"I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service...

"I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream. When Windows was mainstream they hated on it. Rationally, Windows does many things well and deserves respect for those. And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too. The very same muppets would write about how terrible it was that IOS/Android had no competition and then how terrible it was that Canonical was investing in (free software!) compositing and convergence. Fuck that shit." - Mark Shuttleworth

Sup Forums COMPLETELY AND UNDENIABLY
B T F O
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Moralfags pls go.

>t. thin skin
He just wanted to build his own ecosystem on desktop/mobile and gave up without any clear reason.
And shitposters posts shitposts. Nothing to do.

>I did, personally, attempt to get the convergence movement going in both GNOME and KDE. In both cases, the ideas were resoundingly rejected.

>We hired designers initially, but the feedback from GNOME (well, Red Hat really ;)) was "who do you think you are to show up and tell us what GNOME should look like when you are not bringing code". And that's fair enough really, it's their desktop. Although I would say, code got rejected pretty aggressively too ;)

>In the KDE case, it was more about the personality of the leader at the time, who I think felt threatened and insecure.

>I did, personally, attempt to get the convergence movement going in both GNOME and KDE. In both cases, the ideas were resoundingly rejected.
So, wait is Gnome just shit, Is it not even trying to be mobile?

I feel the exact same way after 10 years of using Linux.

I just can't recommend anybody joining this community anymore, it got so toxic (and sometimes you catch yourself being toxic, when responding to those people)

I'm really considering using Linux only for Server and IOT stuff, because I don't see desktop going anywhere in Linux. Too many faggots wanting to keep it a l337sekretklub

He's right desu senpai

They don't care because the NSA pays them to stay on desktop.

Shut the fuck up phoronix shill

Anyone who's been part of the Linux community for a long time knows he's right.

Newfags want to treat Linux like some religion with shitty distros like Arch built on shitty philosophies that even Stallman doesn't agree with.

>>I did, personally, attempt to get the convergence movement going in both GNOME and KDE. In both cases, the ideas were resoundingly rejected.
he seems to have never considered the possibility that "convergence" (which if I remember right is the proposition that there should be one UI across desktops, laptops, tablets, and phones) was a shitty idea. It's perfectly possible to want free-software competition for iOS/Android but also think that whatever software that is should be entirely separate from normal desktop stuff.

I'd also add that graphic-design folk subtract value, not add to it. Function needs to go over form, not vice-versa.

no one cares shittlecuck

go rip off debian for the hard parts and continue wasting money on some shitty code that requires obtuse CLA that may or may not allow you to re-license contributions to nonfree software.

also the distro just sucks.
Debian and fedora have much better sane defualts and seem to actually work unlike ubuntu.

Are freetards the most cancerous community? I'm really starting to think so after Shuttleworth's revelations.

well he's 100% right

most of you fags dont actually care about free software, or even good software, you just care about being technology hipsters and using whatever is the least popular.

he is not right, he's just butthurt no one wants to sign his faggy CLA and deal with his bullshit.

DELET

>freetards complaining about free software all the time
>can't go 1 day without some zealotry faggotry from them

>Shuttleworth's revelations.
>people hate on mainstream
>this happens in every aspect of life (art, politics, science, sports...)
>but me? no im a self righteous faggot so i could never think of doing that
>so how dare my own community to fall for this seemingly natural trait of the modern human

>people who know shit-all about anything spouting off shit

protip, people sanctioned off ubuntu for a reason.

Sup Forums is the ultimate proof of free software community cancer

>irrational hatred
>bundling spyware with the OS
Just because it's mainstream doesn't make it shit. It's shit because of a whole bunch of reasons. It just so happens that when something becomes popular there's a lot of monetary pressure to add in stupid fucking bullshit like adware and spyware, or adding layers upon layers of legacy shit to make sure customers don't become unhappy.

Why does no one understand that maybe mobile and desktops don't need the same DE and convergence is an awful goal? Microsoft almost killed themselves with the abortion that was Windows 8. Why would Shuttleworth think he could succeed where Microsoft failed?

