Fate

>Can summon the most famous strongest hero
>Summon him in his worst class
For what purpose?

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Q. Why did the Einzbern summoned Hercules as a Berserker? I'd think that in some other classes, he'd be able to have access to skills and Noble Phantasms that he had originally had....

A. Simple is POWER. Mayhap the Einzbern, who had been up until now been betrayed again and again, felt it safer to have a "loyal dog that'd do only what they told it to do". The aspect of Hercules as a regular Heroic Spirit would have many advantages in his own right, but on the other hand, there's also the possibility of some cooperative friction occurring with the Master because the heroic part of him is a bit too strong. That kind of Master and Servant combo is pretty frequent in Fate/Zero...

I hate fateshit

>worst
Haha, what? Berserkers get added stats in every category purely for being berserkers. How were they supposed to know that Hercules would actually be better as an archer?

Plus I like to think a berserker simply meshed well with Illya's personality. She's book smart, sure, but I doubt she would have been able to synergise well with a tactician like archer Hercules. Just re-read the first Saber V Berserker fight to see how much of a sadist Illya is, and how much she likes to toy with the enemy.

*Makes Gilgamesh his bitch*

I hate retarded bait threads that belong in Sup Forums.

>For what purpose?
To have him without having to put much effort into writing him.

>Muh stats
Berserkers are the worst class because they're mindless with no techniques. Herc's stats are high even without mad enchantment
>How were they supposed to know Archer his best class
Ummm who doesn't know this?

Gil w-wasn't s-serious

>Gil losing in Gilwank the novel
Don't get your hopes up

>Gilwank the novel
He's losing the moment someone summoned his onahole as servant.
Same with Heracles/Alkeides and Hippolyta.

>Is shown as the greatest threat around everyone else.
So he'll have the same role as he did in FSN, and be killed by an actual main villain right?

How did she fail with a Berseker who's NP is that he has 12 lives?

This guy killed him 6 times....

Gil hax.

Don't listen to the retards who claim Lancer would be able to beat him. He wouldn't.
As for Saber's team, well, Illya really just went easy on them. Plus it took Rin's jewels she saved up for years and years.
OK yeah fine the team Saber V Hercules fight was bullshit. I'm still confused about it.

...

Excalibur somehow counting as killing him multiple times
Gilgamesh having his exact weaknesses (anti divine chains, multiple separate A+ weapons)
Being eaten by the grail

hi new to this shit but all my friends tell me this is the go to anime if you love exciting well drawn fghts.

what fate do i start with? are the animes / movies enough to cover most of the lore?

Emiya is supposed to be a mediocre yet he killed Herc 6 times and his sword skills are even called top tier by Herc himself.
Why does Nasu downplay him?

*mediocre servant

kys

So is he supposed be weaker after taken over by the shadow or what. How did shirou one shot him

To be fair, one can't be sure that he's strongest as Archer since we've only seen him as Archavenger, which seems to at least be a significant buff. However, if they were able to summon his as a knight class they would have, just that as I'm pretty sure even Strange Fake itself says, it's a bitch to control which class is summoned.

>Not summoning an assassin class hero
>Not lurking around waiting for masters to go to battle with their servants and then quickly taking out the masters leaving the servants to dissappear
Seriously wtf are these masters thinking, the only real weakness a master/servant combo has is the master being unable to compete with any servants (don't bring up the Gary Stu's as argument against this)
The most logical way to win the grail war is to take out all the other masters when their servants are too busy to save them, someone like Zouken + Assassin should have had easy time killing other masters, and his near immortality would make it difficult to use his tactic against him
>Berserker + Illiya, wait until Berserker is hamming on a servant and kill the little girl
>Rin + Archer, ez pz
>Saber + Shirou, if he wasn't a Gary Stu it would be easy to kill a shitter mage like him

gilgamesh Blanco when lads ?

Nasu makes shit up as he goes along

Are there any heroes that Berserker would be considered there best class?

>How did Gary Stu the hero of plot armor defeat a servant as a no skill magus?
Cause he is Gary fucking Stu, Shirou, Emo priest and Angsty dad are the trinity of Gary Stu's in the show, they specifically said it would be impossible for masters to compete even with the most weakest servants and emo priest still fought toe to toe against Assassin whose specialty is taking out masters
Fate stay night is shit in terms of plot consistency

Look at his stats as an Archer in F/SF, Mad Enhancement doesn't benefit him at all, plus it's not active for 90% of the time in the VN. Losing a Noble Phantasm as strong as Nine Lives just for some mere stat boost isn't worth at all.

