Why do developers hate project managers?
Is it just because we make more money than you do?
My job is to make your lives EASIER by taking care of all the administrative bullshit so you can focus all your efforts and creativity on your project.
By butting heads with me you only make shit HARDER.
I'm not the enemy, I'm your ally.
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Talk to them about it, not an anonymous community.
fucking idiots on this board, man.
This is a message to the entire software development community.
It's not a localized problem.
Why the fuck do you space your posts like that? Are you completely incapable of forming a complete though and formatting your text properly?
Also, I have no issues with my project manager.
I pretend I'm talking and I press enter twice when I stop to breathe.
>doesn't know the "redditposting" forced mey mey
>I'm not the enemy, I'm your ally.
Only if you're a man. Women tend to be in charge in corporate settings, and they are the enemy.
>I press enter twice when I stop to breathe.
What the fuck user.
Humanity is the enemy. It must be crushed.
Actually no, the universe itself is the enemy so we must survive long enough to destroy the universe.
Yes, I know about reddit spacing. I'm trying to get him to justify that retardation.
I just realise I made a typo:
>though
thought
>caring about typos on Sup Forums
Not this is retardation.
but my project manager is a cool guy who gives helpful tips and deals with most of the customer's bullshit for us, why would I hate him?
>My job is to make your lives EASIER by taking care of all the administrative bullshit so you can focus all your efforts and creativity on your project.
Exactly. It would be nice if you actually started doing your job instead of just fucking around and making everything worse when you do decide to do something. That's why we hate you.
Too many shitty overpaid middle management business student/MBA types who end up in project management roles because the company thinks that they can save a few bucks by hiring an idiot to fill the position instead of somebody who knows what they're doing.
see
You don't provide any real value while we do the real work and then you take the credit for it.
We would be so much better off without the "administrative bullshit" that is designed to keep your useless ass employed.
You are doing women`s work.
Maybe you're not like the ones that I worked with but they never did their job right.
Kept calling me out of nowhere and asking if they could add some extra bullshit in the project when in the same morning he said we were behind schedule and what was discussed in the meeting had to be done without any changes.
The list goes on. I only had bad luck with project managers.
Also one of them had a coke problem and unironically once was high at work but lost his job thank god.
But seriously don't change specifications out of the blue when you're the one who set the specs to begin with.
>Yes, I know about reddit spacing.
Good, then you know it's also a stupid forced meme then.
Administration of people is harder than you think.
We aren't robots... yet.
if he was on coke at work he probably got 10x his normal amount of stuff done
And ants insist they don't post on Sup Forums, vile lies.
>if he was on coke at work
I had a boss on coke and he drove the business bankrupt.
Don't do coke.
Project managers begins cancer on software developers and things like scrum, mananger comes from idea control cheap and replaceable labour, idea contract a lot code monkeys plus some magical project manager end up just project mananger shit on code monkeys everything and people just run to take courses scrum to believe their are smart and mananger type persons.
Better for me because I charge as consultor because code monkey never finish projects and internal or external teams just charge more money to build shit.
kek they're not balancing sleep and coke properly. i cant do drugs anymore anyways
>hey we need that machine up and running tomorrow at 6
>>it doesn't even have air or power run to it
>well it needs to run at 6
They should probably just kill themselves senpai.
Also prescription meds.
They ruin your sleep too.
Because you are the reason projects get fucked up.
PAJEET DETECTED
>Why do developers hate project managers?
because you make me spend 4 hours a day in pointless meetings that i don't need to be at but "it would be nice if i was there just in case" when you know that i am overbudgeted anyway and can't spare any dev time
because you make me do your work for you by having me mess with tickets in the issue tracker, when what should actually happen is that you should learn git and just look at my commits because 99% of the time i just copy paste from there anyway
because you preach "agile" and "scrum" and "sprints" and all this stupid shit that the customer never asked for and doesn't care about, they just want software that works
>Is it just because we make more money than you do?
you don't though, most tech companies have figured out these days that paying PMs more just for being PMs is nonsense, the only concrete thing that gets people paid more is seniority
>project managers
Those still exist?....WHY??
Just scrum.
I sincerely appreciate my project manager insulating me from most of the corporate dilbert bullshit.
Sometimes we come into conflict because the project manager is the avatar of the real-world constraints of time and money that prevent me from making software as good as it could be.
Project managers also struggle to understand that programming is not a manufacturing process that can extrude software of consistent quality at a predictable rate.
