Why haven't IT professionals unionised? Is it because in our industry the prevalent personality types are submissive, timid and antisocial? If you think about how IT-related professions have been fucked over the last decade you will see no other career would ever allow this shit to happen.
Imagine if the government created a visa category that was almost exclusively aimed at importing hundreds of thousands of pajeets with no background checks to work as airline pilots for a fraction of the pay. Imagine contractors were imposing unrealistic deadlines and work schedules on construction workers and engineers and telling them to cut corners when building a structure. Imagine if there were websites dedicated to finding freelance lawyers who could be hired to work on US cases without living here or having ever set foot here. Imagine if hospitals could hire people who didn't go to med school as shift managers.
Gentlemen, we need to put our differences aside. Remember in 2007 how Hollywood was brought to their knees by striking scriptwriters? Fucking scriptwriters! Think about what we could achieve by unionising our profession. The country would LITERALLY stop if we crossed our arms for a week demanding more privileges.
because i know i'm better than at least 75% of the devs out there, and as such can negotiate to get a respectable salary. also i plan to move into management at some point so i dont give a fuck about the long term health of the profession.
Jace Roberts
>Why haven't IT professionals unionised? Because unions are for commies. And smart people do not need unions to think for them.
Robert Harris
>i plan to move into management at some point Isn't this precisely because the profession has been getting the short end of the stick lately? Very few doctors or lawyers would say "I want to move into management". Many practice their profession well beyond retirement age even because pay and conditions are good and their work is well regulated to prevent undercutting.
Landon Young
people who are actually worth something don't need unions. If their employer mistreats them, there'll be plenty of other employers happy to hire them. There's a reason why the sector with the highest unionization rate - government employees - is also filled with the most useless wastes of oxygen you ever saw.
Christopher Lee
>Wanting to be treated more humanely is communist Fuck off ancap, you can't and won't be legally allowed to force someone to work long hours at little pay in dangerous conditions
Christian Hall
everyone that's not self-employed has been getting the short end of the stick for decades. wages have more or less been the same since the early 80s. it sucks but it is what it is. i dont want to reach the rather low salary ceiling for a dev and stay there for another 3 decades until i retire.
Oliver Cooper
No employer can force you to do anything. All you have to do is say "I quit!" and walk out the door.
Christian Williams
Maybe union was a poor choice of words in the traditional sense. Guilds, lobbying, advocacy groups etc are all things the IT profession lacks. And though it is true that unionised government positions are shit, jobs that are unionised/protected/regulated but operate within the private sector have some of the highest paid workers.
Leo Cox
Not everyone is in a position where they can just drop everything and walk away
Elijah Diaz
Because I'm not a FUCKING low class worker. Go back.
Jose Ortiz
That's their problem. Not the employer's, and not society's.
Luis Phillips
It's better to just move around every few years and get bigger bux than bother renegotiating and/or waiting for promotions. Loyalty doesn't pay.
Evan Russell
Because comfortable, sedentary white collar desk jobs are incompatible with Marxist rhetoric.
Matthew Kelly
Fuck off ya socialist.
Caleb Adams
keep up the good work boys, you're getting a bonus this hanukkah
Jace Sanchez
>unskilled and less motivated workers wanting to get paid 50% - 100% more than they deserve.
...fucking communists man.
Jayden Williams
I've thought about this exact thing a while ago, and come to the conclusion that the reason for no unions in IT is because IT professionals tend to favour negotiating on an individual basis. Think about what makes an IT professional: you'll usually have your individual projects in addition to your work ones on your CV, you'll probably include your hackerrank or whatever the fuck as well to indicate skill level further. Compare this to the majority of unionised jobs: they are either unskilled, or the skill is easily summarised: you either can or you can't do *insert thing*. You could say "existence of university lecturer/teacher unions undermines this theory" and it does to an extent, but the membership in those unions tends to be a lot lower, a lot less involved, and ultimately the really desired guys tend to still bargain with their employer on an individual basis. IT is a very individualised field where you can have all kinds of skill combinations that might be sought after, and most companies pay in all kinds of bands to all kinds of IT employees. There are the ones who get shitloads of cash and benefits on account of experience, and ones who are trainee interns who don't get jack shit. If the interns all decided to bargain for some gain, there's a very high chance that their colleagues who are in a higher band would not share their interests, and thus would not be persuaded to help them in their efforts.
tl;dr: collective bargaining currently works best when a group of workers are mostly equal in skill and the job itself does not require many specialisations, because their interests then align completely.
