Serious Fate thread

Serious Fate thread. No waifu faggotry or powerlevel faggotry. No trap discussion or any of that.No loli's or prisim illya Discuss only the plot of all fate related media and the philosophy behind fate. If you cannot abide by these rules leave

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=rowG3uiCC00
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

...

Also no gilgamseh either. Brings out the autists

The three routes of Fate Stay/Night can almost be seen as a trip from the Ideal end to a bit closer to the Cynic's side of theSliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism. Many fans describe it as akin to the journey from child to man.

In Fate, Shirou remains a child in many ways, facing the future with his ideals unexamined and uncompromising. His love for Saber is a veryFairytalelike thing; indeed, in later remakes they are given a distant, but very fairytale like ending.

The plot of Fate is that Seiba is cute! CUTE!

In Unlimited Blade works, we see a world view many would see as young adult— the view of a teenager who wants both the ideal and reality. Even though he's been shown the faults in his hero of justice ideal, he decides to pursue it anyway— a struggle, to be sure. Here, Rin and her Cynicism serve to balance his idealism.

Please leave
In Heaven's Feel, reality and Sakura drive Shirou toward a more adult viewpoint. Here we see him (as acertain tiger once suggested) holding fast to what he can, and compromising when he must. This is more mature than he can bring himself to be in the other ends. His father was right, you can't save everyone— and so he will save what is important to him.

Many have noted the fact that Shirou doesn't place much value on his own life. In fact, it is this that allows him his amazing use of projection magic.

But the three routes also show a change in this. In Fate, Shirou's ideal remains, as does his selflessness. He has the naive devotion of a fairytale hero, and it earns him (at best) a distant, fairytale, dreamlike ending with Arturia

Prism Illya is still Fate, faggot. All the more after they enter the parallel world

No it is not
In Unlimited Blade Works, we see a Shirou who is less naive, but still clings to his ideal. In other words, what he experiences grants him enough self-awareness to acknowledge reality— and be stubborn in the face of it. Indeed, it is likely that here, Rin will be the "adult" in the relationship.

Finally, Heaven's Feel. While there is no doubt that Shirou is Sakura's hero here, we also see him asserting something he wants. In the better endings to Feel, Shirou puts Sakura's well being before his dream, before anything else. This is not merely limiting his dream to just being Sakura's hero. This is decidinghe wants her. A selfish desire, even if his love drives him to great heroism— but that's actually the point.

While Shirou does noble things in the other routes, it is also there that most events that cause much of his labeling as aCanon Sueand/orThe Scrappycome in. It's why Anime Shirou is one of the least liked versions— he's mainly based on Fate route, the one where he gets the least development. But by Heaven's Feel True End, we see a Shirou who can say, "No. I want Sakura to live." This does not doom him. It redeems him— asserting a selfish desire gives him a focus. Nor does it destroy his Projection ability— he can now direct his selflessness to something (and someone) he values, making him not a boy with a vague ideal but a man with a true cause— and a stunning skill to back it.

Umu!

Personally, I am amused at a great number of the interpretations of Shirou. Many have ascribed to the viewpoint that the Fate -> Unlimited Blade Works -> Heaven's Feel route progression shows Shirou's development as a person. The above analysis entries describe it in great detail.

A counterpoint that it seems not many have considered: Perhaps the three routes show the slow slide of the determined selfless idealist (a development end-goal of a great number of philosophical and religious systems) to a selfish cynic (the "base state" of humanity according to many philosophical and religious systems.)

In the Fate route, Shirou refuses to let go of his ideals, and his love for Saber. Shirou faces down Angra Mainyu, the personification of All the World's Evils, with nothing more then sheer willpower. His heart enters pure, and emerges untainted, despite witnessing all the ugliness and hatred humans are capable of. He refuses to drown in his ideals, and in the end manages to reach the Everdistant Utopia, reuniting with Arturia in Avalon.

What the distant finale means is that, despite everything the world could throw at him, Shirou emerged unscathed. He lived his ideals as best he could, and grasped his reward by entering Utopia (The absolute endgoal of every religion ever: To cast off sin, and be allowed into heaven). Shirou accomplishes this, and yet Fate/Shirou is cast as being the least developed of the three.

Okita a best

Please go away.
In Unlimited Blade Works, Shirou's ideals begin to waver. He begins to develop an ego to supplant the super ego he had been operating primarily on. In this route, Shirou does not face any true and major tests of his ideals. He is never plunged into the muck of the grail, which I doubt UBW/Shirou could have survived. This Shirou begins to yearn, his selflessness begins to slip. He wants everyone to be happy, but he also wants Rin (and Saber, in the good end) to be happy. This places a strain on his ideals: Whose happiness does he value more? Humanity's, or Rin's (and Saber's)? Shirou slides further away from enlightenment/salvation/whatever, but he never falls. When he is faced with Archer, the manifestation of his ideals betrayed, he catches himself. He truthfully examines his ideals, and comes to a conclusion: He will strive for both. He will save as many as he can, and he will be happy with saving as many as he can.

