PMMM

When QB says that a large amount of energy is produced when a soul gem is transformed into a grief seed, do you think this implies that any conversion of positive to negative magic is a similarly energy-producing reaction?

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I mean I didn't make this thread as an excuse to post homu if that's what you're thinking.

because that would be unethical.

addendum to OP: do you think the accumulation of curses is a conversion of positive to negative magic or the actual addition of negative magic to an unchanging sum of positive magic?

The incubators are around to harvest the energy from the soul gem when it morphs into a grief seed, and they also collect the used up grief seeds for some reason (maybe they were a source of energy too, like the grief cubes from the wraithverse; no idea if that is really the case though)

The mere expenditure of magic in fighting causes the accumulation of curses so I assumed it was converting positive magic to negative. It could also be that the expenditure of mental energy involved in fighting increases the quantity of the emotional equivalent of curses in the mind of the magical girl, which just adds curses to the gem - else where would the curses come from?

yes thank you I know this. The question is whether the magic within a soul gem is progressively converted to curses or whether it is simply overwhelmed by curses in some other way - like being replaced rather than directly converted.

There are two sources of negative magic that accumulate in soul gems: expenditure of magic by the magical girl and maintenance of the magical girl's body. Both of these are caused by the LOSS of positive magic: the question is, where is the negative magic that replaces it coming from?

Thinking about it I don't think it can actually be this because it never makes sense to say that the emotions of a magical girl effect the state of her magic - her magic is always the cause of her emotions because, in a sense, it IS her emotions.

Assuming the strictest possible identity between the mind of the magical girl and the state of her gem...where would curses come from if not from the conversion of positive magic to negative? When a girl expends magic, the total sum of curses in her gem increases - I think there are two primary ways you can understand what happens here.

1. Positive magic is simply converted to negative magic, and the total sum of magic doesn't change (or does depending on how you answer OP).

2. The absence of positive magic is, by default, commensurate with the presence of negative magic. Lost positive magic is therefore replaced by negative magic, but the latter is not converted from the former. If this is the case than the sum of energy within the gem obviously does not change, regardless of how you answer the OP (since conversion never occurs).

I don't think emotions really work on a scale of positive to negative, rather each emotion is its own thing. It's just that the opposed emotions of hope and despair are the only ones they've been able to use for their energy conversion. Emotions have different "states" analogous to states of matter, and the "phase change" from one state to another releases a large burst of energy, like how energy is released when matter goes from liquid to solid.
This is all complicated by Homura's use of love in Rebellion as a completely distinct source of power, but it seems it works somewhat similarly.

My take is that since soul gems run on hope, each expenditure of magic converts some of that hope to despair - but the sum of hope + despair remains constant, at least until the witch conversion.

The former is what I assumed but it raises the question in OP. The latter seems just as, if not more likely, but raises the question of why it happens/where the curses come from.

PMMM vs MSMM

Which is the proper title. I hear both often

The former is the localized title, the latter is the original. Either works.

I roughly agree with everything in your first response but it doesn't really answer my question (there may not be an explicit explanation in the series). The question is whether the energy-producing nature of the phase-change reaction applies JUST to the moment of transformation from gem to seed, or to all such conversions of positive to negative magic.

Your second response actually does answer the OP in the negative though. My question to you then would be: why do gems turn into seeds at all? Or is that something you don't think bears/needs explaining.

and a follow up question: why IS the conversion from gem to witch energy producing?

I've got a theory about how all of this works but I've sadly become confused about the ambiguity of how curse accumulation functions.

I guess there probably isn't an actual explanation for these things and it's as you said, the total sum of magic within the gem remains constant.

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In that case it doesn't actually matter whether positive magic is converted to or replaced by negative magic during the expenditure of the former, except that it raises the question of where the negative magic comes from if it's replaced rather than converted.

