Programming is basically a meme industry

Programming is basically a meme industry

>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED
>extreme job competition, all you need is a computer and internet so competition is international
>even highschool kids are taught programming now
>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless

So many people are resorting to programming as a career after they realize their current path is no longer viable, they are making a terrible error. The odds are stacked against them, it's like trying to become a professional athlete when you're 30 years old and overweight. Unless you've been programming since your teenage years and are mildly autistic at a bare minimum DO NOT try to become a programmer. When people talk about a shortage of programmers they're talking about genius savants, not some random Joe.

Despite being over-saturated with 'talent' you'd be hard press to find a single competent person in any pile of resumes.

Someone post that picture of the homebrew guy complaining that he didn't know how to do a reverse binary tree. If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8.

Job interview didn't go well, huh?

>work as editor (journalism)
>have math degree
>want to get into tech and have been teaching myself programming to get into machine learning stuff
So what the fuck am I supposed to do?

I'm guessing this is the case. OP, did you also accuse your interviewer of "projecting" when he objectively determined that your programming skills are non-existent?

Do research and don't be a code monkey
Surprising that a math 300k starting all girls you want doesn't know programming, you should had learned that along your math degree

Most STEM fields will become like this soon.

even highschool kids are taught programming now<

Took that in HS, hardly learned anything more than I could have gotten through YouTube; calm down op.

well I fucking didn't
What research should I do

Something you like
just b urself :)

>pickup a book on the subject
>read
>practice until your fingers bleed

There's no cutting corners, you gotta have those 10,000 hours to become a master in any field.

>>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
Git gud, scrub.

I mean what would I research, as opposed to programming (to avoid being a code monkey)

>CS
>research
wew

That is why you pick a field with little competition or possess skills that are niche and make you stand out.

The situation you describe exists in every industry, take accounting and finance, people flocked to it in my country thinking it was the money making field, now it is so saturated, the value of the certification is depreciated.

I cannot emphasize the importance of networking and interpersonal skills.

It is not what you know anymore, it is who you know. People can open doors for you if they know you well enough.

I'm not familiar with the industry, but isn't it possible to outsource 100% to a cheaper country for work? I'm considering majoring in computer science, but I'm afraid I won't get a job because of that.

>That is why you pick a field with little competition or possess skills that are niche and make you stand out.

Or do something you love. If you like what you're doing, then getting good at it shouldn't feel like such an endeavour that you have to frog post on an anonymous message board.

>I won't get a job

This is one of the things our professor was mad about. Why wait for a job opening when you can start your own business. Many software graduates here started their consultancy firms and some even partnered with business students to launch their own software house.

I agree but job security and fear of failure are strong forces that come from within. I wanted to go into CS because I loved tinkering computers since I was 7. Due to circumstances I ended up going into finance to ensure I get a job when I graduate, which I did.

>do something you love meme

The worst thing you can do is, 'do something you love' for a living, because you won't love it no more.

I fucking swear. Machine Learning is the dumbest possible shit for people to flock to. People really think that because they can use a node ML library that they're qualified data scientists.

Machine Leaning IS NOT PROGRAMMING. It's fucking math and statistics

I've ruined every hobby I've ever loved by turning it into a career. Now I don't love anything.

Why don't you pick up crossdessing as a hobby?

Even if I did I'd end up becoming a drag queen, and finding a way to make money from it, and end up hating my new drag queen life.

>start a business

There's an opportunity cost when you start a business - primarly if your business doesn't pan out, which most don't, you forego months or when you could have been earning a whole lot more money, and to top it off the skills and experience you could have picked up in that time. When you re-enter the working world you might be in worse situation than if you've never bothered to start a business.

This is namely the biggest reason why most people don't start their own business - if it were a silver bullet more people would be doing it. If you start a business its better to do it while young, you'll still have time to recover financially.

>>photograph on CV
not even once man

I have a degree in math faglord

>not releasing your own products
You only have to have one successful product.

If you already know a good amount of linear algebra and stats, just learn R. It's barely programming

>scientists

>When people talk about a shortage of programmers they're talking about genius savants, not some random Joe.

You need good people skills too. Even if you're genius programmer, companies won't hire you if you can't communicate well.

>Someone post that picture of the homebrew guy complaining that he didn't know how to do a reverse binary tree. If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8.

>tfw ten years of programming for a living and never had to do that

Reading up on and messing around with that kind of stuff is just common sense if you're about to interview somewhere, every cunt wants to ask that kind of shit now to weed out the script kiddies

>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old

Fuck these people who enjoy their jobs I want to come slave away doing something I hate until I kill myself at 45.