But if the IT union was ran more like a guild, specialising in making sure its members all have access to adequate training, making sure that employers who fuck over workers are flagged, providing tips for getting the best deal when being hired, and focusing on fighting for legislation that benefits IT workers on the government level, who knows.
Gavin Howard
>Not everyone is as motivated and determined to work hard and pivot when their salary depends on it.
ftfy.
Lincoln Sullivan
Good post and you do have some interesting points which I hadn't thought of but >focusing on fighting for legislation that benefits IT workers on the government level I think the very opposite has been happening. Every single piece of legislation introduced regarding IT is there to fuck us over not the opposite.
Cooper Williams
Wow everyone has a different idea of what IT means
I dont consider programmers or software developers IT in anyway
Mason Davis
I just use the term in the same way wikipedia uses it: anyone who directly works on software/hardware/electronics/semiconductors/web-based services or any combination of the above.
I guess there's also a definition of it that means specifically company-based tech support?
William Sanchez
>Every single piece of legislation introduced regarding IT is there to fuck us over not the opposite. This is pretty much true but doesn't mean that good legislation couldn't be put on the table, just means that the only IT lobbyists that currently exist all lobby for the employers and not the employees
Henry Young
it's cuz a majority of IT "professionals" are glorified white-collar code monkeys. The few people who do have valuable skills have no reason to unionize as they have no trouble competing for high wages.
Modern-day unions are simply a means for low skilled lazy workers to bully companies into hiring them and fucking hard-working individuals in the ass. THERE IS NOTHING HUMANE ABOUT THAT! When was the last time you got black lung from working in IT? When was the last time you lost an arm or leg working in IT? LOL.
We need license like the Doctors. Only if you pass the Google interview should you be able to practice programming.
Lincoln Baker
>that's their problem user do you understand the concept of leverage? Trying to put it into your idea of the world leverage is a means to hold power over someone that allows you to control them involuntarily. It's similar to violence and legal repercussions.
I imagine your problem with regulating hierarchys of employees is more to do with the fact that you're regulating than the results. In the world we live in the lack of options for people is a very effective tool for controlling them. In an anarchist utopia that (axiomatically) isn't the case. But we're not there.
Alexander Richardson
God no, I paid already for the certs I got. Why would I want to pay yearly for a damn license that does what the certs do as is. Plus the more you regulate something the more fucked up it gets. Damn red tape bullshit, All I want is to do is basic helpdesk/pc tech/low network tech stuff. How the hell would regulations/redtape/fucking license bullshit help that any? None at all.
Lucas Johnson
Not that user, but: that's their problem.
My parents are holding leverage over me. They will provide me room, food, and pay for all of my expenses if I get a bachelors from a school and degree on their approved list. Or I can go out there into the world and do what I want to do instead. My parents are holding leverage over me and coercing me to do something I don't want to because it benefits them. However I can only blame myself when twenty years down the road I decide to drive my car into oncoming traffic on the way to work when I realize I could've recognized I was being strong-armed and had a choice, but chose to be a bitch.
Most anyone (even with children and responsibilities) can drop everything and walk away. There will be "catches" and higher prices to pay, but you have that choice. You also have the choice to not do anything and accept your fate.
At the end of the day, you're responsible for your destiny.
Michael Sanchez
>boss hears the word "union" from a single worker >he immediately starts making calls to China and/or India to see how much cheap it would be(if he hasn't already)
IT came along too late to get an effective union. The only effective unions these days are for state jobs(namely police and fire departments)
Jayden Allen
Fuck if someone was paying all my college exp I'd be damn happy. But that's me. I did things different back in the day. No one helped me (they couldn't really, they had they own shit to fool with). I couldn't see the point of college, to many required bullshit classes when what I wanted to do didn't need them or there'd be no way I'd ever use it in the real world. Plus the fact I'd be paying for it up till my mid 30's didn't appeal to me either. So I went and got a bunch of Certs. Qualified me for the line of work I wanted, cost a fraction of college, and no bullshit tossed in. Win win all around.