What;s worse is now he's just throwing the baby out with the bath water. People don't want convergence? Kill Unity 8 and Mir and fire everyone, fuck everything you've spent the past years working on. What a retard.

given that websites can do it, there is virtually no reason why DEs can't.

the problem is toolkits that aren't browsers, are basically shit at responsive design.

>Shuttleworth abandons Wayland, Unity
>Dumps millions into GNOME, Wayland, LibreOffice
>The year of a usable Linux distro has begun.

Is there a backstory behind Ubuntu/KDE drama?

wrong

he's dumping his money to compete with CoreOS and RedHat Openshift/Atomic.

because the new hotness is kubernetes super container clusters for maximum scale.

I doubt ubuntu can actually deliver anything meaningful to container services though.

>irrational hatred
if you made something perfect, why bother changing it now? clearly it wasn't "irrational"

>kubernetes super container clusters for maximum scale.
What?

He'd never do that because he and Canonical have such a massive case of not-invented-here syndrome. Unity, Mir, Upstart, probably plenty of other minor things I'm forgetting.

>doesn't even know about kubes

get a job already, fucking neets.

Why do dumb illiterates and those generally willfully ignorant get mad that I can comfortable use the terminal? And that I fail to see the merits of ease-of-use bloat that only fosters illiteracy?

My ubuntu installs have never not worked, of course I built it up from a minimal iso just like I do Debian. Maybe if you weren't using a deprecated DE you would be fine.

>muh toxic community
mate, you have toxic parts in any community, the thing is, you can easily ignore them. Join a better community than the special ed schoolyard that is Sup Forums.

I don't hate Windows because it's mainstream. I hate it because it's a pain in the ass to develop for.

Java/C#/C++ are not too difficult. Use a good library to make it cross-platform. Boost works on almost any system.

I also hate windows because when i change a motherboard in a computer, it should just work not bluescreen, or worse, require me to fucking call some slow ass phone system to revalidate my software license that cost anywhere from $100-200

windows fucking sucks ass.

>using whatever is the least popular
I don't think many people care about that at all, otherwise they'd be using templeos or some shit. People care more about the whole freedom thing, fuck big corp etc

I'm glad to hear that.

I've just seen a lot of people leave happier with Fedora over Ubuntu.

literally the only problem with fedora is it "too secure" by default for people who can't be assed to make selinux policies or firewalld services.

This

This. Arch Linux sucks and needs to be put down already.

Don't listen to him. Regardless of their practices, Canonical puts out a fine product. One of the few I would actually recommend to anyone with moderate tech abilities.

>shitty distros like Arch built on shitty philosophies that even Stallman doesn't agree with.
What philosophies does Arch push? I'm not familiar with Arch. I thought Ubuntu was the only bad guy in Linux.

I'm not talking user land software, I'm talking drivers. Although with regards to the user space, compiling some libraries on Windows is a pain.

Just pirate it, dumbass.

>Dude doesn't realize that there's a bunch of conflicting ideologies about how software ecosystems should work and how interfaces should be designed within the linux community.
>Shows up with a team of mainstream designers and starts pushing for things with a history of contention.
>Doesn't understand why they're getting push back.
>"lel they must just hate me cause I'm popular"

I love the open source community because its exactly like the old socialist clubs i used to visit. a bunch of whining and nothing ever gets done because theres no organisation or agreement

I'm not that guy but Arch believes in keeping the operating system as simple as possible from the perspective of the people maintaining the Operating System.
>If [feature] makes it more difficult to maintain Arch, then remove it.
Hence no installer, single binary/library/etc... directories, SystemD, etc...

Arch has a small team of volunteer developers trying to maintain a rolling release distro. They do this to make their job easier, not to make it easier for users.

Their philosophy is basically not being ubuntu and not providing a functional installer and breaking your OS with forced updates every few weaks. So basically only the cool kids can use this poc

>just infect your windows install with slavshit botnet, dumbass

ya no thanks faggot. I'll just not use windows from now on faggot.

the devs are literally too lazy to maintain even a CLI installer and so force their users to copy paste commands to install their distro

Arch doesn't really have a philosophy other than making things as easy as possible for the developers. This is partially why the AUR is so popular, the entire focus is on development rather than the end user experience.

