Recently started using a systemd distro (was previously on Ubuntu/Server 14.04). And boy do I like it.
Makes it a breeze to run an app as a service, logging is per-service (!), centralized/automatic status of every service, simpler/readable/smarter timers than cron.
Cgroups are great, they're trivial to use (any service and its child processes will automatically be part of the same cgroup). You can get per-group resource monitoring via systemd-cgtop, and systemd also makes sure child processes are killed when your main dies/is stopped. You get all this for free, it's automatic.
I don't even give a shit about init stuff (though it greatly helps there too) and I already love it. I've barely scratched the features and I'm excited.
I mean, I was already pro-systemd because it's one of the rare times the community took a step to reduce the fragmentation that keeps the Linux desktop an obscure joke. But now that I'm actually using it, I like it for non-ideological reasons, too!
Except, it simply isn't better. Actually sysadmins realize the problem with systemd logging tools, and minimalists have much more bloat to remove. The "faster boot times" are negligible. Systemd has its own implementations of su and sudo. Remind why we are using systemd again?
Ian Hill
I work as a linux sysadmin and the logging tools in particular are one of the main reasons I decided to switch to systemd for my home system. What a convincing argument you bring there
Jason Taylor
literally just powered up mozilla to see if there was any systemd shitposting going on.
been doing some more research lately and i'm officially scared. what can an user do about this imminent threat to his freedom?
Cooper Bennett
>home system
kek
Joseph Perry
t. NSA
Dominic Clark
What? You don't like Systemd as a hard dependency? You don't like having factory-resetting built into your OS? You don't like windows style boot process?
Andrew Cook
It's funny really that the shit that makes mainframe babys cry is the most mainframe friendly software created.
Juan Scott
What about how systemd creates autofs mount points and starts daemons before their filesystems are available? Systemd is literally retarded.
Jackson Russell
Their arguments are: >muh tradition >muh unix philosophy
Anthony Rivera
>if I ignore everything there is nothing >thus the world doesn't exist >QED
Andrew Torres
>I've barely scratched the features and I'm excited Start playing around with systemd-nspawn and machinectl if you want another rush of excitement.
Zachary Russell
Nice gaslighting user.
Bentley Barnes
and your argument is: >muh boot time >most people are using it, therefore it must be good
Henry Ward
Can I install it without sudo? (or the other packages in the old .gif sockpuppet eating)
>inb4 your needs should be x therefore you need sudo
Dominic Green
That quite honestly sounds like an error in your configuration more than anything else.
And init system is something you work with. No maintainers on planet earth could possibly figure out your dependency requirements upstream. Add the right dependencies you need to make sure your things start in the right order and stop complaining about it.
John Gonzalez
I don't understand. Are you accusing him of having rather excellent reasons to not like systemd?
Nathaniel Gray
systemd "just works".
Wyatt Wright
>excelent reasons Yes. I'm acussing them for having excelent 70s reasons to limit 2010s computers functionality.
Jack Cruz
systemd is a collective framework of 70+ independent binaries and tools Nobody is forcing you to use all of them. For example, I use `sudo`, `ntpd`, `unbound` etc. instead of the systemd alternatives, because I have nothing to gain from switching those.
Meanwhile, I use journald instead of syslog and timers instead of cron, becauase those actually give me some advantage over the legacy stuff they replace.
Just be smart and make your own choice instead of swallowing the shit fed to you by others..
Nicholas King
No, that's how systemd auto-fs system works.
Isaac Edwards
so did mint until your system became a petri dish for malware.
Jordan Hernandez
its funny because systemd absorbed gummiboot, which was said to "just work"
Noah Sanders
Still confused. Are excellent reasons suddenly irrelevant because they are old or time-tested?
Is systemd on le right side of history?
Grayson Evans
Considering it works absolutely fine here (*including* auto-fs mounted via NFS), I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're doing something wrong.
You're also assuming that I'm using a "home station" as well.
Levi Ward
well, arch forced me into systemd, years ago, I like timers and the simple .service files but this guys complain for a valid reason, not enough for me to switch cause my needs are very simple. I hated when systemd crashed and my log files were gone, there's when started to read about.
I'm talking about an environment of a few dozen servers and a few hundred workstations, all of which are running systemd.
But sure, go blame lennart for your own incompetence
Gavin Rodriguez
>picks arch linux >complains about having no choice can't make this shit up
Eli Cox
"systemd boots faster" has always been a meme because systemd has precisely 0 technical advantages. Lying about something that literally doesn't matter in any way is much easier than lying about something meaningful since few people will bother disproving or even examining the claim: they'll be too busy repeating ad nauseum why systemd is dogshit for actual technical reasons. Thus, the sheep can be safely convinced.
