W-what happens to you as a dev after you reach 30, Sup Forums?
I keep hearing that you're basically fucked after that, no one will hire you and you can't progress beyond Senior Software Engineer
Is this the case? If so, what do you do?
I like programming, and I'd like to do it professionally, but the thought of never advancing beyond that point is putting me off a little
>mfw over 30
>mfw Senior applications Engineer
if you never attain senior status then you're fucked. so do a good job and learn a lot. make good connections.
So what's it like?
Yup. I got my EE/CS degree at 23, and even that was too old. I found out I was getting passed over for 21 and 20 year olds with worse stats than me.
If you're 25 or older, it's significantly harder to find a job, and this goes for all engineering fields.
well if you don't like being the senior dev you can always try to asslick your way into management.
or just join a startup, they'll gladly give you a title of Lead Jedi Ninja 10x Rockstar Developer.
I can assure you this would not be the case if you lived in North America.
But I do. I mean I found a job, but still.
I turned 30 this year, and I'm not even done in university yet ;_;
thats really weird man. maybe you were just shit when you came out of school. I graduated undergrad at 24 in CS and found a job in SF really quickly. before I even graduated.
26yo here, been a business analyst for two years (though involved enough Python work that I'm not a million miles from dev level), and all I can see on google are questios like "How can I change from software engineer to business analyst", never the other way around
I don't get it, software engineers get paid a ton to do interesting work, sounds like a sweet gig
>I don't get it,
It's a Sup Forums meme. We're all pretending that our jobs are going to indian immigrants.
Why is that
Do companies not like 30 year olds?
If you're going to join a startup, either do it:
>fresh out of college when money isn't a big deal, and you want experience + fun. The reason for this is they will exploit the shit out of you, you'll be working a million hours a week for half your friends' salaries
or
>later in life, when you can parachute in at a high level, get paid a ton (because they've realised all their managers are like 24 and don't know anything, so they need to hire in experience), and get a ton of respect as well as a fun environment
Otherwise dont bother
t. guy seeking to escape Mr. Bones Wild Startup
That's because if you're still doing grunt work at 30 instead of delegating that kind of work, you're an autist code monkey and they will use you as such.
You should be some form of management by 30. Not necessarily an executive, but you should be in charge of other people instead of in the trenches yourself.
I know startups prefer to hire young people because they're gullible enough to take a shit salary and work long hours because they work in a meme office, get free food and beer and have a ping pong table or whatever
No idea if it's the case in grownup world though- can't see a bank or someone just hiring in retarded grads to do financial engineering
Yeah, maybe. I had some professors tell me some fucked up shit about how companies discriminate against entry-level applicants older than 21, so that stayed with me.
I was probably just shit at interviews.
I don't hate my start up salaries. Been at two start ups, 2.5 years each. First paid me 120k + equity second was 132k + equity.
The first didn't pan out and failed. The second was bought for a bit and I'm taking a year and a half to build my own thing that will no doubt fail.
disclaimer: I am very average in skill level
30 year olds are less flexible and moldable than younger people in their 20's. Take into account that technology tends to switch rather rapidly and your knowledge gets outdated sooner than later and your wage is also going up during that period, while the graduated can be paid the minimal amount. The industry tends to take the younger inexperienced employee over the experienced 30 year old...it's more cost effective. Hence it's the optimal move to either specialize into a specific branch, or go into management or business if you have broader knowledge or stay as a Senior in the company. That's how the industry sadly is now.
It's even simpler than that, actually.
30 year olds tend to be in that age where they either have a family or are about to get a family.
People in their 20s can work longer and harder.
Fuck
I got caught in the meme trap I described. In europe so salaries are different. I was desperate when I took it (and we were just after a recession, which lowered salaries again), but still very very shit
At the point now where I just want to go somewhere where I can wear a fucking suit and get paid, which is sad
Actually not bad at all... I only visit the office twice per week. I also have personal projects and earn more money than I ever did before.
And 30 year olds also usually have experience, whereas people in their 20s will demand less in salary and benefits.
...
>30 year olds tend to be in that age where they either have a family or are about to get a family
unless you're a gentoomen
the only family you need is your waifu and your thinkpad
bingo
speaking as somebody who just hired a twenty-two year old "junior" engineer I can say this is exactly what I had in mind. that and I can subtract 10-20k a year from their salaries because they "don't know enough". Usually they can do all the tasks delegated by somebody more senior in about six months. granted they don't quit it's usually a good buy.