Interesting peculiarity: in either case the purification of a gem by a grief seed significantly increases the total amount of energy in the world, since the negative magic is not lost but also a more or less commensurate amount of positive magic replaces it.

In the conversion theory, the purification process seems a bit more difficult to explain, since the negative magic is removed but exists apart from the positive magic it supposedly converts to and from.

>the energy-producing nature of the phase-change reaction applies JUST to the moment of transformation from gem to seed
I think so. The way QB (briefly) explains it seems to imply that it's the phase change from hope to total despair itself that supplies the energy - he never shows any real interest in anything but that moment. To me, this raises the question of where they get their energy from once Madokami turns Earth into wraith town, but I don't think we have enough data to speculate on that tangent.

>why do gems turn into seeds at all?
I think because the change in form reflects the fundamental change in the girl's being. A magical girl is someone who has hope, that's the source of her energy. Even someone with a heavily corrupted soul gem still has a tiny amount of hope. Once every speck of hope is gone, however, they pass a sort of event horizon and turn into a completely different type of being, a witch, which is something composes 100% of despair. A soul gem can't exist without any hope by definition, so it turns into the equivalent version for despair.
This means that the phases of matter analogy doesn't fully apply, since hope and despair aren't really symmetrical - a soul gem can exist on a sliding scale from one to the other, but the level of despair doesn't produce any dramatic affects until it reaches the point where it becomes irrevocable.

Or the grief seeds just convert the despair back into hope, in exchange for taking additional despair into themselves. Becoming super-saturated in a sense, hence the danger of the seeds re-spawning if they absorb too much.

if we take this as an actual model for the positive to negative reaction and reverse it...the expenditure of positive magic neither converts to replaces positive magic within the gem to negative magic, but adds negative magic which has a kind of "priority" over positive magic. Purification is thus a kind of "stripping out" of rust or something else which accumulates on top of an unchanging whole of positive magic.

You're right that he only mentions the specific moment of change from gem to seed as an example of an energy-producing conversion. He does emphasize that humans produce more emotional energy over the course of their lives than they consume in other forms, and he cites particularly stark shifts from hope to despair as generally desirable, which made me think that maybe the energy-producing quality of the reaction applies to all such conversions.

Your explanation of the second question makes thematic and emotional sense (and is literally true) but doesn't actually explain the change in form, except when you say that a "gem can't exist without any hope" - but I don't know how well established that actually is.

But where does the additional despair come from? If they're converting magic, then the converted magic shouldn't be available for absorption, since it's now positive magic.

This explanation of course suffers from the same problem as the replacement theory, in that it raises the question of where the negative magic comes from and why the expenditure of positive magic incites it.

Actually I guess the purification could also be explained by the replacement theory, since it could be that the absence of positive magic is negative AND vice versa. Thus the removal of negative magic by grief seeds produces more positive energy within the gem as a natural consequence.

This, quite disappointingly, seems to fall closest in line to everything QB says.

And the explanation of where the positive and negative magic come from during the expenditure of positive magic or the purification of negative magic is probably just...magic?

In conclusion then, the answer to OP would be no because positive magic is never actually "converted" to negative magic - the only conversion which occurs is from a gem to a seed, which occurs for an unexplained reason and is energy producing for a similarly unexplained reason.

Expenditure of positive magic "produces" negative magic as a natural consequence of the way soul gems work, in that they always contain a sum of magical energy, and when some of that energy is expended, an equal amount of its opposite quality replaces it. This also functions as an explanation of the purification process, wherein the gem actually produces more positive to REPLACE the negative magic which is siphoned off.

How the gem produces positive and negative magic when negative or positive magic are removed from it remains unexplained, but this is likely also just "magic".

ah, this is extremely disappointing, to me. I had a much more exciting theory. But conversion theory cannot be the case since it can't easily explain either the purification process or the manifestation of magic in the real world. At the minimum, these processes don't actually reduce the amount of magic in the gem, but they do increase the total amount of energy in the world. So how would you explain this increase if these process are the result of a conversion from one type of magic to the other?

