Determinists claim that everything in the Universe is predetermined and that free will does not exist, but do they genuinely believe that? If that's what they honestly believe, then how can they at the same time make moral judgements about rapists, murderers etc? If determinism is real, then a serial killer should not be blamed for what he was predetermined to do, because he had no choice. It could not be his own choice to kill all those people, since free will does not exist. He was destined to do it, so how can you, as a determinist, blame him? Blaming someone who cannot make his own decisions does not make sense.
I've met many people who believe in determinism, yet, each and every one of them have morals and make moral judgements on other people. They are extremely self-contradictory, to the point of what I view to be blatant dishonesty. I do not think that they genuinely believe in determinism, since they don't act like it. They most likely just say it in an attempt to sound smart.
So, do we have any genuine determinists here on Sup Forums? Maybe you could explain this to me. Have I misunderstood something?
DISCLAIMER: I am an atheist. Believing in free will is not the same as believing in God.
he is not, he is attracted to busty well developed females like Stormy or Karen McDougal
Camden Young
You've described fatalism, not determinism. Not a particularly large difference, but there is one.
Brody Thompson
Okay, explain it to me.
Carter Jones
Aversion to killing eachother is what lead to you existing. Belief in determinism doesn't mean you can't have morals. Everyone acts like a determinist, it's impossible not to
March For Our Lives is a recruiting operation for Antifa.
Kids were being distributed anti-white, anti-cop propaganda at the event. The deep state is now trying to swell its Alt-Left paramilitary group ranks with underage kids. SPREAD THIS INFO EVERYWHERE.
>What this means: THE DEEP STATE IS TRYING TO GET KIDS TO MURDER WHITE PEOPLE AND POLITICAL DISSIDENTS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
>Science and religion are enemies Both Physics and Christianity agree that determinism is a load of crap.
Jeremiah Robinson
Watch the movie or read the comic of Watchmen. The character of Doctor Manhattan is the embodiment of determinism and there's a scene where another character calls him out for judging when he does nothing to stop what he calls out as wrong.
Michael Carter
What I meant was, why do you make moral judgements if you know that people can't make their own decisions and thus aren't responsible for their actions? Why do you judge people for things that are out of their control? Why do you hold grudges against anyone if you know nothing is their own fault? If I believed that nobody could make their own decisions, then I would have no reason to hold grudges against them or blame them for what they do.
Camden Anderson
Physics doesn't disprove determinism
Jordan Young
I don't choose to make moral judgements, it's just the result of evolution and environment etc. Understanding determinism doesn't entirely rewire your brain.
Nathan Clark
If the action is deterministic, then so is the judgement. Free will makes no difference. People seem like they have free will, and that is good enough for judgement to exist.
Brandon Baker
>Determinists claim that everything in the Universe is predetermined no it doesn't you somali nigger
Blake Martinez
Except for quantum theory and everything to do with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
Alexander Allen
But as a determinist, you would always know how pointless it is to make moral judgements on people who don't have free will. Knowing this, why do you still do it? It's not as if you forget the "fact" that people aren't in control of their own actions. You always know it, but still make moral judgements and hold grudges. Seems really contradictory to me.
Colton Harris
Who says I do? Anyway, like I said. Understanding it doesn't entirely rewire your brain, whatever circuitry is required to formulate a moral judgement still exists within me (probably). Having morals is a also a result of determinism and doesn't contradict anything desu
Andrew Clark
>no free will Clearly antichrist niggery , sage and abort
Ryder Adams
How does quantum theory disprove anything? We can't observe tiny shit because it gets knocked around by photons? What's random about that
Eli Bennett
I determined I would love it if she pooped on me.
Daniel Price
As a determinist I would know how important it is for me to make moral judgements and punishments. Because my actions determine the future. How can free will believers still judge people and punish people if they know anything they do doesnt matter since everyone can just do whatever they want randomly?
Brandon Sanchez
Where's the other picture of that same girl (or is this a cosplay?) looking glum while feeding pidgeons? She was wearing a suicide solace shirt and a milsurp jacket I think.
Sebastian Evans
>Who says I do? All humans do.
I don't think you believe in determinism 100%. If you did, you'd automatically stop caring about morals, since they'd be completely meaningless to you. I don't buy it.
Aiden Hernandez
Who says I care about morals? The only reason I don't kill people is because I know it's likely to make my life miserable
Luke Turner
>don't make judgments on this loaded dice for always rolling 1 Nah. They are what they are. And if they happen to be predisposed to bad outcomes, into the trash they go.
March For Our Lives is a recruiting operation for Antifa.