True.
But then again, gentoomen tend to die at a relatively early age due to health issues (horrible diet combined with no exercise = diabetes, obesity, you name it), in addition to being awkward and hard to be around. Also smelly.
Also, gentoomen are too lazy to do something about their NEET situation.
my thinkpad IS my waifu
True, however in modern times you have to see "less flexible" in a broader sense. The traditional family path is taken much less than 10-20 years ago. More people tend to delay this until their late 30's - 40's. However, people tend to settle in general around their 30's, thus taking a priority in location, payment, work hours, ... rather than projects, technology, free food, ... , hence being "less flexible" for the company.
Nothing. Ageism is just an excuse used by old incompetent fucks for why they can't find a job, just like how people in Sup Forums use affirmative action as an excuse for why the are still a neet.
Yes, you do have a point. There's also the question about salary though. Someone with less experience will not demand the same salary as someone who has several years of experience.
l have a 5 year old younger coworker. A few weeks ago the guy talked about how he was working on some task at home because he wanted to make sure it's finished in this sprint (yay agile).
Meanwhile I don't give two shits. Unless we get a clear message that "stakeholders need this by date X", there's no need to rush it. Better a good solution next sprint than a shitty one now.
yeah. thats why if you worked for me then you'd be delegating tasks to him and not the other way around.
Indeed, someone with less experience won't be negotiating their salary as much either as someone who does have the experience as they don't yet have the necessary negotiation experience nor the value estimation of their knowledge.
>Ageism is just an excuse used by old incompetent fucks
It's also a real thing when Intel fires people a couple of years before retirement, so they can get away cheaper.
Nobody fucking uses pension plans anymore.
yuck. engineers should start unionizing.
I'm a 30+ software dev consultant. I specialize in the industry sector (automotive, defence, rolling stock, aviation etc). I have to say I'm one of those that reduce the average age at work. The career path of a consultant is fucked. The only way to actually progress as a consultant is to become a project leader or selling other consultants. Or specialize in something really rare and sell yourself.
Oh and many don't recommend being a software consultant after the age of 50. It's more secure to latch on to some big enterprise. Not sure that's true because my firm have loads of 50+ software consultants. The oldest one not yet retired is 67 and we have one at 70 that comes in hourly every once in a while. He help with a 40 year old software product that no one but him (still alive) understands.
That's what people say to make themselves feel better because they can't get a job because they suck.
Someone who's got experience knows, at least more or less, their market value. New grads can be tricked into "you have much to learn", and if they're self-taught or from a low-tier school, can be desperate enough that pretty much anything you offer over peanut-level will sound like dream come true for them.
Yup. When interviewing for my last job, I was told that my job before that was essentially nothing more than dicking around with a personal project and thus I didn't deserve the same salary.
So I accepted less salary to get more relevant experience.
>consultant
Enjoy having no benefits cuck. You are literally the equivalent of a prostitute; the company just throws you away after it busts a nut in your boipussy,
>No idea if it's the case in grownup world though- can't see a bank or someone just hiring in retarded grads to do financial engineering
user that works in industry sector. Everyone are balding (yes even the young 20 something people) and every drone dress the same. Everyone looks like the engineer archetype. The ages range in the entire working life span but with more old people.
Low entry level salaries and poor salary progression if you don't change jobs or company. You need to change company once every 3 to 5 years your first 15 working years or youngsters getting hired today will earn more than you.
Have to reach wizard level before 30, then you will be fine. Some one like Rich Hickey.
The reality is he still browses Sup Forums and posts memes he has saved on his computer to reflect how he feels.
It's a sad, worthless life and deep down he knows he should commit suicide.
I bet you just had bad luck
30+ ex-consultant here, just got a new job at a steady company. I 100% agree on on the career path and will give you this major tip: If you did aren't in some leading position by this age, get the hell out.
Software consultancies are terrible for your career path unless you either suck up to higher management, help with leads (eg. new company income) or plow many after-work hours into projects which the consultancy company can use as a nice profit turn-over.