I guess you could also use the "it's magic" explanation here but on the opposite end of the reaction. The manifestation of magic in the real world just magically and inexplicably coincides with a conversion of positive to negative within the gem, as the manifestation of curses in a seed just magically coincides with a conversion of negative to positive within the gem. The energy produced is not a product of or cause of the conversion but is necessarily commensurate with it...for some reason.

This just seems less convincing to me because the show tries very hard to make it sound like a game of depletion and replenishing, language which fits better with the replacement theory.

The replacement theory also just better explains where the energy comes from though as a result of the necessary equilibrium between the two kinds of energy. The conversion theory version of this explanation locates the "magical" part of the reaction completely outside of the gem, which doesn't seem to make as much sense.

is this a homura thread

Like, I can buy that a soul gem magically replaces lost energy with an equal sum of its opposite, but why should the conversion of positive to negative or vice versa magically produce energy outside of the gem?

absolutely not, image dumping is not allowed on Sup Forums.

it extremely is a homu thread.

truly, I dig myself further into confusion and despair with each thought I have that attempts to understand this.

I think the replacement theory makes the most sense all things considered, but it is...not what I expected.

So I guess now I can attempt an explanation of why the conversion from gem to seed happens and is energy producing.

Magical girls have the ability to increase the total sum of negative magic within their gem with sheer willpower - in fact, it is precisely the exercising of will to manifest magic in the world which produces that increase.

They do not, however, have the ability to increase the total sum of positive magic in their gem in a similar way. So when the gem has no positive magic left to convert, the magical girl, in a very literal sense, is incapable of acting on her own feelings. The whole substance of her being is inexpressible, since she cannot manifest it in the world (and thereby replace it with positive magic to potentially recover).

Additionally, the girl's body requires positive magic to survive. When none is left in the gem, there is no longer a pretense of biological embodiment, and the meat puppet stops working.

Now, what happens to the subjective perspective of the girl (IE. her consciousness)? It was in an obscure sense "reflected" by her gem, but now the biological side of the reflection no longer exists.

Despite this, the actual material of her existence - her magical power - continues on. Presumably then, a grief seed represents the collapse of the consciousness of the girl into her gem, or its removal from her body and into her magic. This is why a witch takes on the personality of her former magical girl.

That was...easier than I expected.

Well if I had to trash conversion theory for this I guess I've..............broken even.

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Energy can be created in PMMM but it cannot be destroyed, is the moral of the story. And the locus for that creation is always the removal of some magic from a soul gem into the real world and its replacement with an equal amount of its opposite quality.

If positive magic were ever "converted" to negative magic or vice versa, the simultaneity of that conversion with a commensurate external manifestation of magic would be inexplicable.

as would the actual origin of that magic in the world, unless you take "the soul gem created energy outside of itself" as equally explanatory as "the soul gem projected magic within it into the external world and replenished its losses".

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sometimes you just want everything including yourself to die, and that's OK.

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feeling


great

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I demand pictures of magical girls (esp. homu) wearing sweaters with sleeves that go past their wrists as tribute, thanks.

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Guess I need to come up with something else to justify this thread.

Do you guys think Rebellion punishes Homura for her love of Madoka? Do you think it villifies her for it? Do you think her love is presented as monstrous or a moral transgression?

Would you describe Madoka as "suffering porn"? I know I've heard precure fans who hate Madoka describe it as this. Is the point of this whole thing just to watch girls suffer and revel in their suffering?

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I guess they bristle at the idea of girls being punished for hoping for something and acting on it. At the idea of that drive being somehow fundamentally mistaken or wrong-headed.

Seems like an open question to me whether the show actually says that it is or not.

More specifically, the problem is the idea of the girl's own agency being presented as invalid or self-destructive - QB's notion that "their wishes betrayed them".