Scrum was invented by developers to get rid of project managers.
Scrum takes ideas kaban Japanese, but kaban works because real bussiness administrator protect whole production part.
On scrum end up tried begin cost mananger,market analisys,service customer,quality control, just each time sometime goes to shit just say make another spring or just you don't know scrum please buy another course.
literal wut?
Don't use Google translate to post from Japanese.
project manager masterrace here. i love my job but its shitty to push the team to something they cant do in time cuz it makes us look bad too.
I could do your job. You couldn't do mine.
Project managers dictate what you should spend your time on. Feel like refactoring your code to make it more concise or something? Bad luck - doesn't create value for the company. Do X instead.
Scrum and Agile have been reworked into complete cancer by management consultants. They make the problem worse.
>tfw u hate someone at work so much you create software to get rid of them
I never understood this. You don't have the social skills to be a manager of any sort which is why you're not doing the job. On top of that internally hired PMs are actually usually the one person who did have those skills so it doesn't work in that case either.
>scrum is software
And you wonder why Sup Forums can't find a job.
The problem is when you don't know what the fuck you're doing, which is sadly the case in many cases.
It doesn't matter. We still get the job done through social engineering and trying to fix issues.
You guys seem to react this way. It's based on the fact that to learn your skills you needed to be a social recluse in a dimly lit basement laughing at forum memes before they were memes. It's cool we understand. It's okay you're a weirdo.
The virgin code monkey vs the Chad project manager.
Someone make it.
To recap:
>muh social skills, chem em bitches!
>.....
>booohooohoo why nobody likes me whaaa!!
If you managed it well enough, there wouldn't be issues in first place.
If the structure is not good, not amount of shit glued to it will fix it.
Wait so you basically said you're incompetent but everything turned out well because the people who work under you can do their job unlike you?
Noice.
Project managers are anything but incompetent. A good project manager has to work under several layers of technical and business abstraction to gap the bridge between business and IT. Developer do NOT make good project managers, they lack the business perspective, only thinking about the technical aspects of the product, that's why all 100% technical focused products are mostly shit and never get widespread use and they come out over budget, schedule and with feature creep.
>"We can do your job, you can't do ours"
What did developers mean by this?
Sure your little shitty GitHub college project may not need project management but if you want to actually make MONEY with your software you definitely need a good project manager.
Developers alone couldn't hope to stay on schedule and achieve a good ROI even if their lives depended on it.
>B-B-B-B-BUT MUH SCRUM, MUH AGILE, I'M A BASAMENT NECKBEARD THAT KNOWS 42394589304 PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES, I CAN DO EVERYTHING ALONE
Good luck making money with your literal garbage buggy ridden FOSS. Maybe if you're very very lucky Mr. Goldenberg will feel pity on you and sponsor your project for a few millions, except you will have to work under a project manager then.
But a retarded "social butterfly" that have no clue how the technical side work is also quite bad at it, as well, it don't know what the fuck he's doing.
Need a man that can do both well.
You could, but it would still take some training, because its a weird non job.
Instead of a work job, its a job where you try to not micromange a team into doing what somebody else wants them to do.
And then its bad, because managment have degrees to communicate, but not degrees for effective communication.
Then again, most managers are awful at communication. They basically need a peer who have had some training, to even attempt it.
>"social butterfly" project managers
This must be a thing with American companies. Pic related is what a project manager looks like.
He's not your friend, he's not your dad, he's not your buddy, he's not your lad.
He exists only to make sure the project comes out on schedule, on budget, with the features promised and that the project is a success.
Sure he's not be a developer, but he probably has over 15+ years experience on the field and he has seen everything, he has done everything, he probably doesn't know how to code himself and use the latest hip Reddit programming language kids are using to make their flashy new apps but he understands Software Engineering, he understands problem solving and Systems analysis.
He's the one sitting at the helm discussing features with the customer, not a senior developer, a senior developer doesn't know how to negotiate, a senior developer may know more accurately what is achievable through programming but he doesn't understand the business implications of his actions, a project manager does.
You're a child if you still have this "OMG I HATE MY BOSS" mentality.
Project management has proven to be a crucial element of a company’s efficiency and its eventual success. In fact, projects are usually 2.5 times more successful when proven project management practices in place. Development is merely 1 out of several steps necessary to finish a successful project:
I imagine that people that hate this kind of project manager are mostly lazy.
Your project manager is bad, he fails at the most basic concept of scheduling.
No you couldn't do my job, but that's not the point.