>isn't it possible to outsource 100% to a cheaper country for work?
Sure, but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. The only way to make it work is to have your own expert watching the cunts and making sure they're actually doing good work and not the usual garbage that third-worlders turn out

>job security
>this century
no such thing anymore, better to take the shekels whenever you can and save as much as possible so you've always got a big green security blanket to fall back on

>not killing yourself at 38

Talk about plebs

>If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8

Today a lot of people actually "program" by developing trivial wordpress sites and web stuff that requires little to no understanding of computation. It's a good job and good money but you can't easily turn a front-end dev into an embedded dev overnight.

>>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless

How is that a meme industry? You need a degree to get an engineering job! Shocking!

Software is easy as shit if you're any good.

It's common in Europe, highly looked down upon in the US and the Americas.

>engineering

The bad thing about easy jobs is that you can be easily replaced. See all the HTML jockeys who found themselves out of work after the dotcom bubble burst.

Get an actual skill and you won't be easy to replace - see all the asshole sysadmins who are hard to fire despite their atrocious interpsersonal skills and bad customer service, or the old mainframe people who still have jobs because its been almost impossible to replace legacy systems running niche infrastructure systems.

Old adage, easy come, easy go.

What I read on OP's post:
> graduated with honors
> couldn't find job for three months
> got to an interview and I didn't get the job
> interviewer was an indian guy with an annoying voice
> he said I that I can't even do a fizzbuzz correctly and that the guy before me did excellent and was a highschool dropout
> he said knowing Java doesn't mean I know how to program
> I tell him I have a certification from SoloLearn
> he laughs, gives me a hand shake and says he'll call me

>you need a degree

Some of the bigger corps require degrees, but most just require experience, except maybe start-ups.


>Software is easy as shit if you're any good.

No shit, anything is easy if you're any good.

That's the reason I'm trying to complete my engineering degree and get as deep into "real" engineering as I can. I know there could be a burst right now for all the fancy web-dev companies but there will always be a need for C/C++ Java tier devs.

>Unless you've been programming since your teenage years and are mildly autistic at a bare minimum
me irl, probably why I was able to get a career in programming without a degree

>If you like what you're doing, then getting good at it shouldn't feel like such an endeavour that you have to frog post on an anonymous message board.
where can I get a job frogposting
I like frogposting and am good at it

>Some of the bigger corps require degrees, but most just require experience, except maybe start-ups.

Sure, but degrees obviously help you get experience (and internships are the incredibly obvious way to start). But it's definitely an advantage for most people to have a degree. I don't really see that as being a bad thing. A lot of self taught guys don't understand algorithmic complexity or general scalability issues. If you do understand these things, you should have no trouble getting through a programming interview.

You'll probably make more money if you just get a back office job at a bank and write sketchy vba subroutines that blow everyone's minds.

The point being you really don't need a degree, not to take away or discourage people who do have degrees. With that said having a degree doesn't guarantee competency. I knew a guy who had 150K in school loans, for fairly big private university, and he didn't strike me as being any smarter/more skilled than any of the programmers I've known.

The thing about self-taught, self-lead learning, is those people generally have a higher affinity for the subject/field than those who just go through the motions of going to school, getting a diploma, getting intershipn, and eventually everything falls into place and you now have a job.

These threads always confuse me. I'm getting and engineering degree from a reputable university, have 10 months of 40 hour a week full time co-op experience of embedded software development, and 3 years of an oncampus sponsored .NET MVC webapp part time job.

It's really not fucking hard to get internships/experience when you're a student. And it's not that hard to get a job when you have internships/experience. You just need to be able to clearly communicate during interviews and have some technical skills. For entry level, companies hire based off a bit of skill, but mainly off "do I like this guy? If we spend our $$ to train him, could he do the company good and be a productive person to work with?"

Sup Forums is full of fucking smarter people than me, yet you all complain about not having any fucking jobs and "hurr durr everyone gets jobs before me, H1B's fuck me over, blah blah blah blame other people" Either you don't understand how the software development job market works, or you're all fucking 100% social retards (probably the ladder).

>ladder
Stopped reading there

Well that's the end of my post so I'm glad you read the whole thing.

Autism is the name of the thing you have to understand. In truthfulness, most of Sup Forums and also Sup Forums is filled with antisocial people and anger is their shield. If you manage to succeed in whatever you are doing then fine.

Being smart doesn't always mean you have great life skills.

Also, 98% of these threads are inflamatory for the sake of starting discusion.

Yeah it's true. I mean I'm no Chad, I don't get laid that often and I can be decently social awkward compared to other college students I know.

But fucking professionalism in interviews and good communication skills can be learned be reading a fucking book and practicing a lot. At networking events or career fairs, go to a company you don't want to work for and practice your networking. You'll spaghetti, take notes on what you did wrong, and then get better and better until you're good.