Surely to a fan of magical girls specifically as a female power fantasy, that reading would be particularly insulting and insidious. The question is whether the show actually agrees with QB.

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i need to know why homu is so perfect...

its not suffering porn. i see it as more as a consequences of ones actions and deconstruction of the common magical girl character archetypes

also everyone is required to post one homu per post in this thread

The replacement of positive energy with negative is framed within the show by Sayaka and QB as a moral law that is, incidentally, reflected by the nature of the gems.

>i see it as more as a consequences of ones actions and deconstruction of the common magical girl character archetypes

Couldn't one just argue that this just amounts to suffering porn? I mean if the consequences of that deconstruction are a bunch of suffering, and that's supposed to be the central point of the show...

this idea is of course the foundation of the problem I think a lot of people, esp. those who like traditional magical girl shows, have with Madoka. I wonder though whether the show even advocates it as "really the case".

I don't know why I'm asking these rhetorical questions when I definitely think the answer is no. I guess because I want to hear other people's views.

Though I think I can guess where most views on Sup Forums will fall.

I have to think about what a witch actually is now I guess.

calling it suffering porn makes it seem more like the audience enjoys, or gets off to seeing these characters suffer. I sure as hell didnt. What made this show so memorable was just how the characters reacted and developed through out the show. this series had a perfect cast size which at least made you care about each of the magicas. Seeing homura develop from moemura was also a highlight

does the consciousness of a magical girl supervene over her body or her gem

The second half of "The Very Soil" has a really nice section on Rebellion, where the author breaks down several possibilities of what the titular rebellion might be against.

amazon.com/Very-Soil-Unauthorized-Critical-Puella/dp/1508800421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511928163&sr=8-1&keywords=the very soil

Personally, I think ultimately the Rebellion is against Madoka, and by extension, the conclusion of the TV series itself. Homura refuses to accept Madoka's self sacrifice, as she believes that Madoka has given enough and that her happiness should be the primary concern over everything else. So Homura rebels against her own goddess, taking control to ensure what she believes to be the best possible outcome will come to pass.

>calling it suffering porn makes it seem more like the audience enjoys, or gets off to seeing these characters suffer.

I suppose that's true. Do you think someone could fairly argue that there was a lot of glee surrounding Madoka as a "deconstruction" that basically amounted to glee at the idea of magical girls suffering though? Seems like a blurry line between enjoyment of character development and a novel idea vs. enjoyment of suffering and I'm not sure how I'd distinguish the two in this case.

I am writing a big thing about Rebellion and sincerely hope it's not ground already covered in that book.

I agree with this though!

>Homura refuses to accept Madoka's self sacrifice, as she believes that Madoka has given enough and that her happiness should be the primary concern over everything else. So Homura rebels against her own goddess, taking control to ensure what she believes to be the best possible outcome will come to pass.

the idea of Madoka as suffering porn bothers me because it was a very...empowering? show for me, and the idea that I find the exploitation of girls and the destruction of their agency empowering is obviously kind of confusing and does not feel great.

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pictured, me reading other people's opinions on a japanese cartoon online.

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to clarify this - does expressing shock and a desire to see more of the show when a magical girl suffers not functionally equivalent to "suffering porn", in that, while the suffering is not framed as a "good thing", it is framed as a thing which the viewer wants to see more of, and is used as a lure.

When Mami gets decapitated, in the audience's mind it's not wholly a grievous desecration of a sacred life, but also an exciting an unexpected tonal shift, and I think that's the problem, or the basic nature of the common "suffering porn" complaint.

I mean, if it were the former, people would stop watching - presumably nobody actually wants to suffer the loss of a loved one over and over again. The problem is that the suffering is treated as a lure, which undermines how important the absence and conquering of suffering is to people who are really into more traditional mahou shoujo.