Kids were being distributed anti-white, anti-cop propaganda at the event. The deep state is now trying to swell its Alt-Left paramilitary group ranks with underage kids. SPREAD THIS INFO EVERYWHERE.
>What this means: THE DEEP STATE IS TRYING TO GET KIDS TO MURDER WHITE PEOPLE AND POLITICAL DISSIDENTS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
_______________________
SES (Senior Executive Service): an army of no-background check required for the hire executives with access to ALL INTELLIGENCE, who nobody knows how much they make (and they are the most well paid federal employees there are), that the POTUS CANNOT FIRE. This right here, those 10000 parasites are a very important part of the deep state.
I believe your circumstances are predetermined but not how you react to them
Nathan Myers
Right, then I'm a fatalist
Jason Sanchez
>Based on everything we know, quantum particles behave randomly. >Therefore they behave randomly. >Because there's no way there could be some other explanation in the giant (possibly infinite) pool of information that we don't know. I fucking hate arrogant physicists who think they know shit about shit until they're proven wrong the next week. It makes almost no sense to claim particles behave randomly just because we don't understand them.
Josiah Sanders
>The only reason I don't kill people is because I know it's likely to make my life miserable Now you're talking like someone with free will. No, according to you, the only reason you don't kill people is because you weren't predetermined to. You don't decide whether you kill people or not.
Ian Cruz
K
Easton Johnson
a'ight then that's a better way to phrase what I meant to say
Charles Ross
Look, young nigger. A determinist system is one where the kernel procedure calls have a clearly defined hierarchy and there is no out of order execution in the processor core. Basically it's a double nigger, however it's so predictable that it's ideal for real-time operating systems , and makes of the computer more or less a robot. So it's a triple nigger, and if we add you we get a quadruple nigger.
Determinists are unironically faggots. They don’t see anything wrong with degenerate behavior because “muh will isn’t strong enough” to stop sucking dick and neither is that murderer’s, thief’s, and so forth. Spare me of your problems and end your life early because your suicide is inevitable as well.
James Morris
Choice is a meme. That user is choosing the most logical course of action given the parameters of society. It isn't really a choice.
Logan Carter
I've been drifting away from the topic over the past couple years, not on point y'know
Jayden Jackson
If determinism isn't real and everything is decided by the roll of a dice how is that still free will?
Caleb Campbell
How. Is. That. Not. A. Fucking. Choice.
Aiden Gutierrez
You misunderstand it if that's your opinion. You can think degeneracy is abhorrent and not believe in free will
Jose Ross
The free will meme makes it easier for chads and staceys to feel good about their success, while simultaneously hating betas with a passion - and feeling weird around faceberg type betas.
Lucas Gonzalez
He means 'choosing' the reason he did what he did depends on his environment, past history/upbringing, laws of the Universe and existing
Ian Reyes
Determinism is just a particular case of physicalism. Although modern physics (at least quantum physics half of it) does away with rigid determinism, it replaces it with pure randomness, that is equally incompatible with moral reasoning. After all, if murderer acted because of some random fluctuation in his head, it is also not "his" quilt. The problem does not come from determinism but because we have two inherently incompatible views of world - descriptive and subjective/value based. This dichotomy cannot be resolved logically. The only way out is pure practical - just act like society is always acted - explaining everything with Gods will or physical theories but at the same time continue with punishing criminals and judging moral behavior. It works reasonably well so there is no practical need for logically coherent moral theory. FYI: the paradox exists in rational religion as well. If God is omnipotent, then logically human behavior should not be judged because humans are not free.
Kevin Torres
same reason people dont kill themselves even if they know life is meaningless. youre still bound by your instincts
Nolan Flores
The uncertainty principle basically means there's a limit to sampling. It's closer to the Nyquist Theorem than chaos theory.
I get what he meant. I was just emphasizing that it’s still a choice. You could have been told all your life by a loudspeaker next to your ear that murdering someone is wrong but then you go do it. It’s a choice. Just as someone chooses not to murder in a culture where murder isn’t morally apprehensive as others. Because you may be inclined more one way or the other due to upbringing, evnriontmenf, universe, doesn’t mean it’s not a choice.
Blake Allen
Environment*
Jonathan Gray
More like: >wow you suck at math >so you're saying ALL girls suck at math? you misogynistic asshole? >to make up for this inequality caused by misogynists like you we need moar scholarships for wimminz and wimminz isshoes.
