard to get decent scans/buy
Jackson Peterson
>Tezuka just isn't that good you don't take in the context in which he made his works.
The opinion of faggot from the 2010s on Tezuka is trash and not worth the time.
Brandon Hughes
>if you want to talk about a classic They don't. They want to start a fight and jerk off over their superior taste.
Noah King
Something something death of the author
Cameron Edwards
>Cyborg 009 >Tezuka Dumbass
Jackson Myers
>expecting good things from a fanbase that owes 90% of its existence to Evangelion Western weebs never had a chance. Its a mixed bad because without the more pedestrian titles that people are obsessed with you wouldn't have access or interest in "Japanimation" as the older faggots called it and you would literally have to learn Japanese and import/visit to get anything relevant.
I for one appreciate having a dedicated manga section in the bookstore in the US, and anyone alive in the 90s or even 80s can remember how scant things use to be.
Jack Cook
I'm OP, you're probably right lad. I would consider 20th century boys as a classic at this point in time. It's one of the newer classics but it is old enough to be referred to as such
Easton Lee
>Not that there isn't discussion about them but those threads and few and far between and usually get very little posts No one wants Tezuka or Nagai threads to devolve into circlejerk generals, they're fine as is, stop being such a whiny bitch. >If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old I glanced through some of the threads, no one ever mentions Aristophanes. I'm guessing he's too low brow for /lit/ or some shit.
Leo Murphy
I think that the internet kind of makes discussing older material difficult and discouraged. As-is, the newest shit is at your fingertips, coming out at a constant stream. Advertising and communities discussing things (threads here, namely) show you exactly what's on offer, and you get to talk with like-minded people, theorize on what's coming next, ramble on about your waifu etc.
Old stuff isn't like that - look at some of the replies in this thread. People have so little faith in their own ability to talk about something that isn't current that they think it's worthless to even try. There's no expectations or waiting or theorizing or memeing, there's just a backlog.
And there's also the issue of just how incestuous anime is, too. Often people will watch something old and dismiss it as a bunch of boring cliches, because they've watched 5+ things inspired by it.
Josiah Young
Because people who have any semblance of respect for themselves or anything else don't browse Sup Forums
Tyler Brooks
The fact of the matter is that most of those "thousands years old" literate is kept alive due to academic interest. That's a vastly different situation to niche pop culture television culture from another country that only started seeing mainstream popularity in the last two decades, especially given the fact that widespread distribution of older unlocalized content has only become commonplace in the internet age.
Asher Sanders
Without some kind of motivation to make the effort to find the words which capture the experience of the work there will be no discussion, whether of recent or classic anime.
The works themselves change, evolve, just move on without obvious reason or end, as artists, producers and audiences react and are influenced by what came before and seek to add in that additional element which, perhaps in their eyes alone, is found lacking in the cannon. Thus art is fickle, mysterious, and often plainly inscrutable.
To many, classic anime feels this way.
The desire to speak of a work comes first from a non-verbal emotional connection with it and from the immediately subsequent impulse to render this non-verbal response in a language intelligible to others.
Which leads to what is constant in this universe of the Aesthetic about which we speak: that set of analytical tools, philosophical constructs and metaphor which is marshaled and deployed through the common language of the critique.
If art itself is fickle, mysterious and inscutable, critical language, which is initially a window into the narrow set of artistic works that move one, eventually becomes the key that can open an emotional response to creative works without any threshold emotional appeal, unlocking and effectively expanding the compass of the emotionally intelligible.
This emanative emotional appeal is what will drive appreciation of creative works, be they new or old.
Daniel Johnson
Sup Forums is just /e/ with Sup Forums-tier shitposting
Robert Taylor
So what does that make you?
Lucas Brooks
>modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage Is this bait?
Nicholas Thompson
I've already read and discussed the old stuff. I'm now more interested in new actual stuff I haven't read yet and the speculation regarding the direction of the work.
Austin Lewis
Some of us are, but we spend most of our time reading manga and watching aninme, instead of shitposting on Sup Forums. The most active users here follow one or two seasonal shows and spend the rest of the time here discussing them.
Lincoln Brown
>Anime and manga are a visual medium, modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage Then why do Toei movies from the 60s look better than any anime released for the past 17 years?