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The whole point of the end of the show was Madoka overthrowing that system. Kyubey is a manipulative Mephistopheles figure, but Madoka's wish overcame even his ability and rewrote the universe to give everyone the happy ending they deserve. What's more empowering than Godhood?

Suffering is exciting when the thing suffering is not important to you, and so if the idea of magical girls as conquerors of despair is important to you, their suffering is probably less exciting and more crass and sadistic looking.

Reminder that QB is retarded and only turns people into magical girls and causes suffering because he doesn't understand the first law of thermodynamics.

ah well it's funny you should bring that up. Madoka had to disappear for her wish to work, and it was literally purchased with the suffering of entire timelines. Even in her moment of triumph, Madoka never breaks the rules - her wish remakes them, but it's not a wish bought with nothing but hope, which is what a traditional magical girl is all about - highlighting the importance and agency of girls by manifesting their hopes as magic which can effect the world.

this post was to highlight the experiential reality of why madoka might look like suffering porn but this one

expresses why the entire conceit might be disposed as a sadistic insult from a certain perspective.

That's a big part of what makes Madoka stand out. It's a more realistic take, one that says that just as despair is born from hope, so too is hope born from despair. It's a cycle, which is one of the many Buddhist allusions that make up the root of the series.

Interesting angle on the remaking but not breaking of the rules. You're right of course; Madoka kept some of Kyubey's system in place as she understands the merit of using it to stave off entropy. She only removed the witch aspect, opting for the less efficient but far more human Wraith enemy system instead. This changes a number of things, most important of all making magical girl teams viable as Wraiths drop man healing items instead of just one grief seed to be competed over. It's less efficient for the universe but it's good enough.

What do you mean by this? As I understand it, magic in PMMM breaks the second law by breaking the first law.

Whether or not it's realistic isn't really the point of contention though. The question is whether...it is as empowering and respectful of the agency of its characters as something like Precure is.

I feel one way but I can seem to provide a lot of arguments for why it's actually the other.

And I think it's pretty easy to see how, to someone for whom traditional magical girl stories were important, Madoka and the reactions to it would be deeply upsetting and insulting.

If I remember correctly, QB said he was making magical girls because energy in the universe was running out. But you can't destroy energy.

Like, if your answer to this is "no, but that's precisely the point", then I don't think that says great things about you (me?) or the show.

In the end, Madoka takes back agency over the whole system. Whereas the girls had none at all and were subjected to an existence of utter despair governed by a demon who told half-truths and concealed critical information, now those girls don't need to be lied to since despair and transformation aren't a factor for Kyubey. Whereas Kyubey was previously a manipulator, now he's more of a facilitator.

What makes Rebellion so tragic is that Homura spits directly in the face of this and takes all agency for herself. She makes open mockery of the other girls and effectively locks the whole universe in a cage purely for her own selfish gain. There's a reason it's considered a tragedy.

The universe is fated to decay and be destroyed. It's not about energy disappearing, it's about breaking down from its current form. Kyubey is trying to preserve the longevity of the universe.

You can't destroy it, but you can convert it to forms unavailable for work, which is kind of how the second law works, right?

It seems I misunderstood what he said. Nevermind then.

It doesn't really punish her for it. If anything her love for Madoka will probably be her salvation, especially when you compare it to the plot of "Faust."

>In the end, Madoka takes back agency over the whole system.

Well, Madoka changes the system because people are suffering from it and she wants to rectify it, which is really just a logical extension of every wish any magical girl has ever or will ever make: a wish for something to be other than it is. She definitely exercises agency in a certain sense, and it is not punished in the same way that the wishes of other girls are punished. Do you think this redeems the suffering of the other girls, or more on subject, do you think it means that the depiction of their suffering was not as exploitative and was actually ultimately respectful of their agency?


I think your read on Rebellion is pretty interesting and it is very different than my own. So the tragedy of Rebellion for you is primarily in the position it places the magical girls other than Homura?

Do you think Homu doesn't suffer at the end of Rebellion then?