Samuel Watson
no u
Robert Lee
The comments about the GR are what's most baffling. Even more so when you look around and notice that the same kind of queerness happened with not only distros that adopted systemd, but projects which have come to depend on systemd and even projects that were absorbed by systemd.
Ethan Johnson
I'd just like to interject for moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, SystemD/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, SystemD plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning SystemD system made useful by the SystemD corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
Many computer users run a modified version of the SystemD system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of SystemD which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the SystemD system, developed by the SystemD Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the SystemD operating system: the whole system is basically SystemD with Linux added, or SystemD/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of SystemD/Linux!
Sebastian Adams
Can we make a systemd distro? Make systemd a dependency for GCC and Wayland?
Brody Garcia
It's already a de facto dependency for wayland (because every serious wayland compositor depends on systemd).
Robert Baker
Dibs on the logo
Carter Myers
Without being polemical, is pretty obvious it was a hijack.
Blake Williams
They're irrelevant because those precepts where made in a time where we expected different things of computers of that era. Our computers are different now.
Anthony Bailey
It's completely pointless to get engaged in these threads, but all I'm going to say is that systemd's supposed benefits are irrelevant to the argument made in favour of avoiding it. My system has worked just fine for years and I have no intention of changing it. I don't care about boot time because, hey, it's current year, and in the few cases I have to hard restart it's not going to matter whether I shave off ten seconds or not.
Before anyone answers, please understand that I'm well aware of the advantages systemd offers. I'm aware of the problems with sysvinit (although I don't run vanilla sysvinit anyway). I'm not even really a fan of Unix systems. But the answer is not to try and "fix" sysvinit by going in the exact opposite direction and making it even worse, then trying to obfuscate how much shit you've loaded into one daemon by sausaging them around with "cgroups", or by introducing completely insane software like journald.
If I want to run Windows, I'll run Windows.
Joshua Young
>le systemd is windows meme
Ryder Lee
Works great until you run into undefined behavior and discover defaults don't do what you think they do, and they aren't documented.
Then by the time you figure out what they do new patches are crammed into systemd that turn on more defaults.
Then you see daemons coming a long and rewriting your /etc files without telling you, you stop said daemon and then a new daemon spawns and rewrites it.
It's cancer
Robert Perry
Fuck off lennart.
Anthony Perez
Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Although you're right in a sense user, Windows log managers are probably more mature
Bentley Brooks
Run slackware (for now, no systemd) Run a bsd Run Gentoo Run windows Run OSX
Blake Brooks
>run OSX It has launchd
Connor Carter
>Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. But systemd doesn't behave like windows. It behaves more like the idea that freeturds have about NT/Win32
Noah Hill
> app as a service I want these memes to end
Jack Smith
>tfw your next gen Nvida/AyyMD graphics card will be a literal card with a one year suscription for "cloud graphics processing"
Jace Russell
>>>/reddit/
John Cruz
LEL
Nolan Perez
>stop making jokes in my thread!
Zachary Wilson
Name a few examples of 'modern' things a computer with systemd can do that one with init can't.
Caleb Richardson
What are the benefits of systemd? I'm interested in your opinion because you oppose systemd
Carson Collins
Reconfigure the computer and start services on demand when hardware is plugged or unplugged. Shutdown the machine properly and gracefully. Execute containers seamlessly.
Jose Gutierrez
All of this has been possible for 2 decades or more before systemd was ever conceived.
Landon Russell
With hacks, ugly code and unmaintenable solutions. Or, in case of the shutdown, just ignoring the problem.
Nolan Rodriguez
I work as an admin (part of a group of 7) that has ~3000 RHEL 6 (maybe a dozen RHEL 5) to manage. We're specifically looking for an upgrade path that doesn't include RHEL 7 or other systemd based distros because of the many things it breaks. Like having a system crash and corrupt your logs since journald didn't terminate cleanly. And since it's not plain text logging, all useful data is lost. Good thing we have central logging, right? Well, it doesn't make a bit of difference if you run into a core dump or other major failure during boot before networking is entirely up. At least with SysV init (or svcadm for our Solaris hosts) we can connect locally and parse what's been logged. Systemd makes sense for desktop and laptop use. Fine. I'll give it that. But it has no place in enterprise unless you're RedHat, and only then because if you're not dog fooding no one will trust your product.
Ian Martinez
I work as an admin and I experienced the reverse.
James Long
Straight theft from reddit.
Adrian James
BSD jails and Solaris zones were a cleaner implementation of "containers" than docker ever was and obviously had no need for systemd
Jackson Stewart
You mostly bare metal or VM?
Noah Walker
Just install gentoo already and fuck off
Brayden Murphy
Bare metal. Sometimes VM. Systemd for me hasn't been a godsend, but was better that the turds that reeplaced.
Elijah Diaz
Your mum's basement is not a business.