The point is you're not being paid to do to my job or to deal with "administrative bullshit". You're paid to fucking code, you fucking Pajeet-nigger-code-monkey.
You were hired to do that, code.
>refactoring your code
Why would you work on a finished product after it's finished if you're not being paid to do so? That kind of behavior doesn't cut in the business world.
A finished software is not yours, it belongs to the customer, if the customer has not asked you to touch it then you don't.
I will literally go out of my way to stop a developer from touching a finished product that a customer has already accepted just because he wants to "retouch the code".
The product is finished, it's done, Jamal. Unless it was in the contract that we have to keep a developer improving it then it's over, proceed to the next project.
Not software related but
>We need you in there tomorrow to do the prewire
>Uh we got a schedule from the builder and we aren't supposed to be there until next week since other trades are there
>No you have to be there tomorrow
>Show up next day
>Sure enough a bunch of cunts are there grinding the floor so we can't do our prewire
>Oh well charge the cunts for travel time
Another classic example
>Place to put sensor has a high cabinet marked on plans
>Check with project manager
>He says not to worry about it, they probably won't end up putting it there
>Prewire it there
>Come for fitoff and sure enough there is a fucking cabinet covering up our cable
>Why did you guys put your cable there?!!?
Every god damn job there is a project manager who does fuck all other than absolutely fail to manage the project. I just don't talk to them anymore and manage myself.
>asks you to work out of schedule
>loses money
>doesn't properly communicate with the customer
>makes the customer angry
That's not a project manager.
That's just your manager being an absolute dunce.
That's never my manager man, it's always some overpaid dickhead that the customer brings in to 'manage' his projects.
That's even worse, he's your customer's "project manager". A project manager should come from your company not theirs. How do they expect to manage a "resource" they've never worked with before? That dickhead probably only wants to see shit get done, he doesn't care about your well being or anything.
He may call himself a project manager but he sure isn't one.
Actually they have BAs like me do the majority of this. Except for the schedule and budget parts. And even then I still have to dragged in to the meetings we're supposed to be protected from to help justify the stuff they put in the budget/schedule. Hell, I've had to fill out requisition forms to bring in contractors because the PM was too dense to put together a solid justification. The only people I hate dealing with more than the PMO is QA
>they have BAs like me do the majority of this
That's unusual. What industry do you work for?
Fintech. My job is sits in the Bermuda triangle of the PMO, dev, and QA. Normally when something "isn't someone's job" it falls on us. But in the financial world the infrastructure and codebase is so old and complicated once they have someone that has it kinda figured out and can communicate across the organization its almost to be expected I guess
The local managers are to monitor employees who finish their work in general in factories or super markets.
In professions the most similar to a project manager, they are experts with years of experience who have the maturity to say what to do, another type only passes general checks on the work done has lower rank that the workers do not have decision power could be a Secretary.
In the case of programmers, there is usually no specification for the whole project from libraries, language, architecture, class design and all the logic of the specified business, so putting programmers as an assembly line does not work, if The project manager has no programming experience or dedicates to writing the specifications, so he is just a scapegoat for the bad business plans or market analysis that because he is in top position used to scapegoating programmers.
Project managers are a cancer in the software industry selling a false solution to prevent the software from taking industrial or engineering practices, software gurus with scrum, TDD, XP or others are the ones that sell that programming is something mystical and little known that they dominate that only a couple of young programmers with a good project manager can do anything.
Its because most project managers have no understanding of the work they hand-wavingly assign to the people they manage, and so they always promise unreasonable things to their superiors and dump the results on the peons.
There are good project managers but most of them are just useless and annoying.
people treat (You) like that because you're a retard who thinks an anonymous image board is your personal blog
well put
google "bikeshedding"
>Is it just because we make more money than you do?
In what world is this true? The PM at my previous job made less than half of what I did.
Do you know how to speak English?
Because that was horrible English.
Because you work at a shithole startup?
Any real company will pay more to the PM than to the developer.
but... but you spaced your post out the exact same way
You wrote quite a lot for somebody that didn't say much other than
>bawww project managers shouldn't exist in IT, they should be factory supervisors
>Project managers are a cancer in the software industry
Enlighten me; oh divine programmer; how you expect to actually deliver a successful project without putting in practice management practices.
Have you actually delivered a successful product in your life or you're just a code monkey following orders?
>durrr I will just do the management myself
If you reply with that, you're retarded. You're a developer, you're paid to develop, any second you're not programming the company is losing money.
