Why does nobody appreciate the classics in the anime and manga fanbase?

Why does nobody appreciate the classics in the anime and manga fanbase?
It's all about the latest flavor of the month or things that were popular in the last ten or so years.

If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old yet Sup Forums is almost always filled with discussions about things that are recent.
It's not even the lack of discussion, it's the lack of awareness, there really isn't a lot of emphasis on the classics of manga and the seeds of what created the industry today.
You could say this is because manga is relatively new but video games are as well and there is a great emphasis on respecting the classics.

Your average Manga fan doesn't even know who Osamu Tezuka is, hasn't read any of his works.

This includes people here who are the supposed hardcores. They don't read things like Lone Wolf and Cub, 20th Century boys, Kinnikuman, Ashita No Joe, Go Nagai's works and even fucking Golgo 13.
Not that there isn't discussion about them but those threads and few and far between and usually get very little posts
Basically, why are you such fucking plebs, respect the fucking classics

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekiga
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Because the English "fanbase" is mostly newcomers.

What's a classic?

>classic
>judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind

Then new anime and manga can also be classics, you just want to talk about old shit.

I'll agree with most of what you have to say, but I do think 20th Century Boys and Ashita no Joe are pretty widely read outside of the super-casual audience.

Because /lit/ are full of retards who like to feel self-important "discussing" old works which need no discussion. Any discussion of old manga works has been done to death and doesn't warrant any further discussion. It's also much less accessible to get into old works due to the literal limitations due to language barriers and physical media.

I'll go there if I need to be pretentious.

How is /lit/ full of retards? It sounds like you just have an inferiority complex because you look at picture books full of scantily clad 13 year olds and they spend 1000's of hours reading and learning. Maybe if you picked up a fucking book about learning japanese, you'd be able to stop bitching about language barriers, you fuckin mongrel

Ah ok so this is just a bait post. Thanks for the clarification friend.

>it's much less accessible to do this
>hurr duur just spend several years learning an entire fucking language

Yes that's literally what less accessible means, you fucking dumbass. Typical /lit/ retard. Fuck off back to your own board and keep your circle jerk in check.

Not really
>Judged over a period of time
Not saying Sup Forums should be any different but I wish people read the oldies. It's like if every one on Sup Forums only watched new movies and hadn't watched anything pre- 2000

>Judged over a period of time
You can judge last week and you will have a classic.

It's all about the flavor of the month shit.

There wasn't much at all to this medium even 25 years ago compared to today, to speak nothing of the thousands of years literature has had to sprout worldwide vs a couple decades in Japan. No shit it is limited in time; it hasn't existed in what could be said to be its modern form for even three decades. The two are not remotely equivocal.

As to why Sup Forums likes to talk about the latest stuff, it could be said that unlike in literature it actually is possible to see pretty much every anime remotely relevant or interesting to someone to ever exist. What do you do after that? Hang around for new stuff. Even if you want to discuss something old, if Sup Forums existed when it did, people were done talking about it already and it would have to be a notable series to get people to give enough of a fuck to say something about it.

It depends really. Anime was more of a hit or miss to me back then than nowadays. I liked Kimba as a child, and when I grew, I got into Black Jack and Cyborg 009, but was never able to get into other Tezuka other works that hard.
Also
>20th century boys
>Presented as if it were in the level of the others.
Fucking newfag.

20th was pretty good but I could never not speedread 21th

All the threads I make about classics die
Also when there's airing seasonal stuff of course that takes most attention

Anime and manga are a visual medium, modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage

Ancient texts are translated into modern English or something resembling it, so they can compete with modern works

If Phoenix has been discussed to death it sure as hell hasn't been here.

That said, OP, meta threads like this are never productive and just bring out angry retards flinging shit at one another; if you want to talk about a classic, talk about it instead of starting threads this way.

They do, go to /m/. There was just a Space Adventure Cobra livewatch not long ago. If there were boards for other old genres they'd be used too, but there's no point posting about them here because they'd be kicked off the board by dragonball super threads before anyone interested found them.

Also, Tezuka just isn't that good. He's historically important, but most of his work is not high quality at all.

Because anime is a commodity.

