>On Monday, a US federal appeals court sided against a former Philadelphia police officer who has been in jail 17 months because he invoked his Fifth Amendment right against compelled self-incrimination. He had refused to comply with a court order commanding him to unlock two hard drives the authorities say contain child porn.
>In deciding against Rawls, the court of appeals found that the constitutional rights against being compelled to testify against oneself were not being breached. That's because the appeals court, like the police, agreed that the presence of child porn on his drives was a "foregone conclusion." The Fifth Amendment, at its most basic level, protects suspects from being forced to disclose incriminating evidence. In this instance, however, the authorities said they already know there's child porn on the drives, so Rawls' constitutional rights aren't compromised.
What are you gonna do when they ask you to decrypt your harddrive? Decrypt to prove you are innocent or stay in jail forever even though you are innocent? If you actually have nothing to hide and decrypt it under court order or for police investigation, why do you encrypt it in the first place? In case of theft or robbery? You have nothing to hide anyway so why do you care if someone steals it? Your hardware is gone anyway.. :/
HOW CAN THEY JAIL YOU IF YOU TELL THEM YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE PASSWORD BECAUSE YOU HAVE IT ON PIECE OF PAPER AND YOU CANNOT FIND IT
Owen Lee
>What do you think of all this?
The US legal system sure is fucked.
Lucas Wilson
>The authorities, however, said no testimony was needed from Rawls. Rather, they said, (PDF) "he can keep his passwords to himself" and "produce his computer and hard drives in an unencrypted state."
What did they mean by this?
Levi Peterson
I'm definitely against pedophilia (real pedophilia not statutory rape) but this is plain retarded.
I mean how is them saying 'they know there's child porn' an actual proof of there being it on his hard drive? How do they know such things are true when they can't even access the hard drives?
Easton Carter
>he authorities said they already know there's child porn on the drives If they know there is child porn in there then they have childporn saved in their brains, they should be imprisoned.
Matthew Butler
GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT HAIL HAIL FREEDONIA
Daniel Mitchell
Seems like this guy is going to get one fuck huge lawsuit going assuming he doesn't settle.
Jordan Richardson
read the article, they were monitoring his activities and his sister said he showed her such images. But I'm suspicious of it because they still haven't charged him on it.
Justin Rodriguez
>cross us border >carry an empty harddrive >border police asks me to decrypt my harddrive >can't decrypt because there isn't anything to decrypt >get jailed indefinitely
Jaxson Wright
Guilty until proven innocent Who says what's innocent or not? Anti gov agenda could be considered guilty.
Brandon Phillips
Good.
Bentley Jenkins
Nothing to hide so nothing to fear, encryption is just a sign of guilt. Only criminals need to hide themselves.
Lucas Myers
Yet the government and any business worth anything encrypts their shit. That really gets those neurons activated.......
Jose Bailey
Hey reddit Go back to
Logan Foster
Murica xdddd
Joseph Robinson
this is actually pretty scary desu, americucks are getting fucked boiss
Josiah Robinson
The laws are increasingly open to interpretation it seems.
Time to write a nice little dd script to nuke those drives on boot. One cant decrypt something that no longer exists.
Luke Bell
But user, I don't have my hard drives encrypted.
Jackson Moore
I think I'm glad I live in a first world country and have rights.
Oliver Wright
If it gets to the point that they are now demanding you to decrypt your drives, you have already failed multiple times on earlier steps for giving them any reason to suspect you have something illicit hiding there.
All signs point that this guy is guilty, hashes, sister, activity online. Even if he managed to nuke his drives, they would find a way to indict him.
Logan Robinson
>they already know there's child porn on the drives So, provide your evidence and get it into court? Prove he's guilty. Oh, wait, you can't because you have nothing and you hang on "he's drive is encrypted" straw so your case won't drown like a rock.