>Implying devs couldn't learn marketing for 3 hours and outsmart you completly.
Sorry retarded butterfly, you could shove your buzzwords in your ass
It's not that I dislike all project managers, it's that project management is a very difficult job and as such, most project managers are terrible at it.
At work I know 2 PMs that talk to clients and figure out what's going on.
1 is a really nice lady who doesn't know a lick of programming, but she communicates during stand-ups and gets just what she needs to know and pain points and stuff that annoys us devs, then tries to work with the client to come to an amicable solution
2 grinds my gears. She was a developer but moved out because my company doesn't fucking know what they're doing, and her day consists of her attending stand ups, then walking around the office and asking what her team's people are doing, not bothering at all to hear any issues they might be having. It pisses me off so much, because ALL of the info she wants to get she could get by either making sure stand ups run right and get meaningful info. Instead she wastes everyone's time and then spends like an hour every day hounding the QA guys about what they're doing and what they should be doing. These guys know what's happening or should through the stand ups, but she feels the need to be big brother. And every time they talk to her about stuff, it feels like she's the client and she'll just be difficult about stuff.
Maybe you're just being a stupid cunt who is listening too much to clients and not to your engineers. They know the product and what will make it better, figure out a way to let them do the work that will make shit better and reign in your dumbfuck clients. You probably don't deserve to be making more money since a trained monkey could do your job.
Pretty much this.
We have bad project managers which seems to be about 80% of them. We could easily do their job (and a lot of people probably have had to) yet they cant do ours.
A good PM on the other hand though...
*hate bad project managers
have to sit in a meeting with 4 of you and dictate what you will communicate. shame. 4 of you can be replaced by one secretary
Lots of management types who have no business in software or have clients that want to be hands-on but have no idea what the fuck they're doing and just spend their days requesting useless "features" that chew up more dev time that pushes back releases.
The idea is that the project manager takes care of the corporate bullshit from the companies, but it's rare that you get a project manager that doesn't immediately drop to his/her knees and start sucking the client's dick and swallowing when told to, then telling the developers what the client wants and not taking no for an answer.
Your job is supposed to be to take no for an answer and go and convince the client that they're retarded. Or just keep the client in meetings discussing useless features while the devs manage to work on the necessary features in order to deliver a project that isn't built on a wing and a prayer with bells and whistles tacked on shittily to the side that takes hours to load the homepage.
Your job is to try and prevent meme features from making it from the mouthbreather client's brain, to the developer's backlog. Your job isn't to hound the developer on behalf of the client to get more shit tacked onto the product.
Your job is to allow the developer to be left alone long enough to complete features. Your job is not to spend all day sending meeting requests to devs and requesting nice-to-have garbage that will never be used by anyone.
Don't think that project management is a difficult job. Getting somebody who's good at it is very rare, yes, but talking to clients and persuading them your way of thinking is not difficult if you're not an autist.
You couldn't do our jobs. There's a good chance we could do your jobs.
This guy is right on the money. Lots of programmers are insensitive and unable to communicate with clients properly where they'll just piss the clients off more and more whereas you need to be able to approach client matters more sensitively so that the client feels like they're heard and the project is making steps to what they want it to be, but really the pm needs to steer the project in the right direction by subtly or not-so-subtly getting the client to understand why things are being done.
>The only people I hate dealing with more than the PMO is QA
HERESY, you shall comply with the 12 commandments of holy ISO9001 bible. Though shall repent with corrective action lest yee receiveth major non conformance.
The lord watches from above with his army of auditors, quality is love...quality is life.
/thread
Competent project managers are a good thing, but there are too many condescending pricks who make vague and unrealistic requirements, and when asked to allocate time for debugging, testing or refactoring they tell you to "get it right in the first place".
>kaban
It's kanban you faggot.
You can't hate your boss.
You can admit that parts of the process is flawed, and that a lot of the joints is not in good shape.
The idea is sound; A multi skill person is used to replace several specialists, while using the companies extra resource to cover over the fact one person can't replace several.
So a manager is suppose to replace a HR person, a accountant, some field guy, and at the least one office drone. So at the least 4 people, with the additional benefit of offloading things like finance paperwork to the company.
And because its prioritized to make sure this is a people person, who can communicate, the manager can be used for all kinds of communication things, such as selling labor/services to a external party.
That said, the manager do not have to have enough experience to get the position, leading to mild horrors.