>not being Ubuntu
"being Ubuntu" in this context means customizing the fuck out of every package in order to provide a consistently designed experience. This includes making decisions for the user instead of providing them with customization (Remember: Every time you give the user a choice you aren't doing your job as a designer). Not only is this sort of thing repulsive to older Linux users but it's impossible to pull off in a rolling release distro. Also it complicates the fuck out of your OS and makes it far more likely that other packages will need modifications in order to work.

>not providing a functional installer
Shit's hard and makes the OS more complicated, all you're doing is introducing more things that could break. Especially on a rolling release system it's better for users to understand how to do stuff like chroot because they'll need to know that in order to fix their installation in case their system becomes unbootable (note, no linux OS provides a rescue disk like Windows).

>Breaking your OS
That shit only happens to people who are careless with their systems or don't understand what's going on.

>forced updates
There are no forced updates in Arch. You may choose to update whenever you want, whether it's every few hours or every few years or never. It's entirely up to you.

>forced updates
????
What forced updates? Also the only package you ever HAVE to upgrade to my knowledge is pacman itself, they simply say partial upgrades are unsupported, but if you know what you're doing you can still perform partial upgrades.

very well put

I've been using vanilla LTS ubuntu now for years with telemetry turned on because back around 2010 I thought about "what do I want to get out of linux?".

The answer then was I was a poorfag and wanted windows for free.
The answer now? Basically the most secure, easy to use, productive environment I can. In other words windows (although I could accept Mac fags inserting Mac as their answer here).

Even now, the irrational interest in KVM and passthrough GPUs is because users want windows software or Mac software.

Couple that with the neckbeards trying to solve political/policy issues (my freedom/privacy) with technology (my invisible encryption forcefield is impenetrable) and yeah, shuttleworth is right.

same

So it's just as easy as an installer? That's brilliant!

...

freetard autists write the best, most relevant code. cannot refute.

>And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too.

No -- the hatred was entirely about the Unity desktop.

Unity was based on a retarded idea -- let's take the smartphone screen design and also use it as the basis for a workstation desktop screen.

It takes no brains at all to realize that a 5 inch smartphone screen needs a whole different layout paradigm than a workstation with two 30-inch side-by-side 4K monitors.

But Shuttleworth refuses to admit that Unity failed because it's was based on a deeply retarded idea. Instead, he builds a little fantasy world where he's the subject of unreasonable hatred because Ubuntu was so successful.

and yet the web already solved this problem with mobile responsive design.

so what's your point?

>he seems to have never considered the possibility that "convergence" (which if I remember right is the proposition that there should be one UI across desktops, laptops, tablets, and phones) was a shitty idea.

This accounts for 100% of the hatred against Shuttleworth. He revealed himself to be utterly incapable of understanding why convergence is a brain-dead idea.

So he just kept on fighting for convergence. He rammed it down everyone's throat, despite the fact that literally nobody has ever asked for convergence.

And when I say "literally" nobody -- I mean that in the correct sense the word. I challenge you to find even ONE on-line posting on archive.org where somebody had said that they would prefer that their 30-inch workstation desktop should be designed like their smartphone screen, and that it "confuses" them (or whatever) that those two different screens have some differences in their design. **Literally** nobody has ever said that. And yet, that was the whole point of Unity.

canonical isn't part of the community. they're a bunch of retards paid by an idiot

>given that websites can do it, there is virtually no reason why DEs can't.

No. Websites don't do convergence. What websites do is to offer you a completely different design layout depending on whether your browser is on a smartphone or a desktop.

Convergence is the misguided belief that you can somehow have a SINGLE screen design that works well on both a smartphone and on a workstation's 30-inch monitor.

It was okay to ask whether such a single design is possible. But then, when it was investigated, it became immediately clear that the answer was absolutely no -- convergence is not possible, because it either results in a shitty smartphone screen, or else a shitty desktop -- take your pick.

>marks "convergence vision"
>mfw openbsd just works on random devices for the past several decades
openbsd.org/plat.html

Unity worked much better as a desktop DE than gnome 3 ever did.

>and yet the web already solved this problem with mobile responsive design.
>so what's your point?