Matthew Morris
It's not a choice, literally everything preceeding the murder is what lead to it's happening
Robert Cooper
Hook yourself up to a computer monitoring your brain and it'll know what you'll do before you've even 'thought' of doing it
Wyatt Reyes
Everyone is Pure Consciousness, which is INFINITE AND ETERNAL, experiencing life in a temporary human form. You can call Pure Consciousness 'God' if you want, but I don't, because the word 'God' has limiting religious connotations that I would rather avoid. Pure Consciousness has free will, but when it assumes temporary human forms (which are us), it experiences predetermined lives. Everything you experience in your life (right down to the most trivial details) was chosen by your true self, Pure Consciousness. Even when some guy on the street punches you in the face. You chose that for whatever reason. So at the physical level of 'reality', there is no free will. But at the most fundamental level of 'reality', there is free will. So in other words, we do not have free will in a relative sense, but we DO have free will in the absolute sense.
Time is an illusion, just like space, solidity and EVERYTHING ELSE BESIDES PURE CONSCIOUSNESS. When you watch a DVD movie, the entire movie is on that disc and the part of the movie you watch depends on what you do with your remote. What we call 'reality' is kind of like that in the sense that the 'past', the 'present' and the 'future' are ALL happening at the same time and the part of it you experience (i.e. the 'past', the 'present' and the 'future') and the speed you experience it at (i.e. slow-motion and fast-forward) depends on how your mind (i.e. the remote) decodes it. You can also rewind the movie (i.e. go into the 'past') and go into the 'future' by fast-forwarding the movie. The sub-conscious part of your mind actually processes time flowing both 'forward' AND 'backward' SIMULTANEOUSLY, but the conscious part of your mind only processes time flowing 'forward'.
"You didn't come here to make the choice, you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you made it."
what we all have is a very strong illusion of self-will / illusion of choice
your self-awareness is also a strong illusion what is considered "random" is actually "random for all intents and purposes" because in truth it is all deterministic
>thinks morals prove anything there is no such thing as absolute morals no such thing as absolute anything we all use moral relativism to function as primates
>do we have any 'genuine' determinists here no true scotsman fallacy u stupid faggot
>determinism means killer should not be blamed correct, but since we all prefer to live without killers running around, we promote the rule of law and no delusional religious idiot will agree anyway, so we blame everyone for what they had no choice but to do anyway, not having any choice about that either
you fail to see the holes in your logic when choice is an illusion, every single thought, feeling, etc. is as solidly pre-determined as a giant bulldozer driving over your stupid body
at no point can your brain cells function in a way that is chemically/physically impossible
read that again
YOUR BRAIN CELLS ONLY FUNCTION AS THEY ARE ABLE
neurology is a large unknown area for you I guess did you think braincells were magical? did you think you could change your brain cells by thinking at them
ha you can't change a SINGLE FUCKING CELL anywhere in your body by strength of will or thinking or whatever "feels" you "pray" or what
>sweden oh you poor fucking retard those muslims gonna kill u all and you are here dicking with me instead fuck you
I want to add we still punish him because that causes less murders. Even if it was predetermined. Determinism still believes in cause and effect.
Andrew Martinez
lol fucking hell you're a brainlet. good news is you didn't choose to be this stupid, it was pre-determined.
Luis Johnson
>tfw biologist. >Learned enough to know the universe is basically deterministic. >Even super complex things are deterministic is you go deep enough. >But if God exists then free will must exist...
Should I become a Christian again?
Levi Rivera
Let's say I'm at a store and there are two identical objects. One is free and one costs money. Naturally, I take the free one.
Would you say that I exercised free will in my decision making process, or would you say that the outcome was predetermined before I ever walked into the store?
Easton Morris
Free will is an illusion but it's one that serves a useful purpose from an evolutionary standpoint. As for the issue of moral blame for serial killers and so on, I don't see the contradiction. Free will isn't required for something to be bad. Consider pedophilia - all the evidence says it's not something people choose, just like homosexuality. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't lock up pedophiles to protect children. In fact we should feel compassion for them because they didn't choose to be born with their mental illness. But we should still judge the fuck out of them, at least the ones who actually harm children.
Kayden Collins
I'm not a determenist myself, but I see no dishonesty in locking up a murderer. It depends on how you view the practice of imprisonment. If it's for punishment, I guess you have a point, I prefer to see it as safekeeping of the people. In that case yes the killer wouldn't be responsible, but it still makes sense to lock him up, so he can't hurt others.
Elijah Diaz
This is a meaningless question on its own. Like is God real or do we live in simulation. Give me a single situation where the fact that the world is/isn't deterministic will be a decider?
Lucas Reed
Even if free will doesn't exist, I still think I choose to perform any given action, like calling a Swede a fag. Even though I am destined to call all swedes fags, I still thought I made a conscious decision, ergo, I should be punished for the decision I thought I made.