Blake Phillips
Actually, a feeling of control tends to be an illusion of control in most cases. If your scenario took place in a vacuum, yea anyone could walk away from any job. But most likely what is also happening is: the job market is shit (perpetually since 2007 it seems), there exist mortgage payments/medical bills/other debt that must be continually repaid, there are family obligations that must be taken into account (kids gotta eat, man), etc.
The kind of choice that you're talking about? It only applies to 20 year olds for a very limited amount of time, and I'm honestly surprised there isn't more work related shootings on account of the frustration of people being forced into unsatisfying or insufficient employment on account of economic pressure from other areas.
It's almost as if the personal debt economy was specifically designed to give people strong disincentives to shop around for jobs.
Easton Thompson
Amen to all that.
Joseph Turner
You always have a practical choice to do or not do. It may not be what you precisely want, but you always have a choice to not do something and then face those consequences.
Nathaniel Sanchez
There are a lot of programmers that know fuck all about hardware and front end software
Servers - production operations - networking
I see an it professional is someone who deals with the maintaining or support of these
Blake Thompson
>people who are actually worth something don't need unions. If their employer mistreats them, there'll be plenty of other employers happy to hire them This is not what happens in practice.
I live in what I think is a second-world class economy with high unemployment. Software consulting companies form cartels and pact their low wages among them. They are often run by ex-politicians or friends/family of them. The govt does not punish them because they provide them with disposable workers which otherwise would have to be hired under public servant conditions, which have a lot of more rights and are more expensive to fire.
They are also well known for hiring students as "apprentices" when they are actually doing a full time worker work while receiving little formation in exchange. When hiring regular workers, it is always for the lowest salary possible (now almost the legal minimum) and under the expectance of getting free overtime from them. If you refuse to do overtime they fire you. People often leave ASAP which is usually after 2 years (the 2 years of previous experience that are always demanded by employers).
Because there is so much personnel rotation, they have to be constantly hiring to compensate the huge number of people leaving. The result is that job sites are flooded with offers and this gives other unemployed people the impression that this is a thriving sector, while on the contrary shitty jobs are the norm. This puts even more pressure on wages as more people get into web pages design or programming to get an easy job.
Do I continue? AMA.
Robert White
Unions are basically a mafia that you pay "dues" for protection.
Charles Ross
Because IT people and Americans in general have been pumped full of rich person semen and anti-union propaganda since birth.
William Allen
No thanks. I don't want to give 2% of my pay to a bunch of cucks. I can negotiate for myself just fine.
Brandon Garcia
because IT faggots are libertarian retards brainwashed by their employers and alex jones
Cameron Howard
Unions are the only future left for many workers. Public opinion has been totally washed with right wing propaganda and it's sad to see people regurgitate it. Workers who aren't organized are asking to be taking advantage of, I don't care what trade, there is a class warfare people, and it's time to wake up and support your fellow brother and negotiate with them. The struggle of the people must not die.
Henry Bailey
I’m in a union and it’s great, couldn’t be happier.
Landon James
This.
"Hurrr commies! If you were STRONG enough you would stand ALONE!" -t. Someone who stands to gain from your loss
Charles Reed
Country? What's stopping you from working remotely for foreign companies?
Aiden Richardson
UNions are dying you faggot
>assembling together and bargaining together for a better deal in capitalism is communist
Matthew Anderson
Let's get real here. Slavery contracts will probably be a thing before this century is over, no ancap necessary.
Jonathan Jenkins
IT workers and long haul truckers needed to unionize a decade ago, and they better hurry up before it's too late
for IT the reason they dont is theyve swallowed the 'meritocracy' koolaid and believe a union structure would fuck that up. thing is, preserving your wages against an onslaught of 3rd world import labor is way more important
Jackson Hughes
>unionize >pajeets take over in record numbers
fuck off OP
Alexander Young
Game theory works against you. If you unionize and limit H1Bs, companies will outsource more. Don't forget the critical difference between programming and construction or piloting a plane: you don't need people to be physically in a particular place. Even screenwriting is harder to outsource because the talent pool is small, depends on expert knowledge of English, and inherently local minutia of the movie/television business.