Common errors include being bad at negotiating with customers, leading to incomplete spec, or having no perspective on the teams skills or size.
so tl:dr
>Person is used to replace at the least 4+ people
>It makes a lot of sense to do this
Also this.
He also needs to know how to call out the customer on their bullshit, and when to ask senior programmer about more information.
Pretty sure I make more than my pm.
Most of the most successful software ever written was written without a project manager or any kind of management involved. Most of the greatest protocols and standards in software were made by small core teams of experts with little or no management overhead. See: GNU/Linux, 90% of GitHub. These projects were so cost effective that the developers were able to spin them together literally in their spare time.
Software project management subscribes to the fantasy that you can rigorously manage the creative engineering process. You can manage the non-creative parts, but good developers already do that for themselves. The problem is, unless you're making something trivial or doing something already done a million times (in which case stop writing code and use cots) you cannot effectively time block the creative development process, and you cannot plan for the inevitable problems you don't know about yet. The best you can do is eyeball it, double your estimation, then live with the fact that you might be 100% off still.
But that's no what PMs do. They typically eyeball it, tell themselves it could probably be done in half the time jf they really crack the whip and stop all the "refactoring" and "unit testing" crap the developers are always wasting time with, then they promise this absurd time table to those above them. When it turns out the project is failing, they run around demanding more cut corners and 90 hour weeks. Finally, the project is delivered "only two weeks late" with 2/3rds the functioning features, poor performance, and security flaws up the wazoo. The project is seen as a huge success because the PM says it was, and only two weeks late is a miracle in the world of promising way more than you can deliver.
The above describes MOST project managers. If you don't match the description, good for you. You probably do, but whatever. Believe what you want to. PMs are really good at that.
You are correct, but people who press enter three times in a row on Sup Forums are retarded.
Because you're not a manager, you're an assistant at best. You take care of the busywork, but you faggots can't even do that properly because you lack the technical knowledge to properly communicate with your own team and your client. You're just in the way and we'd be infinitely more efficient if we could directly communicate with relevant parties without having a proxy that changes the message content
Decent software engineers are perfectly fine in self-organized teams
Because you work at a small/medium sized company.
No fucking way you earn more than a PM leading a $10M project.
>Most of the most successful software ever written was written without a project manager or any kind of management involved
Bullshit.
Post source.
>Most of the greatest protocols and standards in software were made by small core teams of experts with little or no management overhead. See: GNU/Linux, 90% of GitHub
Oh, you're one of those. Never mind then, carry on with your shitposting.
>the social skills to be a manager of any sort
Nice meme.
>You're just in the way and we'd be infinitely more efficient if we could directly communicate with relevant parties without having a proxy that changes the message content
I would NEVER let a developer negotiate directly with a costumer.
Developers are terrible negotiators.
It's not in your blood.
>can't even say "Good morning" to the
You can barely say good morning to your coworkers and you think you would make a good manager?
Don't kid yourself.
You're trying so hard to convince yourself that every single developer on this planet is bad at communication because you're fully aware that your job would immediately be absolutely meaningless if even just 1 (one) developer in your dev team has decent people skills (which is true for most mid+ sized teams)
I worked in metalworking and throughout the two years I've been there company hasn't been fucked once by the actual metalworkers working "in the field".
The only times we ended up in big fucking pile of shit was because of "project managers" being lazy piece of shit.
I'm fairly sure the project managers are the problem, not the people actually doing their job.
I can only imagine how shitty project managers of IT companies must be. I have a hard time imagining "programming" as an exciting job to do outside of maybe freelance work. Putting it in a corporate setting must take it to another level of horrible
Are you projecting now, user-kun? Managers in relevant companies are developers that were promoted because they had enough projects under their belt to know what works and what doesn't. Someone who focused on "management" from the start will never amount to anything.
Communication is not even the point, you can be a social butterfly millennial developer all you want You do not have negotiation skills, you do not know how to say "No" to a customer or how to explore possible ways of making more money.
I'm saying this not as a PM, I'm saying this as a developer.
You're going to become the customer's puppet if you try to negotiate directly with him.
There needs to be a barrier between customer and production.
What a drama queen.
You hate project managers and programming because you've only seen the worst.
Do you think ANYONE in this thread actually works at a good company? Most of Sup Forums is working soulless programming jobs at shitty companies in hope one day they'll be hired at a good one.
>Yes, I know about reddit spacing. I'm trying to get him to justify that retardation.
It's called paragraphs and have been use in English printed language since 200 years.