Jeremiah Johnson
>((((("""""murikan law""""")))))
James Collins
> tfw the new Apple file system will have encryption by default > tfw it's built in > tfw cyber forensics will get BTFO > tfw american law will require you to remember your password > tfw if you don't remember, you will get jailed forever TOP KEK, US is really a meme
Camden James
You guys are fucking dumb, the huge amount of files had matching hashes of known child pornography.
Colton Flores
>americans
Caleb Russell
what files, you dumb idiot? drive was fully encrypted. You can't prove there are any files on it
Bentley Nguyen
>The laws are increasingly open to interpretation it seems
That is indeed what a common law system entails, a judge who is well versed in matters of present technology will rule differently than one who does not.
What is completely retarded is the ruling by the court of appeal on their interpretation of the 5th amendment. They should all be hung for that gross travesty of justice.
A ruling like that doesn't only affect those who are accused of downloading child pornography but anyone who uses software security.
Ryder Bell
That's what they say. They need actual evidence to prove it which they can't have it. If they can't prove it then he is not guilty. Hence this discussion.
Landon Robinson
>Muh ebil police Laws the law niggers and it's just. You just want encryption so you can break the law. If there were secure asymmetrical backdoors justice could be served
Jordan Ward
Are you implying you want to give Russians and koreans access to the US nuclear ordnance just to justify them having access to your child pornography?
Camden Turner
>Laws the law niggers and it's just
No, it isn't you idiot. Take a course in law when you're done finishing high school before you make idiotic statements like this.
Jack Smith
> they already know there's child porn on the drives I think I know there's CP on your drives, OP. Stay where you are, prepare your anus.
Connor Ross
nuclear computer systems aren't even connected to the outside world at all
Connor Roberts
If you think the Russians or Koreans can crack access to Nuclear Ordinance through the internet then arguing with people on Sup Forums is the least of your worries. I'd argue you should be more focused on not forgetting how to breath.
Juan Bailey
These were my thoughts as well. If he was a pedophile, it should be easy to find proof which doesn't involve decryption.
Leo Rivera
>get nervous and type the wrong password 3 times >get locked out
Carson Bell
>however, the authorities said they already know there's child porn on the drives, so Rawls' constitutional rights aren't compromised.
How do they know?
Jaxson Baker
Why would they need to crack it? The US government should be just as public as they expect their citizens to be. We should all have access to nuclear launch controls actually!
Ayden Brooks
Come on, i think we all know.
Logan Sanchez
Encryption is useful for storing customer information, personal financial information, corporate or technical details of cutting edge tech, etc.
But all of these things could be shown to the feds, since it would be highly illegal for them to sell or share said information
Caleb Thomas
>libcucks are defending degeneracy rather than celebrating based police doing justice This is why we need trump, he'll clean up liberal cuckoldry.
David Gonzalez
BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT
Jeremiah White
>cucked by government
Brody Lee
This means they could jail anyone undefinitely just by raiding some poor man house and then encrypting his hdd.
Nicholas Martinez
You can't just raid houses beyond reasonable doubt.
Jaxson Johnson
>Trump builds a wall and writes 2 EO's to ban Pedro Mohammed >Pedro Mohammeds now carry encrypted but empty hardrives as a matter of principle >Checkmate deportation
Eli Davis
Well, you can jail people by "finding" drugs during raid, too.
Blake Young
You pedos are going down, trump is going to stop the immoral use of encryption and linux to make america great while you degenerates get rightfully shot by police.
Sebastian Bennett
5th amendment? No?
Noah Lopez
If he really did have CP he's better off keeping the drives encrypted. It could get him off the hook in the future if he appeals again and his case is overturned. At the very least it will cast enough doubt on his guilt to slightly reduced the chance of getting shanked in prison... but he is a cop so that kind of undoes it.
Hunter Martin
You can if they're Mexican.