Caleb Morris
Which turds? Do you mean default system logging? Do you mean centralized logging? Do you mean initialization and service management? Do you mean permissions and user management? Because systemd caused changes to all of these things with RHEL 7. And for a shop that's been running LDAP with either syslog-ng or rsyslog for ages, it's lead to more reimplementation than progress. Not to mention how absolutely poor systemd unit file documentation was until about 1 year ago.
Carter Smith
Hi Lennart, how's it hanging?
John Davis
>I'm talking about an environment of a few dozen servers and a few hundred workstations, all of which are running systemd. >few dozen servers and a few hundred workstations >few hundred workstations >workstations
Again, I reiterate, systemd makes sense enough for someone using it on a desktop or laptop. But it has no place in an enterprise environment running on servers. A "few dozen servers" does not an enterprise environment make. The smallest data center my team manages is ~500 bare metal servers with just under 100 VMs in one of the clusters.
Eli Kelly
>recnfigure on demand Whats it good for?
How do you mean gracefully?
Dylan Phillips
>Stop clinging to the past Braindead Kys
Nathan Hughes
this CAN'T WAIT for Devuan +Gnome
Alexander Miller
lately the Red Hat marketers are particularly active on this board. Are you seriously take us as real linux users? 9/10 of this board is using wangblows and is not able to program, mindlessly reiterating GPU and Sup Forums threads. Why don't you go to shill your bullshit to reddit? You already destroyed debian, now you have no serious competition from the open source community anymore. WTF do you want to achieve?
Wyatt Davis
Bump.
Jackson Green
True
>Gpl licensed, free and open source >"Just werks" >Faster boot process >Eliminates bloat/meme packages
There is NO reason why one should delete systemd from his system. There is nothing systemd can't do what other init systems can.
>Botnet Source is open, show where
>Not Unix Neither is linux
>pottering So what packages did YOU publish yesterday?
Easton Jackson
POOTERING IN LOOTERING, LENART
Jayden Carter
Epic argument, insignificant NEET
Jayden Ortiz
meanwhile trying to administrate servers
fuck off with your linux on the desktop meme. I don't want to have to learn netbsd.
Caleb Sanchez
...
Nolan James
I'm pretty sure everyone here would rather use systemd than sysvrc/sysvinit.
Gabriel Wright
real disadvantages
(as in, things systemd forces you to do) systemd is tied to linux kernel and glibx and udev and specific journaling daemon, basically, having systemd means you're locked in to a whole lot of other things systemd is renowned for locking up during startup and boot when you have network filesystems systemd hardcodes quite a lot of the booting and shutdown process in C which other systems place in easily editable scripts
less real disadvantages (mostly things that in practice happen due to how distributions work but in theory are not required by upstream systemd) systemd in practice requires quite a lot of things: ACLs, PAM, dbus, polkit, these are not hard requirements but without this the above advantages are lost so all distributions enable them at compile time. logind starting to do retarded shit like user sessions and having retarded power management, in theory you can disable logind, but no distribution again does this systemd is very monolithic and comes in one configuration compared to being able to piece your system together yourself, this sounds bad except that unless you run something like Gentoo or Exherbo you were already submitted to this, while the distribution was able to pick the choice of lower level system components before they switched to systemd, you had no choice in this and just used what your distribution stuffed you with. If your distribution used whatever cron daemon, you used that, if your distribution used consolekit1/2 you used that, if your distribution used acpid/Upower, you used that, you used whatever device manager, syslogger, init and RC your distribution used. While systemd replaces all those things and thus leaves the configuration no longer a choice for the distribution, unless you ran a meta distro that allowed you to choose those things you didn't loose much choice now did you? systemd is both an unfair scapegoat and is being unfairly praised.
John Scott
Ok, you say its monolithic. But afaic you can ditch some if its modules, like sudo, can't you?
And what are the advantages?
Adrian Scott
>real disadvantages
>No real ones
Ethan Ortiz
Sucking smoke in caves worked just find for thousands of years, we never should have invented agriculture.
Matthew Sanchez
>Like having a system crash and corrupt your logs since journald didn't terminate cleanly. You do know that journald is optional, right? systemd works just fine with syslog.
Austin Miller
Seriously though, even if systemd is "God's gift to man" it shouldn't become a dependency for so many packages.
Andrew Harris
The only reason people choose to depend on systemd is because systemd makes their lives easier.
If you have a problem with that, blame the people who choose to depend on it, don't blame the dependency for being too useful..
Michael Long
Is this a copypasta now? I remember it from the previous systemd shill thread.
Thomas Bell
systemd shills always keep talking about how fast systemd boots, but who keeps on restarting their servers all day long?
Evan Harris
what I thought after I read it do people that post this page even read it?
Luis Bell
no one, but if they do every second counts
Luke Kelly
all you fucks wouldnt be arguing if you had just installed gentoo