David Perry
Outsourcing to Pajeet in India is already cheaper than paying Pajeet to live in America. So there's obviously some reason the current model favors Pajeet in America
Xavier Watson
This. I already pay for enough overpriced things that finance executive bonuses with little benefit to me.
Alexander Young
Pajeet in India is a pure savage
bring him over & civilize him to serve the white man better
Bentley Jackson
Yes, because you can mix and match between junior Indian and senior American developers. If Americans suddenly get much more expensive, that advantage will be gone and you will start to consider opening an office if not in India, then at least in the Eastern Europe for a good balance of price vs. available senior-level talent.
Brandon Powell
IT people in the US aren't unionized yet companies are still doing everything they can to outsource to third world labor.
So clearly you're a retard.
Daniel Sanders
The solution to that is that if you have a strong union, that union can wield political power to get you what you want. A strong enough union could, for instance, successfully lobby the government and get laws passed making outsourcing American IT labor overseas a capital offense and execute the rich people who do it.
Alexander Bennett
Certs are for the skilless who can't get a college degree. I'd rather hire a pajeet than you.
Daniel Rivera
That's a great way to get all businesses to leave the country you fucking retard.
Owen Sanchez
This guy knows what he's talking about.I'm a union electrician(inside wireman). We do well for two reasons: an electrician needs to be 1) on-site to work and 2) have the skills/training/licenses to do the job. My local has a stranglehold on the area's market share for these reasons: we have the best training in the area and the largest available labor pool (if you're not union, no contractor will hire you because all the area's electrical contractors are signatories with the local union).
The linemen and operators have it even better than us: they basically have a state-wide stranglehold. But that's because they will literally sabotage and physically harm scabs and rat contractors.
IT can largely be outsourced, and it's hard to give overseas pajeets a beat down.
Evan Parker
Because IT and programmers aren't proletarianized. >many have creative, intellectually-engaging work that doesn't alienate them >make professional wages >many also invest in the stock market or have some dream of making a startup (petite bourgeois) >much of the industry is actually parasitic on the workers as a whole (advertising), meaning the programmers are not actually the source of value, but part of the exploiters The "worker consciousness" of tech workers is Libre Software, and that should tell you the whole story. When programmers get fed up with working for corporations, they WORK FOR FREE instead, as a hobby!
Yes, the industry has lots of terrible practices, like crunch time, 72 hour workweeks, crazy management, open desk layouts, etc... but so does Wall Street, and you don't have anyone asking why bankers and stock investors don't unionize. It's obvious why they don't.
David Miller
So? If they don't want to contribute to our country, why should we want them to stay?
>in b4 muh muh profits
Jaxon Stewart
I am not dumb enough to need a union.
Adrian Ross
Why don't you start your own country in the middle of the wilderness if you hate corporations so much?
Carson Long
What’s it like knowing that you have no skill that’s worthy of respect by society? Get back to working with Mexicans
Ryan Martin
Why would I do that when we have one here that can be (theoretically fixed?
Basically, if you're a worker, your interests are fundamentally in opposition to the interests of your employer, so I don't get why people seem to want to white-knight for rich people that will happily throw you into a literal meat grinder if it makes them an extra penny in profit.
Gabriel Howard
Because unlike a lot of professions, a lot of IT work can be outsourced to anywhere on the planet. The moment that the local IT people start getting uppity, management brings in thousands of Pajeets through WiPro etc and completely undercuts the motherfuckers
Carter Bell
>IT can largely be outsourced
federal laws require hospitals to have on-site IT, with the right lobbying that can be expanded to all sorts of sensitive businesses
Dylan Edwards
The solution to that is obvious. If you're for instance a sysadmin and they try to do that, just lock out everyone's accounts, encrypt all the company's files, and shut everything down.
You have leverage. Use it.
Asher Baker
You don't get it, do you? The programmers ARE the rich people.
Cooper Jones
>Remember in 2007 how Hollywood was brought to their knees by striking scriptwriters? That's funny. You should work as a scab writer next strike.
Wyatt Phillips
>t. never worked a job in your life Enjoy getting blacklisted by every future employer and possibly facing criminal charges.
Good goy! Keep on donating 5% of your salary to union fees!
Daniel Campbell
No, they aren't. Programmers can be well off, at least in comparison to really poor people, but programmers aren't "rich." You still work for a wage, that makes you a working person.