Jayden Jackson
Is the the one where they see the pedo shit in the "encryption code"
Jaxon Martin
>Forensic examination also disclosed that Doe [Rawls] had downloaded thousands of files known by their "hash" values to be child pornography. seems legit
Charles Green
Spics don't deserve constitutional rights, just further proof encryption is for degenerates since non-whites use it to hide their criminal activity.
Thomas Smith
>his sister said he showed her such images
Accusations from a single unreliable party. >teehee oniisan, now you'll regret not sharing that last haagen daaz with me
Elijah Wilson
This doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't the hash be completely different from theirs since he used a different key? If they can match the hash then they would have to know the key
Kayden Butler
>Defending a spic Fuck off cuck
Jaxson White
Why they can't use this "legit" information to get him into real jail? They had 3 years to use it.
Shit is fucked up and bullshit... but at least I can carry a gun and make racist jokes without going to jail.
Ethan Ward
>calling a nigger a spic >still saying cuck I think you know where you need to go.
Christian Morris
Uhh what about hidden containers?
Also two fucking hard drives for cp? Thats one dedicated pedo. Prolly was into gay baby rape.
Ryan Watson
He had a spic sounding name
Xavier Cox
lol wait until the police find hashes tied to bomb making and school GPS locations then arrest you on terrorist charges, pleb.
Chase Parker
They don't have proof but they're imprisoning him indefinitely anyways because they want him to disclose proof against himself. Truly the land of the free.
Zachary Walker
if you bothered to read the fucking official complaint, you would realize there is a lot more going than that you fucking tool
'hidden' containers are still detectable
Camden Cruz
Rawls?
Evan Watson
>the authorities said they already know What. If they already knew why did they even need his drive in the first place?
I'm assuming in that case he confessed? If he didn't, this is literally a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario.
Jonathan Richardson
Encrypt it in a way that you can claim that you're physically incapable of decrypting it later.
Luis Jones
read the complaint
Luke Hill
>gps lol no never
Matthew Williams
>Even if he managed to nuke his drives, they would find a way to indict him.
clearly this is not the case
Lucas Hill
Is a court order different than a warrant? Because can't the law pretty much search anything assuming they have a warrant? I don't see what would make hard drives different from any other personal property.
Easton Williams
>if you bothered to read the fucking official complaint, you would realize there is a lot more going than that you fucking tool
not really, they are holding him in prison for not unencrypting his drives, period
Cooper Nguyen
This shit is going to end in the defendants favor eventually. No one is ever found innocent in court, only guilty or not guilty. They can't prove he's guilty so they have nothing.
Nathan Miller
read the complaint
Carson White
>Is a court order different than a warrant? Because can't the law pretty much search anything assuming they have a warrant? I don't see what would make hard drives different from any other personal property.
They can't search encrypted drives because they are encrypted
why can't he just say he forgot the password
James Gonzalez
See foregone conclusion doctrine. See
Aiden Long
I did
there is other shit going on giving them reason to suspect him, but at the end of the day literally the only reason he is in prison is for not decrypting the drive
no pedo charges
Jackson Thomas
I did read, traffic monitoring data is not conclusive proof and either is his sister speaking against him. I'm not saying he shouldn't get fucked tho, just that they are going to dangerously extreme to get him arrested.
Parker Smith
And the document explains why he is being held for not encrypting, which in this case makes perfect sense.
Christian Sanders
Doe voluntarily provided the password for the Apple iPhone 5S, but refused to provide the passwords to decrypt the Apple Mac Pro computer or the external hard drives. Despite Doe’s refusal, forensic analysts discovered the password to decrypt the Mac Pro Computer, but could not decrypt the external hard drives. Forensic examination of the Mac Pro revealed an image of a pubescent girl in a sexually provocative position and logs showing that the Mac Pro had been used to visit sites with titles common in child exploitation, such as “toddler_cp,” “lolicam,” “tor-childporn,” and “pthc.”(App. 39.) The Forensic examination also disclosed that Doe had downloaded thousands of files known by their “hash” values to be child pornography. The files, however, were not on the Mac Pro, but instead had been stored on the encrypted external hard drives.Accordingly, the files themselves could not be accessed.