I feel UBW/Shirou is the best most humans can achieve. He slips from enlightenment, but stops his descent, and begins to pull himself back up. He never reaches that everdistant utopia, but he lives as best a life as a man is able.

...

Might I suggest pornhub?
Heaven's Feel finally breaks him. HF/Shioru is a straight freefall from Saviour to Man.In Heaven's Feel, Shirou not only yearns, but he places his yearning, his desire for selfish happiness, above the happiness of the world at large. HF Shirou regress to the origin point of Man, having reached the bottom rung of enlightenment. His Ego firmly supplants his super ego, and his even his id shows up every now and then. Shirou chooses Sakura, the one thing he wants, over the world and his ideals. If his ideals require that Sakura die that the many be saved (the infamous Mind of Steel ending that people go frothy-mouth over), then he chooses to abandon his ideals. To embrace selfish wants, and do what is best for himself and those he places value in.

HS/Shirou is perhaps the most human of his incarnations. The majority of people on this planet choose, every day, to put themselves ahead of strangers. To put friends and family ahead of the unknown and unknowable others they share the world with. Perhaps this is why people like HF/Shirou. Because his weakness remind them of their own weakness. Because they can empathize, and understand this one choice, as they couldn't grasp the absolute selflessness of Fate, or the more contained but still-present drive to save people of UBW.

Sensei a best

Now onto fate/zero

Kirei Kotomine, presumablysince he was born, has implicitly exhibited the qualities of a psychopath, although that’s not to say that he’s to blame. He tried to follow everything that his father said, believing that it would fill him with the same feeling of self-worth as it did seemingly everyone who worked in his organization. However, his lack of empathy that both contributed to, and followed, the death of his wife and the omnipresent feelings of (unexpressed) disinterest in dogmatically mimicking those around him and carrying out the orders of the church did not produce any genuine sense of value. He attempted living straight-laced and honest, making connections with all the powerful and influential circles and training until he was nearly invincible, all of which failed to grant him any true happiness. He was a psychopath by nature, and his father, who had an evident lack of interest in his son doing anything besides upholding the family tradition, may well have never considered gettingto know him (this ties into the theme of family, which will be discussed later). Kirei would never speak up because of his belief that obeying the commands of the church would grant him happiness, and the devout Risei Kotomine, with similar family values to Tokiomi Tohsaka, evaluated the success of Kirei’s life by his combative prowess and ability to memorise verses, not by how fulfilled he felt.

Umu is sick now!

The true best villain of the franchise is Matou Zouken. His motivations are rooted in achieving a wish he has held for several centuries: to achieve the Third Magic. To reach that end, he has forced himself to become basically immortal; thus, his delusions make far more sense than Kirei’s “Lolyuetsu” and Gil’s “Lol big ego.” Similar to Araya Souren (another one of my personal favorites), he has essentially sacrificed his humanity to become a magus devoted to a single lifetime goal, so simply, he embodies the backwards nature of magi Nasu has been trying to show us throughout his works. Sure, what he did to Sakura was heinous, but most Nasuverse characters in general have done heinous things, and they are still appreciated and loved. Plus, as a villain, you would expect him to do such things. So why not Zouken? He is vastly underrated by the masses.

This brings up an interesting dilemma; had Risei ever taken the time to get to know his son, there may have been a chance that Kirei could have had his lack of interest addressed. However, Risei’s devoutness and lack of interest in Kirei suppressed his sense of self, leaving Kirei to gradually grow bitter with his murderous tendencies hidden even from himself due to his lifestyle. Psychologically, it’s easy to see how the prioritisation of the church and prestigious families over Kirei’s emotions may have led to Risei, Tokiomi and everyone else missing Kirei’s condition. Typically, psychopaths have a tendency to be manipulative, superficially charming, and display indifference to acts of love or violence; all the things, in short, that Kirei is taughtnotto do from a young age both directly and through observation. He may be considered a villain by nature; the only guidance figure who ever reallyknewKirei was Gilgamesh, and it’s obvious that the King of Heroes was much more in tune with Kirei’s deepest desires than Risei ever was. When Kirei manipulated Kariya into strangling Aoi, taking advantage of a man who took on brain damage to save a poor girl, he was genuinely pleased with himself, and in just one scene ticks off close to every box in the psychopathic checklist. However, is he really the only one to blame, or should Risei be held responsible for never really knowing his son? On the whole, he was simply doing what made satisfied his conscience, determined by genetics and perhaps enforced by oppression, willedhim to do for satisfaction. He tried to follow what most consider the “objectively” right path for his entire 27 year life span till the 4th Holy Grail War. Though by the logical of his thematic parallel, his justifications are irrelevant

Leave and take your slut with you
Psychopaths are just people. You are right to say that psychopaths hate weakness, they will attempt to conceal anything that might present as a vulnerability. The test of their self-superiority is their ability to rapidly find weaknesses in others, and to exploit it to its fullest potential.” [1]

Kirei is an example of nature overcoming nurture, which brings us his major contrasting character of Fate/Zero, Kiritsugu Emiya. Kiritsugu was brought up in a coastal community with many other people his own age, having healthy friendships with those around him and even a potential blossoming romance. However, through his relationship with Natalia and observations of how preemptive strikes against the few can save the many (given his inability toShoot the Dogwas what led to his community’s slaughter) he became a bonafide utilitarianist. Sure, it can be argued that initially he was thrust into a world of darkness and magic through no choice of his own, but the way in which he acted against his primal nature, tearing out his soul so that others may no suffer and embodying the spirit of aByronic Herocertainly paints most of the choices he made in his adult life as his own.

