If Wayland is the "Linux desktop" then all the advantages are gone

If Wayland is the "Linux desktop" then all the advantages are gone.
You do know that Wayland's design effectively destroys any choice and customization right? Wayland's protocol is basically an isolation prison that requires "big DE's" and destroys choice. The protocol moves everything into one central place called the "compositor" this machinery must provide:

- the window manager
- the hotkey daemon
-the compositing effects
-the windowing server
-screen reading tools
-screenshots
-screen casting
-magnifying glass tools
-global dictionary tools
-etc etc etc everything.

Wayland's design makes it impossible to write a portable hotkey daemon for instance. Supposedly for "security reasons". Wayland is a GNOME dev's dream, it kills the ability of people to control their own system. If you're actually excited for Wayland you either thoroughly misunderstand what it brings and just like it because it's new or you're a drooling GNOME-lover who hates customization.

Other urls found in this thread:

wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wayland
github.com/MaartenBaert/wayland-keylogger
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

What's to stop someone building a compositor which farms that behavior out to other applications, perhaps through a plugin system?

I agree. Furthermore what even was wrong with x11? I really liked the network transparency for example/.

Nothing in theory, it would work, but Wayland is not even close to there yet we see heavy supporters of it all over this place.

So let me get this straight, your complaint is only an issue because of the immaturity of the Wayland ecosystem that everybody openly acknowledges? Do you also show up to every pre-alpha project on the planet and go "This is shit! Wanna know why? It's not done yet!"? Fuck off.

Wayland started in 2011 buddy.

Its still lacking tons of basic shit despite being in development for years now

I like what wayland is trying to do but the project moves like molasses

wayland is just a protocol
is it really impossible to make a modular wayland compositor?

>muh customization
How do lintards hold this contradiction in the heads: they want normies to use linux but they don't want it to be an OS for normies.
Pick one.

moving away from X isn't an easy thing to do

wayland tiling window managers already exist

They have GNOMEs help which is literally funded by redhat + help from freedesktop folk and it's been in development for 6 years

it was slow and Intel wanted to use wayland for Tizen

most stuff already works natively on wayland, except for firefox and chromium

>I really liked the network transparency for example/.
the way X is used these days isn't network transparent

x11 could take hours to compile depending on how old your computer is.

...

OP dont talk about stuff you arent aware of

>Wayland's protocol is basically an isolation prison
thats the whole idea
Xorg is literally a network layer where the auth is sockets
everying using xorg can see your keyboard and screen and clipboard
wayland is designed up to be secure from that aspect

>requires big des
citation needed
what is sway
what is maynard
>destroys choice
GNOME
sway
Enlightenmen
KDE Plasma
Orbment Tiling
loliwm
Velox
Orbital
Liri Shell compositor for Wayland.
Maynard a project by Tiago Vignatti.
Motorcar
way-cooler
Maze Compositor
Grefsen

nice job being a idiot though

>the devs want to prevent customization
ROFL wayland is a API
window manager teams build the compositor that wayland devs have no nothing involvement in

also the wayland devs are the original xorg team (well the team that worked on it for the last decade since XORG is ancient and the original devs are senile now)

stop being ignorant and actually do research op

We dont want normies using linux the only people who want a "year of the linux desktop" are wintards who want to use linux but are lacking in the wetware to do so.

>i liked network transparency

i bet you liked xorg applications stealing your screen and keystroke data too huh?

t. guy who never tried wayland

ive been using it for atleast 2 years now

they have had a working model for years now

also the majority of devs working on wayland are former xorg devs

is wayland much faster?
I know what i am running.

>the only way to provide something someone wants is to force them to conform to your view.

Ubuntu is the normie distro. It's set up and ready-to-go out of the box and yet you can still customize it when you feel like it. You're fucking retarded.

I haven't tried compiling wayland so I can't answer that.

>is wayland much faster?
wayland is a protocol, not a piece of software

(((Wayland)))

Yeah, the proper way to use wayland is with the compositor weston.

yes it is

it fixes the screen tearing issue of xorg with compositors and by default supports 8+ monitors simultan

the whole protocol is streamlined compared to XORG

its designed for high I/O graphical input and google has been using it inside their google cars to process all of those HD high speed cameras all over the vehicle

weston is actually a example implementation of the protocol for WM/DE teams to use as a example

wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Wayland

Sway (i3 clone) is already doing that.

how does wayland limit customization??

even the I3 team is working on compatibility and KDE and gnome already are working?

It doesn't. This is just a replay of I DON'T LIKE THING we saw from GNOME 3, KDE 4, PulseAudio, and systemd.

X_X

ssh -X still works for everything I tried

xwayland will always be avail for legacy applications

former xorg devs are making sure of that for compatibility and all of them believe wayland is evolutionary the next step for xorg

so there is really no downsides.
Xwayland personally gives me more performance than native Xorg

bloat. for me X works fine!

>everying using xorg can see your keyboard and screen and clipboard
This is true, which is why we have things like firejail x11 sandboxing or the X11 SECURITY extension.