If you are in a non-leading position at your 30's, you'll become too expensive for them to maintain and they'll drop you somewhere in a terrible project until you give up and go somewhere else. They are ONLY interesting for graduates to improve and learn industry skills necessary for other jobs.
I luckily had gotten proper projects myself and got the hell out before i'd get to the momentum in which i'd become too expensive (i was moving up though in their company). Now i got a much more interesting job with a much better wage and benefits.
...
happy new year to you, too
My first full-time dev salary was comparable to what some supermarkets offered to cashiers with a few years of experience.
Benefits can be nice, but be sure to know their value. If I get to choose between:
1. Paid X, get benefit worth Y
2. Paid X + Y without benefit
Then option 2 is pretty much always better. If I really want the thing, I can get it myself; if not, I can use the money for something else.
>7 weeks paid vacation each year
>only have to be at the consultant firm office for 20 hours a week when between contracts
>full pay when between contracts
>as a senior employee you can do pretty much what the fuck you want on these 20 hours when between contracts
>don't have to work on "squeeze" days or days before holidays (yes gets paid)
>2 weeks paid leave over Christmas
>all travel and travel time to contractors paid for
>paid company car I may use privately
>free phone with unlimited voice and data that I may use privately
>private pension
Yes my benefits suck. Only government sector have better vacation plans.
Defined Benefits Gov Pension
you faglords should move to infosec
mad cash here... I don't even have experience and got a high paying job
Are you dumb
If you're 30 and don't have some sort of steady job then no one will hire you.
That's just common sense
>infosec
There's also only like two available jobs in the entire country compared to development jobs.
>7 weeks paid vacation each year
And how many hours do you work each week for those 7 weeks?
>only have to be at the consultant firm office for 20 hours a week when between contracts
>full pay when between contracts
>as a senior employee you can do pretty much what the fuck you want on these 20 hours when between contracts
>don't have to work on "squeeze" days or days before holidays (yes gets paid)
Seniors have more time than junior's during benching but be sure that they'll do their damn best to make you bench time as short as possible. Also bench time gets to be a real shore after a month.
>2 weeks paid leave over Christmas
That's unique to your company
>all travel and travel time to contractors paid for
>paid company car I may use privately
>free phone with unlimited voice and data that I may use privately
>private pension
You can easily get that too with a normal job
I'm not impressed...sorry
I mean, just see what's happening: some random infosec company can blame the russians for everything that happened to some political party. then "security" agencies will believe your shit, and, even more, they will keep repeating your bullshit as THE truth.
of course, this means $$$$$$$$$$$$$
start your own company, hire some infosec rockstars, bullshit your way to the top...
Sometimes you have to accept shitty contracts yes. But if I were full time employee the risk of being thrown into a shitty project is very real.
I get plenty of work experience and contacts. I've been at 20 different companies by now. The sector where I specialzie is relatively small so eventually you are going to know a majority of people there. If I wanted full time at any previous contractor I just have to make the call.
And I guess the market for consultants is weird here. The consultant firm actually makes more money off senior consultants. And being a consultant means you aren't really the loyal type. My salary is nowadays pretty much decided on how many outside work activities I attend to. "Hey our group is going on a paid weekend trip to Italy. Are you coming?". I can live with that.
I get government pension here too because it's mandatory. The private pension part is an extra benefit. Not everyone in the business get a private pension.
>falling for the pension scams
Then you are in a lucky position i must say, having a small specialized market nets you a strong network and a good business margin. That's a position to keep.
Management is aids, rather be a senior lead sysadmin then killing myself in management.
>And how many hours do you work each week for those 7 weeks?
My standard work week is 40 hours by law and no they can't circumvent that. I may be ordered to work up to 250 hours overtime each year. Note that any full time employee where I have contracts are under the same obligations.
So far I have at most been ordered to work 50 extra hours over a two month period. The employees where I had a contract with had to work 60.
>Seniors have more time than junior's during benching but be sure that they'll do their damn best to make you bench time as short as possible.
Indeed. The longest I've been benched is 4 weeks.
>Also bench time gets to be a real shore after a month.
You sure do get lazy and I usually burn any flex hours I have left in my flex bank during these periods.
>That's unique to your company
Yeah. Just got to find the good ones.
>You can easily get that too with a normal job
The larger the enterprise the harder it is to actually be compensated. Most of those benefits I listed are often reserved for bosses and other important people.