Aaron Harris
But if he did encrypt the drive, do you have any doubt there would be pedo charges?
Again, foregone conclusion doctrine.
Camden Bell
> (You) >See foregone conclusion doctrine. >See
but they are making him testify against himself by providing the password, that's 5ammendment
Justin Stewart
Goddamn OP, have you no reading reading comprehension?
You can't put someone in Jail because he has an encrypted hard drive. But in this case they got: -the IP logs which showed he downloaded CP -at least one unencrypted CP image on his pc -the hash sums that give evidence of the CP pics
It's not like they piced up some random dude, they already know he's done it but can't access the files.
Also: >Decrypt to prove you are innocent or stay in jail forever even though you are innocent?
Of course getting free.
>If you actually have nothing to hide and decrypt it under court order or for police investigation, why do you encrypt it in the first place?
Make it as hard as possible to get my data. That's like asking "why are you using a belt when a crash with 150 miles per hour would kill you anyway?"
>You have nothing to hide anyway so why do you care if someone steals it?
Because it's not their business, apparently?
Samuel Smith
>not reading the link provided >maintaining an untenable position solely on principle
Lucas Jenkins
That's not the issue here, were not defending the pedo. We're worried that imprisoning people because they refuse to decrypt their data becomes normal.
Isaiah Perez
>And the document explains why he is being held for not encrypting, which in this case makes perfect sense.
do you mean not decrypting?
he could have forgot the password, regardless making him state the password is testimony against himself, handing over the drives satisfies the court order, making him testify against himself violates his rights
Michael Fisher
>But if he did encrypt the drive, do you have any doubt there would be pedo charges?
do you mean decrypt?
I don't know for all I know he deleted all the cp before the cops got there and the drives are blank upon decryption
if the conclusion is so forgone and they have so much evidence against him, prosecute without the drives
Zachary Rodriguez
yes, not decrypting
and no, you are wrong. he gave up his rights when he downloaded cp, sorry kiddo
Daniel Nelson
that Berkeley link does not work for me, i get a blank page
Anthony Hernandez
Better to just let a pedo rot in jail for eternity.
Evan Gomez
>and no, you are wrong. he gave up his rights when he downloaded cp, sorry kiddo
allegedly
and no the fuck he didnt, he still has the right to a trial, the right not to incriminate himself and many other rights such as not to be cruelly and unusually punished
Hudson Murphy
Doe, however, stated that he could not remember the passwords necessary to decrypt the hard drives and entered several incorrect passwords during the forensic examination. Based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Magistrate Judge found that Doe remembered the passwords needed to decrypt the hard drives but chose not to reveal them because of the devices’ contents.
Dylan Reed
Nope. Read the complaint.
Cooper Anderson
So if it was a foregone conclusion that the drives contained CP, why did they need to check them?
Jose Allen
>Better to just let a pedo rot in jail for eternity.
I don't care that the guy is a pedo, if this were drug smuggling info he allegedly had or noods of his wife or whatever the same thing applies, he should not have to provide testimony against himself
Isaac Ortiz
That's not how constitutional rights work. You don't just lose your 5th amendment rights for any reason.
If the cops KNEW without a doubt that he had it on there why don't they prosecute him for the crime? Why do they need the drives decrypted? To prove their case? That means they don't actually know he has it on there which means his 5th is being breached
>The argument runs like this. The Fifth Amendment generally bars forced incrimination. But under the foregone conclusion exception, the government can compel a person to produce anything (say, a car) where it reasonably knows the car exists. So too with encrypted computers. The government can force a person to decrypt a hard drive because it always knows that an encrypted hard drive has a corresponding unencrypted version. Ergo, forcing decryption and production of a now-unencrypted computer is a foregone conclusion and, therefore, constitutional.