Too hard to get decent scans/buy

>Tezuka just isn't that good
you don't take in the context in which he made his works.

The opinion of faggot from the 2010s on Tezuka is trash and not worth the time.

>if you want to talk about a classic
They don't. They want to start a fight and jerk off over their superior taste.

Something something death of the author

>Cyborg 009
>Tezuka
Dumbass

>expecting good things from a fanbase that owes 90% of its existence to Evangelion
Western weebs never had a chance. Its a mixed bad because without the more pedestrian titles that people are obsessed with you wouldn't have access or interest in "Japanimation" as the older faggots called it and you would literally have to learn Japanese and import/visit to get anything relevant.

I for one appreciate having a dedicated manga section in the bookstore in the US, and anyone alive in the 90s or even 80s can remember how scant things use to be.

I'm OP, you're probably right lad.
I would consider 20th century boys as a classic at this point in time. It's one of the newer classics but it is old enough to be referred to as such

>Not that there isn't discussion about them but those threads and few and far between and usually get very little posts
No one wants Tezuka or Nagai threads to devolve into circlejerk generals, they're fine as is, stop being such a whiny bitch.
>If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old
I glanced through some of the threads, no one ever mentions Aristophanes.
I'm guessing he's too low brow for /lit/ or some shit.

I think that the internet kind of makes discussing older material difficult and discouraged. As-is, the newest shit is at your fingertips, coming out at a constant stream. Advertising and communities discussing things (threads here, namely) show you exactly what's on offer, and you get to talk with like-minded people, theorize on what's coming next, ramble on about your waifu etc.

Old stuff isn't like that - look at some of the replies in this thread. People have so little faith in their own ability to talk about something that isn't current that they think it's worthless to even try. There's no expectations or waiting or theorizing or memeing, there's just a backlog.

And there's also the issue of just how incestuous anime is, too. Often people will watch something old and dismiss it as a bunch of boring cliches, because they've watched 5+ things inspired by it.

Because people who have any semblance of respect for themselves or anything else don't browse Sup Forums

The fact of the matter is that most of those "thousands years old" literate is kept alive due to academic interest. That's a vastly different situation to niche pop culture television culture from another country that only started seeing mainstream popularity in the last two decades, especially given the fact that widespread distribution of older unlocalized content has only become commonplace in the internet age.

Without some kind of motivation to make the effort to find the words which capture the experience of the work there will be no discussion, whether of recent or classic anime.

The works themselves change, evolve, just move on without obvious reason or end, as artists, producers and audiences react and are influenced by what came before and seek to add in that additional element which, perhaps in their eyes alone, is found lacking in the cannon. Thus art is fickle, mysterious, and often plainly inscrutable.

To many, classic anime feels this way.

The desire to speak of a work comes first from a non-verbal emotional connection with it and from the immediately subsequent impulse to render this non-verbal response in a language intelligible to others.

Which leads to what is constant in this universe of the Aesthetic about which we speak: that set of analytical tools, philosophical constructs and metaphor which is marshaled and deployed through the common language of the critique.

If art itself is fickle, mysterious and inscutable, critical language, which is initially a window into the narrow set of artistic works that move one, eventually becomes the key that can open an emotional response to creative works without any threshold emotional appeal, unlocking and effectively expanding the compass of the emotionally intelligible.

This emanative emotional appeal is what will drive appreciation of creative works, be they new or old.

Sup Forums is just /e/ with Sup Forums-tier shitposting

So what does that make you?

>modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage
Is this bait?

I've already read and discussed the old stuff. I'm now more interested in new actual stuff I haven't read yet and the speculation regarding the direction of the work.

Some of us are, but we spend most of our time reading manga and watching aninme, instead of shitposting on Sup Forums. The most active users here follow one or two seasonal shows and spend the rest of the time here discussing them.

>Anime and manga are a visual medium, modern techniques make old shit look like total garbage
Then why do Toei movies from the 60s look better than any anime released for the past 17 years?