>I'm not impressed...sorry
OK. The fact is that if I took employment at any contractors work place I would at best get 5 weeks paid vacation and no time off during Christmas. I enjoy having time off so working one more month a year would really suck.
LOL
> 30
> Australian
> Get poached by American company
> Cash bonus, all work visas taken care of
> Work visa means American company has to pay me more than local wage
> Move and steal American jobs, collect dead presidents
> GOOG / FB / LinkedIn / AMZN / MSFT recuiters hounding me to jump ship every week
> Eleventy-billion startups offering stupid amounts of money to jump ship
Oh lols, 30 sure does suck being an SDE.
I think if you're 30 and can't get work in the field, you either joined too late (Graduated late twenties or something), you didn't apply yourself in worth-while companies (not paying attention to your CV), or you weren't meant to work in this field (Go do something else).
I've had on first hand seen these infosec rockstars do their bullshit trade in the IT business. These fucking idiots are disturbing normal business processes with menial security tasks and giving worthless reports which you can get on your own by 1-2 weeks of reading on infosec and executing a couple of pentest tools...fucking clowns...
The government pension is a pyramid scheme and the population is too retarded to see it. The private pension part is what will keep me from starving when the government pension scheme collapses.
I spent the entire week playing vidya. We only had a couple of issues because sysadmins are dumb as bricks here so there wasn't anything for me to do.
Usually when I have work, it gets banged out in a week and I don't work for the next week while everyone is testing.
I'm utterly fucked if I have to get a job somewhere else because my skills have rotted by now.
Private pensions are a pyramid scheme as well.
I find that social competence and knowing people weighs higher than actual software dev competence. I've never done a coding test in my life yet get hired wherever I want despite being 30+.
Not really. I choose where the money is placed myself.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. I should have added that to my post.
I don't see a lot of 30+ SDEs who aren't socially adept, and the ones I remember who weren't fell by the wayside before 30 and went on to do other things.
Another reason you aren't employable at 30: Being meh, and being happy with it. You have to stay hungry.
>My standard work week is 40 hours by law and no they can't circumvent that. I may be ordered to work up to 250 hours overtime each year. Note that any full time employee where I have contracts are under the same obligations.
So far I have at most been ordered to work 50 extra hours over a two month period. The employees where I had a contract with had to work 60.
Exactly, I don't know which country you work in, but in my country you get 20 days as a normal employee for 38 hours a week. With 40 hours a week the company compensates it with an extra day / month, resulting in 32 days. You can get extra days above those in your wage. I had 2 extra days, this making it 34 days a week. However, the company does expect you to work some hours after work for those 2 extra days. Thus netting you 0 on "extra days".
On the 60 hours on the contracted employees => they are being exploited and should report that to their union.
>The larger the enterprise the harder it is to actually be compensated. Most of those benefits I listed are often reserved for bosses and other important people.
I disagree, i'm the ex-consultant and I got a contract on a large enterprise with better benefits (all of them) than i had as a consultant. And I'm certainly not the only ex-consultant with the same result (looking at my ex-collegues etc.) . If you see the wage flow on consultancy vs normal jobs, you'll see that consultancies start higher in the early working years but stagnate faster around the 30's.
>OK. The fact is that if I took employment at any contractors work place I would at best get 5 weeks paid vacation and no time off during Christmas. I enjoy having time off so working one more month a year would really suck.
As I said in the first reply, you work more "official" hours than a normal employee, hence it seems you get more vacation. However, in reality, if you compare your total work hours, you'll see that the net benefit in hours is marginal.
Tip: instead of playing vidya all the time, do your own projects, either for skill learning or to get an extra buck in the pocket. Either way, wasting your time playing vidya will bite you back hard in the long term. Very hard.
as someone who is probably going to graduate at the age of 23
this thread is scary
Please tell me that tech companies still have diversity quotas that I can exploit.
Sadly, I agree, when i did my interviewing at the companies, my verbal skills were more important than my technical skills. As HR and even tech interviewers are looking more for a fit in the company/team rather than the skillsets.
I hardly had any technical question asked to me because I explained my past and my own projects well and with enthousiasm.