Too edgy

2 (two) umus?!

While Kirei tried hard to go against his nature as a sadistic psychopath, the lack of therapy in the early stages of his life and apparent parental disregard for his emotional well being left his nature to build under pressure rather than fizzle out. Kiritsugu, on the other hand, built his own justifications to being a killer for the sake of many, his bright eyed optimism dulling heavily as a result of Natalia’s influence and his own constructed perception of the world and the correct way of fixing it. However, he never really could refute his ultimately good nature in the long run, as the grail depicts that he genuinely loved Irisviel and Illya, so much so that it was his implicit desire to keep them safe, even if it goes against his self-taught principles. Herein lies one of Fate/Zero’s brutally nihilistic ends; both men tried to overcome their nature to find what they desired (self-worth for one, world peace for the other) by going against their nature (that of a sadistic serial killer and family man) as a result of what they evaluated to be the right things to follow (the teachings of the church and utilitarianism). In the end, Kiritsugu’s inner desire to protect his family meant that his utilitarian principles would only bring him heart break, while Kirei’s unchecked psychopathy prevented righteousness or acts of kindness from ever carrying any weight to him, so both men’s actions failed in giving them the satisfaction they required. Both of these men have ambitions and natures akin to two powerful magnets of identical polarity being forced together, with Kirei’s Catholicism and Kiritsugu’s utilitarianism contrasting the cores of whom they are far too strongly to have ever worked.

...

Post anymore things like that and I will rape you
Another area where Kiritsugu and Kirei were similar was in how their development was stunted. In Japanese, Kiritsugu constantly refers to himself as “Boku”, which is unusual for adult males, reflecting that guns and whistles aside, Kiritsugu is a man child who hasn’t changed since the basic principle of utilitarianism and planning was drilled into him at a young age. Much like Light Yagami ofDeath Note, his logistic and strategic prowess doesn’t compromise what is, at its core, an uncompromisingly holistic and emotionally shallow philosophy of saving the many in exchange for the few. However, Fate/Zero covers this much better by presenting Kiritsugu’s shock as a result of his past and determination. Kirei, meanwhile, seems to have been the way he was in during the events depicted for quite some time beforehand, given how everyone misinterprets his dissatisfied lack of emotional involvement as professional minimalism. This isn’t quite water tight, though; given that Kirei is an executioner, wouldn’t he have noticed his tendency towards violence and confessed? Plausibly, something like that may have occurred in the past, but it certainly isn’t noticeably addressed here

Nihilism ultimately won out in the end, as is a running trend throughout Fate/Zero. As Gilgamesh brought out Kirei’s inner sadist, he ultimately had nothing to lose; he was prepared to set his life on the line to discover what about himself left him at odds with what he was taught was good and true. He would probably have gladly given up his father’s church, everyone and everything he had ever met and even his own soul for an answer. Kiritsugu, on the other hand, valued his family more than the faceless masses (as the grail displayed), and his utilitarian principles juxtaposed his primal emotions to the extent that he would have great difficulty sacrificing them for the sake of many. The solution should have been obvious to the beginning to these two men; Kirei could have been a serial killer and lived out his days as a tempest of chaos, and Kiritsugu should have devoted his life to protecting his family, the subjective “ones who matter”, as the many would always be in danger, no matter how often Kiritsugu would avert a major threat.

...

>Taking Fate this seriously.
Stop being a fag and let people talk about Fate the way they want to.

S-Sensei!

He started a bait thread and has been posting a bunch of copypastas, user. No use arguing since he didn't want a discussion, he just wanted to be praised for his shitty analysis

NINOMIYA-KUN!

That mouth needs to be silenced

youtube.com/watch?v=rowG3uiCC00
Best Type Moon BGM of all time.

...

>He wants a fate thread to be actually good
Woah there.

>serious Fate thread
>starts with an Extra image to invite GOfags

The only way to get a half decent Fate thread is in Tsukihime threads.

I WANNA SEX EVERYONE I FATE. MAKE EVERY HISTORICAL FGUE A WHORE

Wait for Empire of Dirt

SHIIISHOOOOOOOOOUUUUU!!!!!

>Tsukihime threads
>rape the maids
>can Shiki kill Servants?
>this chair this chair this chair this chair

...