Everything about the F/SN servants just exists to go "WHAT A TWIST" at some point when reading a VN that's too long for its own good.

>lol bet you didn't expect this tiny girl was king arthur
>lol bet you didn't expect this guy to be you from the future and also black
>lol bet you didn't expect medusa to be a beautiful woman that did nothing wrong and also she has a pegasus
>lol bet you didn't expect this gigantic retard to be hercules
>lol bet you didn't expect the assassin to be someone who never actually assassinated anyone besides birds
>lol bet you didn't expect caster to be the weaker one than her master and I also bet you didn't expect her to get ganked by gil in the first route
>lol bet you didn't expect that gil. saber alter and true assassin exist at all

the only one that doesn't have this shit is lancer who tells you he's cu right away to introduce the concept

black shirou when?
oh wait...

Jack, embodiment of madness is far better than assassin.

Please don't bully Demiya, he had a hard life.

Shirou couldn't do shit against him.

There are several limitations to that which make it pretty much impractical.

The first is that even the assassin class can't go undetected once it attacks.
The second is that a lot of assassins can't be too far from their own master. So while the assassin can go undetected, the magus might not.
The third is that against a skilled magus, they can usually avoid the assassin for an OK amount of time, at least until their servant returns or they simply use a command seal to call their servant back. In HF, Kotomine was able to do somewhat OK against assassin and he was old and crippled then.
The fourth is that many maguses use boundary fields/familiars to tell them when an enemy master might be approaching.

>they specifically said
Who is they?

because the cool shit he does sounds cooler if you assure everyone he's totally supposed to be shit

Rin, the VN, etc.

did I miss something, did berserker just give up then or how was that battle resolved if shirou did not kill him.

>and also she has a pegasus
She decapitates herself and pegasus appears, that's her myth.

How would the war have changed if the Matois got Euryale instead?

In the VN Rin told Shirou that he should just get the thought out of his head of fighting instead of Saber saying that even a good magus would not be able to fight against a weak servant 1v1
Yet this is proven to be complete bullshit when Gary Stu's like Shirou, emo priest and grumpy dad beat the cheeks of servants like it was no ones business

Something something Illya distraction.

I remember Berserker stopping his attack because of Illya, but Shirou still killed him. With one attack.

Because servants can choose not to listen to their masters and herc in any other class would refuse to do what they wanted without them using command spells. That's the canon explanation at least.

Benkei?

The entire fate route consists of rin and saber (characters you have no reason to distrust because everything else they say about the setting and the world is completely correct outside of things they had zero way of knowing about) saying that its impossible for humans to fight off a servant, backed up by the fact that every time shirou tries he instantly eats shit and has to have saber save him or conveniently get saved at the last minute while using avalon to heal.

But then UBW and HF go "nvm" to that because somehow UBW and/or having a single arm from a mediocre servant are enough even though again in fate you had to sit through literal in-game days where saber just beats the shit out of shrou with a stick to hopfully get it through his monogoloid brain that he can't keep up

No, Shirou used Nine Lives and killed Herk 9 times, but it didn't stop his charge, Illya distracted him enough for Shirou to kill him for the 10th and last time

Nine Lives isn't a Noble Phantasm, it's a technique

Honestly, why would Heracles not be Berserker?
It's literally the only class that fits him, his entire legend is:
>get angry
>smash shit
>atone
>repeat

>without them using command spells
He can refuse even with CS, he is retardedly strong

It's a technique he used against Hydra and loved it so much he made it into an NP, look at his character page in F/SF or F/GO

So she qualifies as the Rider class due to something that only existed after her death

Seems totally legitimate, oh wait that isn't even part of her myth in the Fate universe. She and her sisters just owned the Pegasus, what a joke.