The point is that Shuttleworth simply doesn't have the competence to operate at the level that he's trying to operate at. Shuttleworth tried to ram Unity down the throats of unwilling users, he refused to listen to the users, and now 6 years later he's forced to pull the plug on the fiasco, and then he reveals the hilarious punchline -- that he thinks people don't like him because he's "too successful". That was a very, very public demonstration of severe incompetence, and of someone who is seriously of touch with reality.

>boo hoo, I tried to force Unity down people's throat and no one like it, FU FU FU
fuck off Mark, your Ubuntu community is the most toxic and egalitarian in the entire Linux community, your failure is your own doing

Also unity was just a technical failure. It was a glorified skin for GNOME.

Running on a snapshot of Debian Testing with a bunch of random patches.

i think he saw himself as a Jobs. he had "a vision" and paid a bunch of people to implement it. people didn't like him because he tried to become a dictator in a finely working decentralized community whose diversity of interests and code are it's greatest strength

>No. Websites don't do convergence. What websites do is to offer you a completely different design layout depending on whether your browser is on a smartphone or a desktop.
That's what old websites used to do. Modern websites don't do that anymore. They use techniques that essentially amount to really sophisticated word wrap and font scaling to give a layout that looks fine no matter how you resize the browser window.

That said, it's still very much a work in progress and there's developments in techniques and ideas on the web design side of things all the time. I don't know if it can translate to Desktop interface design. I also don't know if it's a good idea to implement that sort of design for a desktop.

Personally I use xfce with no desktop icons, a panel (bar) on top, no start button (right click for menu), and mouse wheel scroll on the background to switch workspaces. I can't see myself using the same setup on a tablet but I also wouldn't want to.

1. He is right! There are too many people trolling just to troll.
2. I need a new laptop. It needs to be under $400 can I find a linux laptop. If thats not possible is lenovo ideapad ok or should I get a refurb thinkpad. Hp seems too slow and dell too buggy. I usually buy a floormodel toshiba but they havent had any. Help please.

>When Windows was mainstream
>was
>when Canonical went mainstream
>Canonical went mainstream

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Who the fuck is this freetarded tool?

Mir was hated, but it wasn't irrational hatred. The Linux desktop community had finally mostly come to a consensus in finding an X11 replacement after trying for 30 years and here Canonical comes out of nowhere to fuck it all up with their own completely different solution.

>That's what old websites used to do. Modern websites don't do that anymore.

This is incorrect. Very few modern websites attempt a true convergence of design.

> They use techniques that essentially amount to really sophisticated word wrap and font scaling

But for pretty much everything else, they have to do two completely different designs, depending on whether it's mobile or desktop. The basic layouts of the screens are different -- that is, which elements are included, and what their physical layout is. Their menus are usually designed very differently. The spacial relationships between graphical elements are designed differently.

If you look at the code that goes into the GUI of the web sites, there will be at least a 90% difference in the layout CSS/JavaScript code that's actually active and displayed, when comparing the desktop version to the mobile version. The only thing that's shared is the actual content -- for example, as you mentioned, the content body text is shared, with different font/wrap attributes applied.

Now, of course, a lot of these differences are hidden down in libraries, for the convenience of the site developers. But the fact that the developer is working with an API that attempts to unify the desktop and mobile cases is independent of the fact that actual code that gets executed on the browser is (still to this day) very different between the two platforms.

Is this real?

My first Ubuntu OS was 7.04 Feisty Fawn. I just downloaded it after asking Canonical to ship me a CD for 6.10 but I couldn't wait.

It was great. Vista was a POS at the time. I genuinely thought Linux was going to take over at some point. But you could see the enthusiasm with Ubuntu at that point. They were really trying to make a mainstream distro.

Win 7 killed it, though, and then Android is now killing both it and the desktop altogether.

>i think he saw himself as a Jobs. he had "a vision" and paid a bunch of people to implement it

Agreed. It turned out that he wasn't smart enough to figure out what the FOSS community was really all about, how it operated, and what its culture is. That's the main source of his incompetence.

He really is in entirely over his head. And his ridiculous statements about "they hate me because I'm successful" has demonstrated that he doesn't have the ability to learn -- which is really his most serious intellectual deficiency, by far.