Landon Bennett
Several reasons. The way anime comes out means current stuff will pretty much always dominate discussion. There's always a new thing to talk about, and that tends to be more immediately engaging. Anime gets far more discussion than manga here for various reasons, so manga classics fare even worse. There was a Devilman dump the other day, but not a lot of discussion about it. Before late night anime started in the mid 90s the vast majority of anime was for kids. And a lot of people are funny about kids' stuff. Also sometimes nostalgiafags gush about something that just wasn't that good, which makes people doubt whether any "classics" are actually worth watching. (A lot of them are, but I sure don't trust you fags to tell me which ones.) Plus there's just momentum: Sup Forums doesn't discuss old shit, so people don't come here to discuss old shit.
Jaxson Reed
It has to be, nobody can be that dumb
Jaxon Garcia
Because there is nothing new to talk about with old works most of the time. That's the same reason why /vr/ is so dead even though it has some of the most popular games of all time in it.
Robert Cruz
That is bullshit reasoning. Sup Forums is full of people who have NEVER read the classics.99% of the people here haven't
Cooper Morgan
So are you saying that the reason why nobody on Sup Forums talks about classic anime and manga is that the classics have the same sort of inscrutability that classic literature has, but unlike /lit/, where the critical language to contextualize the work within one's understanding and to use in order to appreciate the work in both an analytical and in an emotional manner already exists and has for a long time, thus relieving them of the effort needed to find it, Sup Forums on the other hand must actively scout out the analogous critical language for its classics in order to have the same sort of discussion, and has no motivation to do so?
Jayden Hernandez
Golgo 13 is extremely repetitive and most of Nagai's works are complete garbage
Kayden Sullivan
B-but he kills the target with a tricky shot! Also Bill Clinton is in like 2 chapters! Why won't people talk about it all the time
Kayden Stewart
They are just examples, you simp
Samuel Morris
>>you gave bad examples >they are just examples Truly, you are a paragon of intellectual conversation.
Dylan Hernandez
Does anyone even agree on what "the classics" are? There seems to be much less agreement on what old stuff is actually good than there is in literature.
Oliver Torres
The point isn't your personal opinion on the work's listed. The point is that Manga readers do not respect their history. This is the problem I'm getting at, We don't appreciate the classics in the west. We don't discuss them enough to DON our own classics. We need to make charts and shit
Austin Bailey
If it's old and not that much discussed and I like it, it's a classic. If not, then it's not.
Anthony Davis
Because you're a stupid newfag.
Caleb Kelly
True. If you want to watch an old film or read an old book, rental services and libraries, very low cost and the works themselves are very contained. Older serialised manga and tv anime though? You have to spend like 500 dollarydoos to read/watch that shit legally, libraries will have 1 volume out of 28, there are no physical or digital rental services whatsoever, you won't find anything better than a low quality VHS transfer, torrents are dead, scans are pixelated and low res to the point of being unreadable...
Adrian Williams
>If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old
Yeah, badly.
Blake Johnson
What classic manga are you having trouble finding? Please tell me because I will try to help you
Joseph Cook
>The point is that Manga readers do not respect their history. It's not our history though. >We don't discuss them enough to DON our own classics. Chicken and the egg. No one discusses classics so there are no classics, so no one has any reason to read classics to join the discussion.
Nicholas Nelson
Fair point that Japanese Manga history isn't the same as Sup Forums's history. It is definitely a branch of it though
Benjamin Clark
>We need to make charts
Plenty have already been made. Just because you're new and haven't seen them yet doesn't mean they aren't out there. Here's one example. Now lurk more.
Ryder Sanchez
Literally nobody reads this shit. Also it sucks. There is no respect to be found on this board
David Sanchez
they aren't necessarily worth reading just because they are """"classics"""". 20thCB being the best example of this.
also in general, newer things are easier to discuss, because more people are reading them at the same time, even better if a new chapter just came out. also it's not like there are only "classics" and "new releases". inbetween there is a large body of work that people can read too. it really doesn't matter.
and really it's a good thing that people don't read something just so they can say they read all the classics. just read what you enjoy. out of the ones you mentioned, i only read 20CB, phoenix and black jack, although LWaC is in my backlog. that doesn't mean i don't read other old stuff (pic related).
Logan Diaz
I have never met even one person irl who read 20th Century boys, or anything by Urasawa, out of Sup Forums 2-4 specific anons. And Ive tried to find even one. Even Hi No Tori, you can find the books in libraries here, yet no one reads them.