Several reasons.
The way anime comes out means current stuff will pretty much always dominate discussion. There's always a new thing to talk about, and that tends to be more immediately engaging.
Anime gets far more discussion than manga here for various reasons, so manga classics fare even worse. There was a Devilman dump the other day, but not a lot of discussion about it.
Before late night anime started in the mid 90s the vast majority of anime was for kids. And a lot of people are funny about kids' stuff.
Also sometimes nostalgiafags gush about something that just wasn't that good, which makes people doubt whether any "classics" are actually worth watching. (A lot of them are, but I sure don't trust you fags to tell me which ones.)
Plus there's just momentum: Sup Forums doesn't discuss old shit, so people don't come here to discuss old shit.

It has to be, nobody can be that dumb

Because there is nothing new to talk about with old works most of the time. That's the same reason why /vr/ is so dead even though it has some of the most popular games of all time in it.

That is bullshit reasoning.
Sup Forums is full of people who have NEVER read the classics.99% of the people here haven't

So are you saying that the reason why nobody on Sup Forums talks about classic anime and manga is that the classics have the same sort of inscrutability that classic literature has, but unlike /lit/, where the critical language to contextualize the work within one's understanding and to use in order to appreciate the work in both an analytical and in an emotional manner already exists and has for a long time, thus relieving them of the effort needed to find it, Sup Forums on the other hand must actively scout out the analogous critical language for its classics in order to have the same sort of discussion, and has no motivation to do so?

Golgo 13 is extremely repetitive and most of Nagai's works are complete garbage

B-but he kills the target with a tricky shot! Also Bill Clinton is in like 2 chapters! Why won't people talk about it all the time

They are just examples, you simp

>>you gave bad examples
>they are just examples
Truly, you are a paragon of intellectual conversation.

Does anyone even agree on what "the classics" are? There seems to be much less agreement on what old stuff is actually good than there is in literature.

The point isn't your personal opinion on the work's listed. The point is that Manga readers do not respect their history.
This is the problem I'm getting at, We don't appreciate the classics in the west. We don't discuss them enough to DON our own classics. We need to make charts and shit

If it's old and not that much discussed and I like it, it's a classic. If not, then it's not.

Because you're a stupid newfag.

True. If you want to watch an old film or read an old book, rental services and libraries, very low cost and the works themselves are very contained. Older serialised manga and tv anime though? You have to spend like 500 dollarydoos to read/watch that shit legally, libraries will have 1 volume out of 28, there are no physical or digital rental services whatsoever, you won't find anything better than a low quality VHS transfer, torrents are dead, scans are pixelated and low res to the point of being unreadable...

>If you go to /lit/, they are constantly discussing literature 1000's of years old

Yeah, badly.

What classic manga are you having trouble finding? Please tell me because I will try to help you

>The point is that Manga readers do not respect their history.
It's not our history though.
>We don't discuss them enough to DON our own classics.
Chicken and the egg. No one discusses classics so there are no classics, so no one has any reason to read classics to join the discussion.

Fair point that Japanese Manga history isn't the same as Sup Forums's history.
It is definitely a branch of it though

>We need to make charts

Plenty have already been made. Just because you're new and haven't seen them yet doesn't mean they aren't out there. Here's one example. Now lurk more.

Literally nobody reads this shit. Also it sucks.
There is no respect to be found on this board

they aren't necessarily worth reading just because they are """"classics"""". 20thCB being the best example of this.

also in general, newer things are easier to discuss, because more people are reading them at the same time, even better if a new chapter just came out.
also it's not like there are only "classics" and "new releases". inbetween there is a large body of work that people can read too. it really doesn't matter.

and really it's a good thing that people don't read something just so they can say they read all the classics. just read what you enjoy.
out of the ones you mentioned, i only read 20CB, phoenix and black jack, although LWaC is in my backlog. that doesn't mean i don't read other old stuff (pic related).

I have never met even one person irl who read 20th Century boys, or anything by Urasawa, out of Sup Forums 2-4 specific anons. And Ive tried to find even one. Even Hi No Tori, you can find the books in libraries here, yet no one reads them.