Jordan Thompson
>if God exists then free will must exist... Not true. Determinism becomes fatalism, in that case
Levi Wood
Nice argument loltard
Nathaniel Davis
Sounds psuesosciency but I’ll look into it. It’s possible our thoughts are being thought milliseconds before we realize it. But I’d be very surprised if it was anything more damning than that.
Evan Russell
>not something people choose >all the evidence I guess we should just trust you. Look up rates of homosexuality in adoptive kids of gay couples and say it's not most likely a choice
Jackson Morales
Your brain is just a bunch of neurons and electrical signals. On some level it's just chemistry and physics going on in there. So tell me how it can be anything but deterministic. If that makes you rethink your view of morality then so be it, but what we call "morality" is just a set of evolved instincts, just like the illusion of free will. Even if free will is an illusion, it's a useful one.
David Allen
>Can you measure all probabilities and determine the future of the universe? I know people are trying. >Does that make the universe deterministic? If they're successful, why not?
>you were too stupid to understand all the other clear arguments >I should waste time trying to help you understand rather than just tell you how stupid you are. Nice logical deduction, brainlet.
Elijah Moore
why are the shill$ so active right now?
can't be the SES stuff, who gives a fuck, it's already sorted out.
Zachary Cook
Free will because you had the opportunity to make at least 1 other decision along with others (not buy anything, take both, buy another product completely...)
Justin Russell
Having a weak link to your subconscious is not a philosophical excuse, it's just a sign of unworked barbarism.
Levi Miller
theres no difference between determinism and nondeterminism , any experiment will yield the exact same result in a deterministic and nondeterministic universe .
Shouldn't be too hard to find the actual study but eh, I'm lazy
Kayden Fisher
Unworked barbarian, just as assumed
Cooper Torres
At least you sorta made an argument finally. I’ll take it.
Matthew Flores
Irrelevant. I think the easiest argument is the following: >you make choices with your brain >you don't choose your brain If we had free will, we'd all be perfect chad geniuses.
Lincoln Cruz
I don't think they do. They justify imprisonment being the best method of keeping dangerous people not murdering etc.
Connor Perez
Even if environmental factors play a role in addition to genetics, that doesn't mean it's a choice in the sense of free will. If a kid who grows up eating lead paint is retarded, that doesn't mean the kid consciously intended to become retarded.
Cooper Rodriguez
You can but you'd need a complete knowledge and understanding of absolutely every aspect of the Universe. On small scales sure, we do it all the time
Jaxon Collins
>If determinism is real, then a serial killer should not be blamed for what he was predetermined to do, because he had no choice.
We are predetermined to condemn the serial killer. Free will is an illusion but this doesn't change anything. You can still live your life as though free will is real.
Connor Hughes
“Predict” this isn’t sounding too damning user but I’ll look into it. Thanks for brining it up.
>there is no such thing as absolute morals And at no point did I say that, retard. I was asking why determinists make moral judgements despite knowing that nobody is responsible for his own decisions.
>no true scotsman fallacy u stupid faggot The question "Do we have any genuine determinists here on Sup Forums" is not a fucking no true scotsman fallacy.
>since we all prefer to live without killers running around, we promote the rule of law You're making it sound like it's your own decision. Be a bit more consistent, please.
>oh you poor fucking retard >those muslims gonna kill u all >and you are here dicking with me instead >fuck you Wow, why so upset at a predetermined being who can't make his own decisions?
Jason Roberts
You're forgetting the genetic component to aggression and violence. For example, dogs can be bred for temperment. We can breed dogs to be nice like golden retrievers, or we can breed them to be aggressive like the niggerbull. It's not a stretch to extend this line of thinking to humans. What's to say the murderer didn't kill because of a more active stress hormone gland?
Hunter Johnson
>free will is an illusion >jeebus flag uhhh
Thomas Williams
Nice digits
Matthew Brooks
Just picked a random flag, senpai.
John Ross
Well idiot this doesnt mean you shouldnt punish them. Imagine if there were no punishments for stealing; it doesnt matter at all whether the world is determinate at all for law
Dylan Perry
pls respond
Cameron Howard
I don't make moral judgements about pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc., on an intellectual or philosophical level. On a visceral level it's like a twitch, it just happens and your metaphysics don't come into it.
Christian Lewis
just because they essentially "have no choice" does not mean they get to be free of the consequences of their actions your rigorous brainlet
Caleb Green
Why are determinists running around in circles. >free will, it’s an evolutionary trick >it’s an illusion but a comforting one >we just think we have free will