I love Archer power level discussions, people underestimate redman way to much
His own powers Literally canonically btfo every servant except for assassin and Lancer who would’ve undoubtedly been destroyed as well.
>Saber at peak performance gets disembodied by a dying Shriou using Archer’s tip top sword technique.
>Gil btfo. Ubw is literally the counter to Gil and his cockiness
>Berserker killed 6 fucking times by him while purposely holding him back so Shirou and co could escape. Shriou tracing his own Berserker’s own weapon killed him
>Caster easily defeated. Could’ve killed her if he felt the need to but let her be.
>Don’t remember what happened with fake assassin in UBW, think they both fought off screen, Archer was shown to not be affected by it when he showed back up.
>Fought Lancer to a stalemate 2 times, while Lancer used is trump card and Archer didn’t. Lancer would’ve most likely got Btfo.
In short stats are bullshit. Everything Archer has shown says he’s the most competent servant. Much more than Saber

Shinji would die faster

He's literally just a better version of Gil, slightly inferior quality of weapons but he gets the added bonus of being able to replicate the techniques and abilities of the wielder. This is insanely overpowered.

This thread sucks dick. Can we get back to theorising who the other Grand Servants might be?

>Rider
Alexander/Caesar/Genghis Kahn
>Archer
Gilgamesh
>Lancer
Sun Wu Kong
>Saber
King Arthur
>Berserker
Hercules

>part of her myth in the Fate universe
I hate retcons.
She's rider because of Pegasus as she fits no other class, maybe caster and not even that.

>haha shitty character recycles are OK if they have a tragic past bro

>>Berserker
Ibaraki

No, you can do that with your butt buddies on

>Rin

There you go. Learn into unreliable narration.

>Lancer V Redman
I just can't think of a way Redman can stop or even survive Cu's NP (the melee one). The only reason Gil didn't lose to Cu was because Gil can start shooting those swords almost instantly, he doesn't need to spend time on an incantation before hand to get UBW up. Plus I'm not even sure if Redman can use UBW for 6 hours straight either.

You can stay out of range.

And then what?

Pretty much, gil could be stronger if he just used his actual best weapons but he's too cocky/retarded to do so.

>staying out of range of one of the fastest servants

The overwhelming amount of things rin tells you about magic and the grail war are true, with most of the exceptions being because of the asspull "lol there was a rule but I'm the exception" nonsense nasu pulls in all of his works that she has no real way of knowing about

Also saber, a literal servant and veteran of the grail wars who saw people that have a way better ability to fight a servant than shirou, completely reinforces this point every time it comes up.

There is a literal quarter of the route that exists entirely to go "shirou you can't do this thing, nobody can" with tons of different examples and viewpoints to back it up. It's bullshit. This isn't "shiki using your eyes too much will kill you" because there was a bunch of stuff that made using it worse than it should "normally" be and since even the people who know about them mostly believe they were a myth it makes a lot more sense for people to not really know what they're talking about.

>I just can't think of a way Redman can stop or even survive Cu's NP (the melee one)
You did not ask a "then what", I told you what to do against meele Gae Bolg.
Also EMIYA can swordspam without UBW, it's just expensive.

Because he realized having an OC be one of the strongest characters in a story about mythological figures fighting would be really dumb

>Stay out of range of that one guy who outspeed you and bounce you off the whole fight.

>it's just expensive
I know. Gil was doing it for many hours just to keep Cu from one-shotting him. Redman doesn't have the mana for that length of time.

Speaking of Saber, she was summoned twice in the third grail war, right? Does that mean she has memories of both versions of her from that war?

She spends 99% of the VN acting like Assassin

Cu survived 12h against Gil who swordspam way harder that Emiya

Your "rules narrators" are a teenage girl and a priest who outright lies and hates the protaginist (and all people). It's straight up said that if the Mages Association found out Shirou had a Reality Marble, they would capture him and study him because they don't know much. Shirou was raised by a mage who didn't follow the rules and didn't properly teach him, and he had Avalon implanted into him for something over a decade, which completely fucked up his body. That's BEFORE you look at conditional things like "he met a potential future self", which is something mages haven't studied but makes a massive difference.

When you read Fate/Zero or Tsukihime the rules are "consistent" because you're following characters that mostly follow the rules, with a few small exceptions like the almost-one-of-a-kind Death Perception. Fate/Stay Night follows a character that is interesting because he is extremely rare in his world, and his limits are outside of the world's knowledge.