People with autism can learn to pick up on social queues. it's just harder for them since it's not intuitive. Professional social queues are 500% less complicated since they're literally, LITERALLY described with pretty static rules.

Yeah I guess I take things on Sup Forums at face value too much. I suppose that's a form of autism or social unawareness or whatever. But yeah, the insanely smart asian guys in my class can't communicate and so they don't make much progress in group settings (translated to real world: dont work well together on american software development teams).

They need to get rid of core of common studies bullshit and force all engineers to take some "technical communication" class instead of waste of time english 101 -> 102. Make you describe your program logic flow out loud for an assignment and other shit.

>I mean I'm no Chad
We can tell. You sound like a loser on Sup Forums of all places

Yeah, I go to hacking events and that kind of thing to socialize. It's fun enough.

>It's not that fucking hard

now imagine being so autistic that the words ".NET MVC webapp" send you into an incoherent rage that ends in declaring that the web should have been based on lisp

>but you can't easily turn a front-end dev into an embedded dev overnight.
desu you can't turn "front-end devs" into anything

look at the shitshow that is node.js - it's the result of front-enders being let loose elsewhere

>they all use a five-line library to left-pad a string instead of writing it themselves
>library author cracks the shits and removes it and half the internet breaks
hilarious but depressing to see how far the infestation reaches

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IM NOT CAULDRON 2.0 REEEEE

see for all my achievements before even reaching 21 years old fag. Very few 4chaners are Chads in real life but being a socially competent engineer is already a step above the average engineer.

For sure. I like those hackathons and other engineering day events. Big companies sponsor, you get a taste of their corporate life, maybe win an XBox, network and do some fun innovative problem.

Well I for one am very interested to hear more about his social cue identification exercises and training regimen.

I audibly kek'd. That's some stallman.org level of autism.

>Professional social queues are 500% less complicated since they're literally, LITERALLY described with pretty static rules.
My problem is sometimes I forget the order things go in. Like my last interview, I squeezed before grabbing the interviewer's hand when reaching for the handshake. This resulted in the interviewer grabbing the outside of my closed hand, while I had already begun guiding our hands in an up and down motion. The frenzy of this miscommunication also caused me to wet my pants.

>I'd rather be a NEET than contribute to this fucking harmful bloat
>brb setting up a blog based on werc and then killing myself because i'm philosophically opposed to the only option my autistic self has

>be me
>study to be teacher
>super easy college course
>get certified quick and easy
>get lots of offers from all around the country
>such high demand that I can negotiate pay
>get plenty of vacation days
>mfw faggots would rather go into some shit tech field

>Have to be berated by normie children and dindus all day
>Libertarians and trump think you should be paid less until test scores actually rise, and that things that make your job easier like computers are a waste of taxpayer dollars
>You will eventually go to jail after a teenage girl says you stare-raped her

Even though I'm socially awkward, I've never messed up a handshake like that.

Teaching is way more competitive of a field in any district that pays decently well. Places with high demand have high demand because you can make more money waiting tables in those areas.

Tldr: I'm incompetent at programming so I'm trying to discourage others and bring them down to my level of bitterness, cynicism and self-hatred.

Nice try, OP, but I started at 22 and it's been almost a year, I'm already getting paid to put together software for a recruitment company.

Try harder next time, buddy.

just... wew

In the off chance you're not a troll and actually want professional networking advice (it's something imo most engineering students lack), I'll bite.

Put yourself in any employer's shoes for entry level jobs. Most of these jobs are filled by students who really don't have enough real world experience to have any actual skills that apply directly to the job (i.e. working on a webapp doesn't translate directly into doing embedded BIOS work or whatever).

For entry level jobs, they just want a bright, communicable employee who is eager to learn and is dependable. Any company that hires for an entry level position is going to literally pay you salary for you to train. This is a 100% drain on the companies finances during training, so they want a good return on that investment.

During interviews or networking, talk about your programming projects and past experience a bit, but talk more about the thought process and your steps in completing that project. Talk about what obstacles you overcame, how you researched the problem, etc.

As for communication, wear nice clothes and practice talking about technical things out loud. Good posture, positive body language, practice making eye contact and picking up on social cues if you can't intuitively do it. Practice speaking slowly and clearly, anunciation, staying on topic with the large overarching themes of your problem you're describing instead of going into detail over the tiniest technical issue. Practice physically writing code on a whiteboard. It's all practice.


Go to career fairs or networking events and talk to companies you don't give a shit about so when you spaghetti it doesn't matter. You get better with practice.

If you're going to take one thing away, just show your potential employer you're eager to learn and can communicate well.