>Fork Debian
>Install all the non-free shit by default
>Mangle gnome into the bastard child of Windows 7 and OSX that only runs on your hack of a distro
>Add in some spyware to rake in some cash while letting Windows users feel at home
>Invest that money into stupid shit like phones and alternate versions of new standards
>"Waah why don't people worship the ground I walk on. Ungrateful fucks."
Ubuntu exists almost purely based on brand recognition, it doesn't do anything unique or have a specific purpose except to run that abortion of a DE. Thank god they're shutting down his faggoty side projects to focus on the actual desktop now.

at the end of the day, it's almost impossible to monetise a desktop OS. windows isn't losing market share or users, but it's stagnant. phoneposters and pajeets using android and iphones are the future. Apple doesn't make money from OSX and Macs, it's all from iphones. Just like Microsoft with win10, he made the mistake of thinking people actually want convergence.

>Agreed. It turned out that he wasn't smart enough to figure out what the FOSS community was really all about, how it operated, and what its culture is. That's the main source of his incompetence.

The FOSS community is about stubbornly sticking to personal ideologies without scientific studies to their effectiveness and keeping control of that project that propagates a culture of infighting and slow dev cycles. It's the other way around. Shuttleworth was actually a competent businessman.

He's not alone with this. The reason Google forked Android was because Lincucks made then run circles with their bs dev. flows.

you're literally arguing semantics at this point.

webkit, blink and gecko are fully functioning toolkits that have all the modern feature for mobile responsive design.

there are plenty of sites which demonstrate this and the differences are minor, at best.

there is literally nothing stopping a toolkit like gtk3+ from being the same other than technical debt or funding.

>I sunk almost half a million dollars into an idea that many professionals thought wouldn't work
>It didn't work
>it's their fault, not mine
okay

/thread

FFS

/thread

desu if he just pushed for shit like electron or some integrated webkit + gjs shit it probably would have been finished by now.

and if it were gjs (or node) + webkit, I would be on that shit right now actually making apps for it because gjs and webkit are a less cancerous GUI toolkit and gtk+ or kde

or the entire nonfree android horseshit.
so "free" that it's impossible to actually build an android app without some nonfree sdk from google.

do you realize how retarded you are?

I'm proud of the community. They've proven that things cannot be taken over by some guy with an ego and lots of money. 1000 year distro

he's made countless infuriating blog posts over the past decade.. it's no surprise really.

maybe he should invest in re casting his personal image like bill gates did

Why do arch users believe they are the only people capable of using the cli?

Don't forget Upstart as well.

So you have Mir, Unity and Upstart - all of which have ultimately been NIH-inspired wastes of money, resources and time.

The "bad guys" in Linux are highly subjective.

For example Arch is generally flamed because it's deliberately inconvenient for the sake of their definition of simplicity, whereas Ubuntu is generally flamed because it's bloated for the sake of their definition of simplicity.

Then keep in mind distros all have different ideas about what software should be installed by default, what licenses are acceptable for software they have in their repos, how they modified software for their repos, and how version handling works. There's plenty of fuel in any distro for an 'elite club' mentality

virtue of necessity

>What websites do is to offer you a completely different design layout depending on whether your browser is on a smartphone or a desktop.
That's what modern convergable OS's like windows or android do as well

EGOTISM

confirmed for retard

kinda like half the FSF projects

>Convergence is the misguided belief that you can somehow have a SINGLE screen design that works well on both a smartphone and on a workstation's 30-inch monitor.

What convergence looks like on Ubuntu.

>autists think convergence is just forcing a mobile UI on desktop
>autists can't be this single minde....oh yeah they can

convergence can also be an adaptive UI, similar to responsive websites that can optimize their content based on the screen size.

Microsoft is working on this with their replacement for Windows Shell.

GNOME has never targeted mobiles. It hasn't even targeted tablets. Why would it?

Sup Forums can't represent anything in free software community aside idiot shills like you

>Who the fuck is this freetarded tool
He was the CEO of Canonical, now he does nothing.

He is just upset his company was called out many times for violating licensing agreements of free software, and for being universally shat on for unity dash.

Maybe lxd support is better with them.