>Because /lit/ are full of retards who like to feel self-important "discussing" old works which need no discussion.
> Any discussion of old manga works has been done to death and doesn't warrant any further discussion

A person does not need to be from /lit/ to know you're full of it. The fact that this line of logic is so prevalent here indicates that Sup Forums lacks a basic appreciation for art, and whatever messages they hold or impact they have, even in their own preferred medium. That's pretty sad, and it's not even consistent since we still have EVA threads. Maybe it's fair to say that Sup Forums is full of filthy casuals?

maybe a couple have read Monster, but most of the time its just the anime from back then.

>Literally nobody reads this shit
>has JoJo, Hokuto No Ken and Ippo on the list

I don't think it is really. It's like expecting /ck/ to study the history of food. Sure it's relevant and interesting, but it's not necessary for someone with an interest in cooking and eating.
Classics aren't merely old and good, they're thing that are historically relevant. If no one has read them they're not classics regardless of their quality.

manga takes skill to make where writing a shitty self masturbatory book requires zero skill

even hitler wrote a book

Honest reason: because they are boring.
Not trying to be edgy or anything. Just my personal opinion. Most of the old anime classics are, by the standard of today, boring. I 100% admit they are classics and paved the way for animation. But I cannot sit through them as I find them boring. And it's relatively normal to do so. Much of anime is an imitation of what was made before. Of course something made in 2010 by replicating what was made in 1970 is going to be more engaging. Will it be better? Maybe not. But it will be more exciting.

fuck off cunt

>Of course something made in 2010 by replicating what was made in 1970 is going to be more engaging.
I don't understand.

More specifically, it will be made to pander towards the current zeitgeist and taste of the current generation.
It's constantly evolving, so it's an adapt or die situation.

the problem is there's just too much new stuff all the time

the anime/manga industry moves at an almost unreasonably fast pace
Unless you happen to follow a series called Hunter x Hunter

The anime/manga fandom is just filled with plebeians who don't appreciate the medium or at in general and they just like cute/cool characters and scenarios different from those found in western media. The very idea of anime/manga fandom is ridiculous with so many different genres and levels of artistry, yet people with completely opposite tastes are thrown into the same bag where the tasteless majority dictates what is discussed and what is not.
Then again, I don't see much of a point in trying to educate the masses.

Let the teenagers and kids and older people who just recently came in contact with Japanese entertainment media enjoy what they want.

Why don't you make threads about old works that you want to discuss with a topic that is actually worth discussing, instead of just the usual HEY GUYS I READ THIS OLD MANGA DID ANYONE ELSE EVER DO THAT that Sup Forums gets every day?

*who don't appreciate the medium or art in general

Because bored autistic people are bored that nobody joins into their specific boring autistic circlejerk, so being boring autistic people that they are, people like OP try to lure in more autistic people in the hopes of getting some new insights from other boring autistic people.

Pretty much, if you feel like trying some of the oldies, go for it, because it's a treasure trove of great stories. But don't make a campaign against the new things, because there are some gems here and there.

this. it basically comes down to this.

i guarantee you that the people here that have read at least 500+ manga have read at least SOME of the "classics".
but nobody should feel obligated to read all of them just because they are "classics".

it's not like classics are strictly better than 90s and 00s manga. you can find good series everywhere.

Fuck you for reminding me of Hunter X Hunter

Honestly, I think if OP made a plain, to the point thread about an old manga/anime, providing content himself even, he would have gotten no response the the thread would sink to the bottom without him bumping it regularly. I've seen it happen many times, and have also seen that flames about Sup Forums in general get the most potent responses.

If he wanted to talk about a show/comic very few here have watched, he would do like Fun-Fun user and keep posting threads until people would watch it just from being exposed to it existing so much.

Here's a non-anime example. Try and watch a very old western about cowboys. See how long it takes before anything interesting happens. Pay attention to how drown out the action scenes are. Try and make a metal note whenever something truly interesting happens and then count up to the next such moment. That movie was probably very engaging and exciting when it came out but now it's just painful. Same thing with anime.

not that guy, but we're talking about manga here you autist.
in manga it's almost the opposite. stories move at a breakneck speed and there aren't as many long arcs.

>Drifting Classroom
Did they ever make it back to the world? I only read whatever I could find in the libraries, and they stop around the time the MC wanders out of the school

You can apply the same thing to manga. Coupled with the fact that you have probably read a newer manga that dealt with the same subject but in a more exciting way older manga just does not have much appeal.