>Saber at peak performance
Slower, worse instinct, infinity mana does nothing for her outside regen if she can't spam Morgan, which she couldn't.
I would like to see a real Archer vs Saber fight though.

>waaaah reading is hard

Also they tell you who Hercules is right off the bat dumb secondary

Yes, but not because she was summoned twice, but because she isn't summoned from the Throne, but from her deathbed.

It has activation time, it doen not matter that Cu is faster than him if he can get out of the 5 meter range before he gets it off.
I am not even arguing that EMIYA would win in a fight, but if he is fucked up enough that he can not leave the range of Gae Bolg before the activation is done, the fight would already be done and there would be no need for Cu to use it.

youtube.com/watch?v=nLv8Wj_M10g
Hercules is berserk because he killed his own family in rage.

>Your "rules narrators" are a teenage girl and a priest who outright lies and hates the protaginist (and all people)
And saber, who is not only a servant herself and someone who has been in the grail war several times and thus seen humans with way higher power levels than shirou, but someone who's main strength in a fight (beyond lots of great magic and saber-class stats) is her ability to be a really good judge of other peoples combat ability.

You are deliberately ignoring this over and over to focus on how rin (and kotomine, who nobody brought up) only know most things and not everything. Why?

No, he is a berserker because the Eizbern wanted to make 100% sure they won the war, so they summoned a super strong heroic spirit in a class that gives him a power boost.

I mean story of Hercules is a story about rage.

Dude, there a simple explanation.
The power level is exactly what it needs to be for the scene. That's literally it.

Because an Archer-class Hercules could probably have an Independent Action strong enough to kill them all when he learned about Illya's nature and what they did to her.

>Archer is constantly refereed to, in story and by the writers as weak (even if it doesn't really match up his deeds). So he can only take some of berserkers lives
>With one of his arms and some of his ability magically shoved into his brain, shirou can one shot berserker

"b-but he was weak then", as if the story doesn't constantly reiterate that even a servant who's weakened is still miles ahead of a weekend warrior like shirou

shirou is a demi servant in hf and herc is nerfed

He s way too underrated

Herc did not have God Hand when he was grailed, it was just one life.

The difference between Archer and Half dead HF Shirou is way higher than Saber to Saber Alter

Blackened Berserker is a zombie who is blind and does not have God Hand. He is far weaker than how he is normally.

And yet half a servant with a fucked up body can defeat a Saber with more strength and infinite mana?
He's the most popular TM male character and is, outside of Gil, the servant who could probably win the war the easiest. He is not underrated.

Which is why it makes no sense. Even if slowed down, Saber was skilled enough to react to bird hater's autism slice, yet half dead Shirou defeats her with a technique he has only knowledge of? Even if that technique was designed by Archer specifically to take down, Saber, that whole scene was complete wanking.

The whole point of the Fate route is
>these are rules but OH NO they got broken to show how unusual this is!!!11
Honestly if you want a bread and butter "proper" holy grail war where everyone plays by the rules (for the first third, at least) just watch Apocrypha.

>people underestimate redman way to much
Bullshit. The mere description of his skills is absolute powerlevelling faggotry.

>outside of Gil, the servant who could probably win the war the easiest.
>Not Saber with Illya/Rin as her master(War ends on the second day)

>Servant is already stat capped in all classes
>Forget Berserker doesn't give you real boosts, only a tiny + if its capped
>Hero is famed for his wits, strategy and skill.
>Not his pure unyielding instinct
>Summon in class where Brains yield to instinct
>Servant is famed for his exceptional use of all gear he comes in contact with
>Berserker has none of that

If you are fine with dying horrible when unleashing him
Cu would fit the bill.
Even then, his strategic worth is far higher in all other classes.

Because he's basically Gil without golden armor, or to make a better metaphor, the Tohno Shiki of servants. He's entirely outmatched in strength by almost any servant but has an answer to almost anything they can do or attempt to defend against

We don't know how Saber would be affected by Illya, but we know that she has no deficits in stats or mana with Rin as master.
Assuming she doesn't have Avalon, she wouldn't defeat Gil, and would be hardpressed against at least Cu and Archer.
With zero plot twist bullshit, I think the order would be Gil - Archer - Cu/Beserker - Saber - Caster - Assassin - Rider.

More like a weaker version of Gilgamesh who isn't a cocky retard

To put him under control.
Basically this.