>wayland is designed up to be secure from that aspect
Except when they use add LD_PRELOAD or modify .profile to load a keylogging compositor but then that "doesn't count", r-right guys?

>what is sway
20k loc software that doesnt even replicate all of i3wm
Same for that other literally who software


>destroys choice
I don't mean that kind of choice yoiu retard. Did you even read the post? There is no more picking your hotkey, notification, window effects, screen recording tool or anything anymore.

>nice job being a idiot though
nice argument

>ROFL wayland is a API
yeah for building compositors that then have to individually implement shit like hotkeys, window effects like animations, screen recording, screenshots, etc. as opposed to xorg where they can just develop a wm and not have to write their own fucking screenshot tool cause of retarded design

>stop being ignorant and actually do research
you first

Wayland doesn't solve this. there is wayland keyloggers too

sure

so you are literally just complaining about the time it takes to develop.
great post user, looking forward to more

>first 2 seconds in screen tearing right before terminal pops up

wayland has fixed this issue and xwayland with a minimal compositor is generally slimmer

xorg in comparison is bloat if you count packages and size

1. i dont even notice it...
2. so how could i use my wayland applications over the network? assuming x applications dont exist anymore.
3. non-linux support?
4. compositors are bloat

not an argument
but i am also complaining about horrible design

Yes it does, applications can no longer do what they want.

>2. so how could i use my wayland applications over the network? assuming x applications dont exist anymore.
VNC?

Also as long as toolkits continue to work with X11, you can use ssh -X even if you use Wayland locally. On a related note, x2go-server is in Debian-main now in experimental, which bodes well for its longevity.

if you are the OP and are posting a libertarian meme then you need to be less concerned about wayland and start being more concerned about the damn commies everywhere (mozilla, gnu, etc)

>which is why we have
these are just bandaids over a bigger problem

the xorg artitecture is flawed in its design because it was originally designed at a time when only universities and workplaces had computers

xorg allowed multiple users to share one computer and have multiple desktops

over the years we turned it into a single users desktop but we never closed off any of the networking capabilities

they didnt have worries about security back then and firejails ect arent possible for every kind of application

they are also impossible to implement automatically and you suggesting average users will waste their time is a sheer lie


Except when they use add LD_PRELOAD or modify .profile to load a keylogging compositor but then that "doesn't count", r-right guys?

>they
who is they?
wayland devs have no control over the compositor teams


>I don't mean that kind of choice yoiu retard. Did you even read the post? There is no more picking your hotkey, notification, window effects, screen recording tool or anything anymore.

none of these are waylands issues these are the compositor teams jobs to implement


>then have to individually implement shit like hotkeys, ect

>wayland has total control and they prevent customization
>the compositors have to do everything and wayland team does nothing

pick a narrative before you shill what you dont know

>wayland keyloggers
care to share??
sounds like total bullshit

and btw youd have to download a keylogger where XORG allows any app using xorg sockets to share processes

you can use xwayland till the devs of your packages make a wayland compatible program

>they cant do what they want waaah

>omg wayland is makin the compositors implement hotkeys and screenshots ect thats too much freedom!!!

do you even listen to yourself??

they are giving desktop teams way more freedom than xorg ever did

You know, firefox works so far so good in wayland. A weird issue with the URL bar, but it's the only complaint I have.

send in a bug report!
they are pretty responsive.

What compositor? I'm trying it under Sway and it's an utter clusterfuck.

I'm using sway too and the compositor I installed was weston.

>and btw youd have to download a keylogger where XORG allows any app using xorg sockets to share processes

ever hear of code execution exploits? Wayland makes keylogging just slightly more difficult

>pick a narrative before you shill what you dont know
I already have, the idea is that software devs can no longer write things like xbindkeys, the compositor devs have to which is the exact opposite of the Unix philosophy which is so often preached here.


>who is they?
potential malware authors? are you dumb or something?

>none of these are waylands issues these are the compositor teams jobs to implement
Yet they do it and are doing it.

>wayland keyloggers
github.com/MaartenBaert/wayland-keylogger

Wat. Weston and Sway are separate things.

already been patched and it still doesnt change the fact that xorg is swiss cheese compared to wayland

>they are giving desktop teams way more freedom than xorg ever did

Are you seriously this retarded? In the current Wayland ecosystem, there is no individual software like Xbindkeys, or OBS, etc. Compositors HAVE to implement their own stuff or else they don't have the feature. Whereas with X.org we can have minimal wms like 2bwm that implement the bare minimal then have smaller other software to make up for it.

>already been patched
Proof? And no, you can't patch to prevent someone from using LD_PRELOAD you retarded monkey.

xorg doesnt require xorg execution exploits because all traffic is already open so you better hope that your browser is secure

stop using root for daemons

>xorg-server-wayland
SO YOU STOPPED USING XORG SO YOU COULD USE WAYLAND ONLY,BUT THEN NONE OF YOUR PROGRAMS WORK ON WAYLAND SO YOU USE XORG-SERVER-WAYLAND

BAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
Hypocrite

This is unrelated.