Of course doing something like that would be illegal, because corporations make the laws. No one ever said that protecting and advocating workers' interests would be easy. I mean, people in the past literally had to fight gun battles in the street to get things from their employers such as weekends and basic safety regulations.
Josiah Mitchell
A better approach would be credentialism Like Doctors or Lawyers You have to pass the foobar exam Only X0,000 new programmers allowed each year for low values of X Only credentialed programmers then are allowed to write production code Get that written into law All programmers who pass the foobar must swear allegiance to the profession, again like doctors None of this rushing code out the door to meet arbitrary ship dates It's done when it's done Safety first
Asher Martinez
The best of us are too smart to fall for the union meme, but in a few years you'll probably see unionization of all of the "womyn in tech" and "diversity hires"
Logan Gomez
No corporation would hire someone with a past history of tampering with company data. I think you have your Guy Fawkes mask on a bit too tight.
Parker Gutierrez
yeah that worked out great for our healthcare system didn't it?
Jeremiah Murphy
Have you seen doctors' salaries? Programmers are plebs by comparison.
Ethan Russell
And that's what a union is for. If we all are involved in it, then they don't have a choice but to deal with us. Of course, the actual solution is simply to publicly execute rich people until they fall into line.
Ayden Hernandez
It worked great for doctors. Never seen one living in mom's basement at age 25
Bentley Myers
oh look it's another sedition thread by pubescent or permachildren larping as intellectual revolutionaries
Owen Davis
you can't get paid more if you suck at your job
David Lopez
Nice delusion. A 22 year old working at Google will make more than a 30 year old doctor $300k in debt from medical school. By the time the doctor finally paid off his debt the programmer will have enough to retire on, and make more off capital gains only than a doctor working 80 hours a week.
Brandon Parker
and government contracts requiring use of the women/diversity IT unions. theyll have lobbyists, afterall
Owen Evans
>sedition thread What?
Hunter Miller
You start executing rich people and they will leave this shithole of a country and take the economy with them. America will become the new Africa.
Jordan Bennett
Again, why would we want people here who don't actually care about the country? If they're going to do their best to destroy it either way, why do we tolerate them?
Cooper Edwards
Why don't you move to North Korea? Everyone is patriotic there.
Juan Bailey
I'm 27. Without giving too much away, I make a little over a quarter mil a year off of an embedded device I made for a company I worked and and went in 20(me)/80 on the profits. It's only my first product but damn it sure feels great to take it from just an idea to a product that people use and love, and constantly ask when we are getting more. I go on business trips to our factory and suppliers in China, and I basically have full autonomy on the project.
Training: lurking Sup Forums since 2007 (Sup Forums is shit now, can't post anything but political threads and watch/smartphone threads) Experience: grinding hard on programming and electronics
Austin Roberts
You didn't answer my question. I take an antibiotic if I have an infection in my body. If I have a roommate who is intent on trashing my place, I kick him out. Why not get rid of people who would rather kill you than pay you for your work if they had a choice?
Jaxon Hill
>A 22 year old working at Google will
be homeless, living out of the back of a truck in the Google parking lot.
I've never seen a doctor living in a uhaul in the hospital parking lot.
Benjamin Campbell
oh and also I took the jobs that I needed and the deal that I needed, not the deal I wanted. That's how you do business. You skills are your leverage, not some gay union that doesn't mean anything when people like me are around. Sharks who will eat you for lunch. Snipers who will take you out and you never saw it coming. You don't know how worthless you are, lmao. Seriously, just grind and get on my level it's actually easier than wallowing in your own self pity.
my boss wouldn't kill me, i'm making him millions of dollars a year
Jackson Torres
A union is *also* leverage. There are lots of different types of leverage, and they are all just as legitimate as any other.
Samuel Walker
>seriously comparing student to employed professional
Bentley Foster
Would you rather live in North Korea then? There aren't any rich people there not paying workers.
Liam Gray
>i am legitimate, guys i am legitimate!!!!!!
Hunter Hughes
If he could get away with it, he sure as hell wouldn't pay you anything. And we can look at how American companies behave in other countries, or even in our own country's past, to see how little they value human life in the face of making money.
Hint: They don't value human life.
Asher Gray
take your LOLcialist ideas down the street with the homeless trannies, they always love a good sob story