I want to point out that this is specifically shonen manga.
A lot of seinen is excluded
And this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gekiga
Is never mentioned.
GEKIGA deserves to be represented. I will bring it westward

Drawn out scenes are usually there to build tensions and make the bursts of action more impactful.

Having a story where something major happens every second desensitises you to the big moments, making them feel mundane.

I think it's amusing that you think of Sup Forums so highly as to think this place has any semblance of taste whatsoever. Truth be told, this place is filled with a bunch of normie shitters whose first experience with anime is from watching shit like Dragon Ball and Naruto. Sup Forums also barely gives a shit about manga in general, and it's why we might as well let Sup Forums be a festering shonen shithole and branch off with /ma/nga.

>normie

I'm lonely and old stuff is bad because nobody discuses it.

Honestly I think this is just not true
Aside from the art style difference the work of authors like Tezuka, Ishinomori, or Nagai really do not seem that different or out of place from modern works at all
They basically laid the foundation so well that modern mangaka are still following their guidelines to this day

Urasawa shit the bed so hard with the ending and sequel that it ruined it's stellar first half.

So you are saying we need to start an university (department).

I've seen polls done on here where it showed that nearly 40% of this board was 18 or under and had watched less than 50 anime. Also the majority of the board had only been on Sup Forums within the last 1-3 years and watching anime for about that long. Most of this board is extremely new and hasn't actually watched that much anime or read that much manga.

The portion of Sup Forums browsers that go through enough material to even sprout an interest in watching anything not current season is extremely small. They don't talk about anything old because they still haven't watched most of the highly regarded shows from the past 5 years, it makes no sense that they would suddenly want to go watch 80s shit when all they have ever watched was stuff that aired this year.

Basically: Newfags and people relatively new to anime&manga are the majority on this board and the people autistic enough to care about the "classics" are a very small group comparatively.

Most manga classics fall under /m/ territory, where it is talked about daily.

Kamen Rider, Getter Robo, Devilman, Cyborg 009, Astroboy. All /m/ even if they arent strictly mecha related.

Plus if you looked at the "classics" of Sup Forums which is much more Sup Forums's sister board compared to /lit/ , No one REALLY talks about Stan Lee's run on many Marvel books or read old dick tracy strips. Its mostly modern shit or early 2000 "classics" cause they're easier to read.

I will say Sup Forums is more "creator wise" than Sup Forums. They'll have threads blaming Sugar for ruining the industry or threads commemorating figures like Darwyn Cooke. The most I see Sup Forums talk about creators is calling Oda a hack or when there's a controversy like say a well known mangaka owning child porn.

>Why does nobody appreciate the classics in the anime and manga fanbase?
So I take it this is your first day on Sup Forums

>Your average Manga fan doesn't even know who Osamu Tezuka is, hasn't read any of his works.
You're completely delusional if you believe this. Tezuka is probably one of the most revered mangaka here on Sup Forums

>This includes people here who are the supposed hardcores. They don't read things like Lone Wolf and Cub, 20th Century boys, Kinnikuman, Ashita No Joe, Go Nagai's works and even fucking Golgo 13.
Once more you're completely delusional if you think this. Go Nagai works like Devilman, Violence Jack, Mazinger, and Getter Robo get talked about here. Same with manga like 20th Century Boys (and Urasawa in general), Ashita no Joe, and Lone Wolf and Cub. I've seen Kinnikuman threads here occasionally and Golgo 13 will get talked about occasionally. I really don't know what to tell you except to try lurking more. It's not surprising that you'll find a few diamonds in the sea of shit that is Sup Forums

Pro tip you won't find good discussion on anime here and if you do it's fucking rare. I have no life other than work so I'm constantly on here bored to death because there isn't really anything else to do.

Sure, find me a classic I can jack off to, though.

Gekiga does get posted here every now and then. We had a thread just a few days ago. Just lurk more and quit whining.

This thread has turned out pretty well I think.
This as well
Okay, this post is really putting it into perspective, what the FUCK is wrong with Sup Forums?