Sebastian James
>Because /lit/ are full of retards who like to feel self-important "discussing" old works which need no discussion. > Any discussion of old manga works has been done to death and doesn't warrant any further discussion
A person does not need to be from /lit/ to know you're full of it. The fact that this line of logic is so prevalent here indicates that Sup Forums lacks a basic appreciation for art, and whatever messages they hold or impact they have, even in their own preferred medium. That's pretty sad, and it's not even consistent since we still have EVA threads. Maybe it's fair to say that Sup Forums is full of filthy casuals?
Sebastian Miller
maybe a couple have read Monster, but most of the time its just the anime from back then.
Juan Perez
>Literally nobody reads this shit >has JoJo, Hokuto No Ken and Ippo on the list
Grayson Smith
I don't think it is really. It's like expecting /ck/ to study the history of food. Sure it's relevant and interesting, but it's not necessary for someone with an interest in cooking and eating. Classics aren't merely old and good, they're thing that are historically relevant. If no one has read them they're not classics regardless of their quality.
Michael Lewis
manga takes skill to make where writing a shitty self masturbatory book requires zero skill
even hitler wrote a book
David Butler
Honest reason: because they are boring. Not trying to be edgy or anything. Just my personal opinion. Most of the old anime classics are, by the standard of today, boring. I 100% admit they are classics and paved the way for animation. But I cannot sit through them as I find them boring. And it's relatively normal to do so. Much of anime is an imitation of what was made before. Of course something made in 2010 by replicating what was made in 1970 is going to be more engaging. Will it be better? Maybe not. But it will be more exciting.
Henry Martin
fuck off cunt
Sebastian Morgan
>Of course something made in 2010 by replicating what was made in 1970 is going to be more engaging. I don't understand.
Bentley Martin
More specifically, it will be made to pander towards the current zeitgeist and taste of the current generation. It's constantly evolving, so it's an adapt or die situation.
Brayden Turner
the problem is there's just too much new stuff all the time
the anime/manga industry moves at an almost unreasonably fast pace Unless you happen to follow a series called Hunter x Hunter
Leo Peterson
The anime/manga fandom is just filled with plebeians who don't appreciate the medium or at in general and they just like cute/cool characters and scenarios different from those found in western media. The very idea of anime/manga fandom is ridiculous with so many different genres and levels of artistry, yet people with completely opposite tastes are thrown into the same bag where the tasteless majority dictates what is discussed and what is not. Then again, I don't see much of a point in trying to educate the masses.
Josiah Wood
Let the teenagers and kids and older people who just recently came in contact with Japanese entertainment media enjoy what they want.
Kevin King
Why don't you make threads about old works that you want to discuss with a topic that is actually worth discussing, instead of just the usual HEY GUYS I READ THIS OLD MANGA DID ANYONE ELSE EVER DO THAT that Sup Forums gets every day?
Daniel Baker
*who don't appreciate the medium or art in general
Adam Rivera
Because bored autistic people are bored that nobody joins into their specific boring autistic circlejerk, so being boring autistic people that they are, people like OP try to lure in more autistic people in the hopes of getting some new insights from other boring autistic people.
Andrew Hernandez
Pretty much, if you feel like trying some of the oldies, go for it, because it's a treasure trove of great stories. But don't make a campaign against the new things, because there are some gems here and there.
William Jackson
this. it basically comes down to this.
i guarantee you that the people here that have read at least 500+ manga have read at least SOME of the "classics". but nobody should feel obligated to read all of them just because they are "classics".
it's not like classics are strictly better than 90s and 00s manga. you can find good series everywhere.
Easton Lee
Fuck you for reminding me of Hunter X Hunter
Benjamin Cooper
Honestly, I think if OP made a plain, to the point thread about an old manga/anime, providing content himself even, he would have gotten no response the the thread would sink to the bottom without him bumping it regularly. I've seen it happen many times, and have also seen that flames about Sup Forums in general get the most potent responses.
If he wanted to talk about a show/comic very few here have watched, he would do like Fun-Fun user and keep posting threads until people would watch it just from being exposed to it existing so much.
Nathaniel Harris
Here's a non-anime example. Try and watch a very old western about cowboys. See how long it takes before anything interesting happens. Pay attention to how drown out the action scenes are. Try and make a metal note whenever something truly interesting happens and then count up to the next such moment. That movie was probably very engaging and exciting when it came out but now it's just painful. Same thing with anime.
Blake Davis
not that guy, but we're talking about manga here you autist. in manga it's almost the opposite. stories move at a breakneck speed and there aren't as many long arcs.