>xorg doesnt require xorg execution exploits because all traffic is already open so you better hope that your browser is secure
>because all traffic is already open
You mean like key events and stuff? Yeah by default if you don't take any measures to secure it. See: x11 firejail sandboxing with xpra/xephyr or x11 security extension

sorry i didn't click reply to u, see:

Different user, but what do you mean? I see wayland referred to as an API and compositor called wayland. How is that different from sway?

*compositor called weston

>i bet you liked xorg applications stealing your screen and keystroke data too huh?

Which is a neat theoretical vulnerability, but not one that is really a problem in real life.

Xorg is going to drop support one of these days and there is nothing you can do about it.

this desu, there's been so much improvement in citrix/spice/nx there's no reason to use slow shitty half-broken X networking, get that shit out of the window system

Not for atleast a minimum of 100 years
Maybe then wayland will have basic functionality for all programs

Gtk

protip: if malware can connect to X it already has access to your entire home directory

Next ubuntu release is going to support wayland by default and then xorg is history.

Sway is a compositor. It's like Weston or kwin or mutter. You use at most one compositor at once. Wayland is the protocol that the compositors implement.

So weston is completely optional?

Weston is just the reference compositor. It's not required at all.

> is going to support wayland by default
I'm pretty sure Fedora has had this for like a year. Going to support doesn't equal default.

> and then xorg is history.
Yeah, no. Most things still require xwayland because who would've guessed that devs don't want to have to rewrite all their applications.

No, it's not. There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about Wayland, like a lot of the shit In OP. The dude who is deving the one tiling wm for it posted a pretty on the nose wall of text over on leddit about how almost all of these "issues" are easily fixed, and thus not issues

Okay, I see, weston is just an example compositor for anyone who wants to make their own. Also, why aren't they being called window managers anymore?

They do more than just manage windows. GPU compositing, screenshots, hotkeys, keybinds, etc. They're much closer to full DEs which is why there aren't already dozens of them.

So super minimalist compositors won't be possible with wayland?

Pretty much. The tradeoff is it's harder for malware to mess with the desktop as long as the compositor itself is safe. I predict we'll see some made in Rust or Go for the security minded.

Post link

>ubuntu is for normies
you have no idea what a normie is

yes
they won't be as 'minimal' as an Xorg compositor, but only because they're very different things
if you already use things for a display server, screenshooting, hotkey handling, and so on, then a wayland compositor won't be any heavier
it's just that you're trading several things for one bigger thing
and Xorg is one big, ugly thing. it's an easy trade to get rid of that

>easy trade to get rid of that
Sept not all programs run in wayland,and developers re NEVER going to do a rewrite for some meme new software

-- oh, incase it isn't clear,
an xorg compositor is added on to xorg, that is, you have xorg, and a compositor which works with xorg
with wayland, the display server (what xorg did) IS the compositor, so you're *only* running the compositor, it's not "and wayland", wayland is just the protocol the compositor speaks

the widget toolkits have to be ported but most other things should work with minimal changes

>Sept not all programs run in wayland
not yet
>developers re NEVER going to do a rewrite
except they have, keep in mind only the parts that talk to the display server needs updating, namely toolkits, and the major current toolkits already have wayland support, meaning any software using those toolkits will also work in wayland
it's only a matter of time

>I know what i am running
Security through omniscience.
>keylogging doesn't happen in real life

Its been 5 YEARS,and there is very little support.

No one is going to change there backbone for some meme software that serves no real purpose

>meme software
fuck off, reddit

>people want to make Linux better
>autists on Sup Forums throw a shitfit because baby duck syndrome

l m a o

>No one is going to change there backbone for some meme software that serves no real purpose

Kind of like nobody is going to switch from Windows to meme software that serves no real purpose. Well, a few autists might.

X11 shills are out in full force

People use Wayland?

Please post the link to what you're talking about?

and not only ubuntu.
Kde Neon has gone wayland by default.
Fedora as well.
Even meme stuff like unity 8 is going wayland.

it's not new and sexy tech but will slowly push out X assuming there's tangible benefits

Nice argument

>wayland is designed up to be secure from that aspect
And it goes out the window when someone else is responsible for implementing the features that it drops.

Hey shit for brains, I think that you're missing the point. X11 should never work out the box for anyone. It is meant to be a barrier to entry that keeps the undesirables out. The fact that Debian GNU/Linux, Fedora, and Ubuntu have working X11 packages is a problem. It allows people to get away with not understanding how X11 works. Any real GNU/Linux user worth his salt has configured a tiling X11 setup where each X11 instance is mapped on the framebuffer. But alas, these days, even Gentoo and FreeBSD have X11 working out of the box. It saddens me that you children growing up with these fancy bloated desktop environments, that magically work with your X11 installations, will never have to dig down deep into X11 and, by sheer force of will combined with precision typing, make it work. But fortunately, at least one Linux is out there keeping the dream alive. Arch hearkens back to a simpler time, when men wrestled bears named X11 and ALSA. We didn't do it for fun, we did it to survive and grow; and grow we did. You children can go right on with your prepacked X11 solutions, but I'll be right here whittling away at X11; and in the end, I'll know more about GNU/Linux than you ever will.

i still have nightmares about XFree86 Modelines