Having said that, I really hate these standard out-of-the-book technical questions as they hardly test your practical knowledge in the industry and they tend to be taken out of context of what the company thinks is correct. I was perplexed a couple of times with the "correct" answers they gave me.
Rather give me a realistic problem that I can solve in an hour or so that they and I can discuss after. Much more fun than those run-of-the mill bullshit tech questions...
>Either way, wasting your time playing vidya will bite you back hard in the long term.
I'm waiting for the next IT bust/shakeup/economic meltdown to decide if I really want to stick around. Plus I haven't found an idea I'm passionate about that keeps me up at night thinking about.
And it doesn't bother me that I'm lazy here. They were paying the guy I replaced $95k and he wrote SQL injection/XSS vulns in just about everything he did, as well as had folders named "Backup_yyyyddmm" on the production servers. If that monkey can reach retirement age with $95k, I figure I'll be fine as long as I don't lose my shit one day.
I can always "downgrade" to IT analyst and application support. That still grants a very good quality of life in most of America.
>no one will hire you and you can't progress beyond Senior Software Engineer
That depends on the firm. Where I work, our programmers have 6 levels: I, II, III, Senior, Principle, Senior Principle.
But to your actual question, you either stagnate at Senior/Principle or get promoted into management.
Developer Operations Manager, Project Manager / Lead, etc.
>W-what happens to you as a dev after you reach 30
work as a consultant and get paid 3x more you dumb fuck
>However, the company does expect you to work some hours after work for those 2 extra days. Thus netting you 0 on "extra days".
No one expects me to work extra. Everyone expects me to work 40 hours a week. No more or less. Yes some places have reduced work time (38 hours). However they still work 40 hours and have "squeeze" days off instead.
>On the 60 hours on the contracted employees => they are being exploited and should report that to their union.
More like it's too expensive to have consultants work ordered overtime. Plus the contracts often state 105% hours of normal work time so consultants may save up flex hours if they want. Or so the company can request over time without renegotiating the contract.
>I disagree
Me too. The places I'm contracted with don't have paid time while travelling by air plane. I do though as a consultant.
>you'll see that consultancies start higher in the early working years but stagnate faster around the 30's.
Yes this is a danger. But the same applies if you stick with the same enterprise. I have a 20% higher salary than my friends that stayed with the same enterprise. The unions actually keep their salary progression low because it's regulated to something silly like max 2% a year.
>As I said in the first reply, you work more "official" hours than a normal employee, hence it seems you get more vacation. However, in reality, if you compare your total work hours, you'll see that the net benefit in hours is marginal.
I'm not. Even if they have a 38 hour work week I work less hours because I have the same squeeze days off, 2 more weeks paid vacation and 2 weeks paid leave over Christmas. I work on average 1 month less.
Can we agree to disagree? I'm a lazy fuck that want maximum pay for least effort. My current job gives me way more free time each year.
My uncle had to go job hunting again in his late 40s. He now works at Raytheon and is in his 50s as a principal.
Understandable, but use it rather as some general guidelines in the industry. You are 23 so you got your career ahead of you, lot's of options.
Some general tips:
- Your first job is very important, take your time looking for a good company with a proper reputation (use glassdoor.com), this will open doors for you in your further career
- Don't be scared to negotiate your wage, you don't have to come with ridiculous amounts, but you can negotiate to the average (or above) of the wage in the industry.
- When you negotiate (later in your career), always aim a bit higher than what you'd want, thus finding an agreement with the employer at your preferred wage
- Networking, you'll be working with people you can't stand, you'll be working with people who are fun to be with. The one's you can't stand you just manage professionally, be polite. The one's who are fun (and ambitious), you keep in your network (linkedin, facebook, email, ...).
- Work smart, not hard
You Dutch or something? If you haven't graduated before the age of 21 you are fucked and if you don't have your master before 23 you fucked up royally. Meanwhile where I live about 1/3 never bothers to take the bachelor and some decide a career change at 40 is a good thing because driving a truck sucks so they hit the desk and take bachelor in CS.
dude half this board is 15 year olds trying to be "scary"
>no one will hire you and you can't progress beyond Senior Software Engineer
If you haven't launched a unicorn startup by the age 30 then you deserve it
I'll probably be graduating by almost 30.
you idiots 30 isnt too old for anything
what the fuck is wrong with you people
>No one expects me to work extra. Everyone expects me to work 40 hours a week. No more or less. Yes some places have reduced work time (38 hours). However they still work 40 hours and have "squeeze" days off instead.