Austin Rogers
>Drifting Classroom Did they ever make it back to the world? I only read whatever I could find in the libraries, and they stop around the time the MC wanders out of the school
Gavin Robinson
You can apply the same thing to manga. Coupled with the fact that you have probably read a newer manga that dealt with the same subject but in a more exciting way older manga just does not have much appeal.
Samuel Hughes
I want to point out that this is specifically shonen manga. A lot of seinen is excluded And this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekiga Is never mentioned. GEKIGA deserves to be represented. I will bring it westward
Isaac Ramirez
Drawn out scenes are usually there to build tensions and make the bursts of action more impactful.
Having a story where something major happens every second desensitises you to the big moments, making them feel mundane.
Ayden James
I think it's amusing that you think of Sup Forums so highly as to think this place has any semblance of taste whatsoever. Truth be told, this place is filled with a bunch of normie shitters whose first experience with anime is from watching shit like Dragon Ball and Naruto. Sup Forums also barely gives a shit about manga in general, and it's why we might as well let Sup Forums be a festering shonen shithole and branch off with /ma/nga.
Caleb Taylor
>normie
Jace Bell
I'm lonely and old stuff is bad because nobody discuses it.
Aiden Barnes
Honestly I think this is just not true Aside from the art style difference the work of authors like Tezuka, Ishinomori, or Nagai really do not seem that different or out of place from modern works at all They basically laid the foundation so well that modern mangaka are still following their guidelines to this day
Jose Baker
Urasawa shit the bed so hard with the ending and sequel that it ruined it's stellar first half.
Jeremiah Garcia
So you are saying we need to start an university (department).
Leo Wright
I've seen polls done on here where it showed that nearly 40% of this board was 18 or under and had watched less than 50 anime. Also the majority of the board had only been on Sup Forums within the last 1-3 years and watching anime for about that long. Most of this board is extremely new and hasn't actually watched that much anime or read that much manga.
The portion of Sup Forums browsers that go through enough material to even sprout an interest in watching anything not current season is extremely small. They don't talk about anything old because they still haven't watched most of the highly regarded shows from the past 5 years, it makes no sense that they would suddenly want to go watch 80s shit when all they have ever watched was stuff that aired this year.
Basically: Newfags and people relatively new to anime&manga are the majority on this board and the people autistic enough to care about the "classics" are a very small group comparatively.
Brody Cooper
Most manga classics fall under /m/ territory, where it is talked about daily.
Kamen Rider, Getter Robo, Devilman, Cyborg 009, Astroboy. All /m/ even if they arent strictly mecha related.
Plus if you looked at the "classics" of Sup Forums which is much more Sup Forums's sister board compared to /lit/ , No one REALLY talks about Stan Lee's run on many Marvel books or read old dick tracy strips. Its mostly modern shit or early 2000 "classics" cause they're easier to read.
I will say Sup Forums is more "creator wise" than Sup Forums. They'll have threads blaming Sugar for ruining the industry or threads commemorating figures like Darwyn Cooke. The most I see Sup Forums talk about creators is calling Oda a hack or when there's a controversy like say a well known mangaka owning child porn.
Jacob Wood
>Why does nobody appreciate the classics in the anime and manga fanbase? So I take it this is your first day on Sup Forums
>Your average Manga fan doesn't even know who Osamu Tezuka is, hasn't read any of his works. You're completely delusional if you believe this. Tezuka is probably one of the most revered mangaka here on Sup Forums
>This includes people here who are the supposed hardcores. They don't read things like Lone Wolf and Cub, 20th Century boys, Kinnikuman, Ashita No Joe, Go Nagai's works and even fucking Golgo 13. Once more you're completely delusional if you think this. Go Nagai works like Devilman, Violence Jack, Mazinger, and Getter Robo get talked about here. Same with manga like 20th Century Boys (and Urasawa in general), Ashita no Joe, and Lone Wolf and Cub. I've seen Kinnikuman threads here occasionally and Golgo 13 will get talked about occasionally. I really don't know what to tell you except to try lurking more. It's not surprising that you'll find a few diamonds in the sea of shit that is Sup Forums
Jaxon Bell
Pro tip you won't find good discussion on anime here and if you do it's fucking rare. I have no life other than work so I'm constantly on here bored to death because there isn't really anything else to do.
Angel Roberts
Sure, find me a classic I can jack off to, though.
Asher Williams
Gekiga does get posted here every now and then. We had a thread just a few days ago. Just lurk more and quit whining.
Jace Gutierrez
This thread has turned out pretty well I think. This as well Okay, this post is really putting it into perspective, what the FUCK is wrong with Sup Forums?