And do you think I would have peed in my pants if it had ever happened to me before? Come on.

You can be very competent at programming but be a complete idiot at the OO/API-gluing shit that will actually get you an entry level job, just because you refused to learn it out of spite

>Your first day at work
>HERE IS THE IDE WE USE
>HERE IS YOUR DELL WORKSTATION WITH WINDOWS 7
>HERE IS JAVA
>HERE IS A LIST OF OUR TECHNOLOGIES
>HERE IS A DESIGN DOCUMENT AND UML CHART FOR YOUR TASK.
>AVOID WRITING FROM SCRATCH. AVOID PULLING IN NEW LIBRARIES. REUSE. COMPANY. CODE. WHEN. POSSIBLE.
>"can i use lisp"
>NO

In a situation like that, the best thing to do is the audible laugh it off and be like "Let's try that again." 90% of the difference between a socially competent semi-weirdo and a full out autist is just laughing at yourself and being able to get past the awkward parts to communicate clearly. Most all engineers are nerds and autists at heart, managers know this. It's all about "can I see myself training and working with this guy".

My students are all white and they are great kids. I work in rural New England, not South-Central Los Angeles.

My students get great scores.

Most of the kids at school like me and prefer me over the other teachers.

What is your definition of "pays well." I got an offer of $80k/yr in Los Angeles but that is shit pay for that place. I get paid $50k/yr here and I live well.

>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED

So basically, you need to stop complaining and git gud. Or are you too stupid to do that?

Yeah but I'm writing my own software using my own methods.

So I don't understand why you replied to me with that.

its sucks for sure.

im scared of the turbo fucking nerds that knew all this shit before getting into school

im also scared for this generation because it seems like no one is working on their homework

people just google the same question because its the same question that has been asked for 10 years

yeah sure if you fuck up your schedule its nice to have something to back up on but if you just google shit then you dont learn anything

lads

computer science, computer engineering, or applied math?

Not the guy you responded to, but the average american is also retarded when it comes to basic finance. No one takes into account salary / cost of living when getting new jobs. NO ONE. Faggots be so happy to be getting $18/hr for a Cali internship when I'm literally saving so much more not paying $2000/month in rent.

People also suck at saving. But this is all offtopic tbhfam

Fine Arts

engineering. Gives you the most options since you get some hardware experience too. It's also the hardest so that degree carries the most weight.

But to be honest, it's 45% more about internships and experience, and 45% more about communication skills.

>you have to literally become donald draper to become an entry level code monkey in 2016
Anyone who has this much confidence in speaking, digiligence in training areas where they lack, would not be in the field of programming. They'd be in sales making fat commisions

>What is your definition of "pays well." I got an offer of $80k/yr in Los Angeles but that is shit pay for that place. I get paid $50k/yr here and I live well.
Senior faculty in the wealthier districts of long make 150k-200k/year. I lived in boca raton and made 50k a year waiting tables, while the average teacher's salary was below 40k.

There is high demand in California right now, but it doesn't pay nearly enough when you take cost of living into account.

You don't start out in technical sales as an entry level person. You need experience in order to do that.

That's my whole fucking point. Everyone in these type of threads complain about not getting entry level jobs, but you literally have NO excuse. It takes more work being a 100% autist to not get an entry level job than getting one. All the social skills can be acquired.

I was being sarcastic, I make spreadsheets and write SQL for a bank and it pays better than most entry-level programming jobs here.

Sup Forums

*long island

You are the 1%

Also enjoy your dead end job unless you're a complete badass

Oh alright then. Well hopefully some autists in this thread take some of my advice to become socially competent. It can be acquired if you're a literal autist.

Good for you senpai.

It's a temporary job.

I'll do it, add it to my CV then find another.

I am a badass.

>$2000/month in rent

If you're willing to lower your standards, there are places below $1000/month.

Have fun with your pistol whippings and bed bugs in oakland

Fuck man. I really want to be a teacher.

Any reasons why I shouldn't?

1. teenagers
2. teenagers' parents
3. black teenagers

bad pay
parents
transgender politics

you don't
did an internship but still didn't get a job afterwards since I got surprised by a technical question during the interview

>mfw living in $350/month rent

You should! I have teacher friends and while they say its stressful, its very rewarding. Of course its only been a few years so they may just haven't burned out yet.

Reasons why not to is the inherent conflict with the duty to try to commit to all your kids, and the fact that its proven that even one bad egg can ruin a class. This is a stressful position I hear.

I would only become a teacher if my contract stipulates that I don't have to work with black children. Is there a way to do that?

Why would you want to do that? Black kids are the people who need education and a teacher to commit to them the most.