No one expects you to work extra, but unofficially, it'll help boost your career in the company well if you do. I'm not talking about the project you're in (which is indeed 40 hours, no more , no less), but I'm talking about the consultancy firm.
>More like it's too expensive to have consultants work ordered overtime. Plus the contracts often state 105% hours of normal work time so consultants may save up flex hours if they want. Or so the company can request over time without renegotiating the contract.
Agreed, consultants working overtime are indeed too expensive for clients.
>Yes this is a danger. But the same applies if you stick with the same enterprise. I have a 20% higher salary than my friends that stayed with the same enterprise. The unions actually keep their salary progression low because it's regulated to something silly like max 2% a year.
I completely agree with your on this statement, however this is more of a general application in the industry than specifically to a normal enterprise. If you are stagnating too long in any company, you should switch to another company. This is both for normal employees as well as consultants. It is very important for yourself to know your current worth in the industry (job position + years). It's a career death trap for many people to stay too long in the same comfortable position, thus becoming much less valuable in the industry. If you have a proper wage and position, stay. If you don't, switch.
>I'm not. Even if they have a 38 hour work week I ..... I work on average 1 month less.
Can we agree to disagree?
We can agree, if I were in your position, I would've done the same. Just be sure that they won't corner you somewhere later in your career (retain your value towards them!).
In Europe you normally graduate around 17-18 years. Then you either go bachelor (3 years) or master (4-5 years). So 23 years is certainly normal for a graduate.
This thread is full of morons...
You don't really have any experience as a programmer until like ten years in (i.e., 30+)
Seriously. At 30+ you just start being valuable, you make way more money.
Not surprised this thread is full of bitter losers and people who have no idea what they're talking about
>No one expects you to work extra, but unofficially, it'll help boost your career in the company well if you do. I'm not talking about the project you're in (which is indeed 40 hours, no more , no less), but I'm talking about the consultancy firm.
No they don't because such things can quickly become an expensive affair. Because if I get so stressed that I have to take sick leave the consultant firm is by law required to pay for my recovery and rehabilitation. It's even in their guidelines that the employees should have a healthy work life that can be combined with a healthy private life. I'm actually one of the odd ones that actually put in 40 hours a week because I don't have sick kids needing care.
>If you have a proper wage and position, stay. If you don't, switch.
Agreed. I constantly ask my friends what they make even though it's taboo. I could make more but that would mean I'd spend around 12 hours on a train each week doing unpaid travel to a bigger city.
>Just be sure that they won't corner you somewhere later in your career (retain your value towards them!).
The management and the CEO are good people. I'm kept in high regard due to good customer feedback. Since I'm a consultant though I'm very mobile. I'll switch jobs if the yearly salary talks don't turn out in a favourable way.
Yeah what I said. However in some countries in Northern Europe it's not strange if you see a 30+ taking a bachelor in CS and then actually getting a CS related job.
Are you even reading the thread? I'd say over half of the posts give the impression being old is not a problem for the career.
Well, you got yourself a good employer and position. Good for you, man!
On the salary talks, I guess if it's a lesser year for them, then a less favourable salary talk can be somewhat understandable.
The industry currently is harder than it was 10+ years ago. I agree with you that 30+ is the start when you're being valuable but the economy of today tends to make the job market harder as businesses need to maintain their production value. For IT/Higher Education jobs it's a smaller impact than other jobs, but it's still there.
>Well, you got yourself a good employer and position. Good for you, man!
Thank you!
>On the salary talks, I guess if it's a lesser year for them, then a less favourable salary talk can be somewhat understandable.
During bad years you have to accept less. But if it's a recurrent thing then you have evaluate if staying or leaving is a good idea. I'd say the same goes for any work place though. And it's certainly risky staying with the same employer too long. Especially if they do something no other company does.
Have friends that have sticked with the same company for soon 15 years doing graphical programming. If they try to change jobs now they would be treated as junior devs.
15 years of graphical programming, holy shit
Got my first webdev job at 30. There's too much demand for you not to get hired. Might be different in Silicon Valley but I'm not a burger so I don't care about that place.