In Mexico, Santa Muerte, or "Saint Death," is a female Saint who looks like the grim reaper...

In Mexico, Santa Muerte, or "Saint Death," is a female Saint who looks like the grim reaper. She is the patron saint of murderers, drug dealers, and criminals in general, and is widely worshipped among people of those trades.

Okay

She's not the patron siant of anyone, their religion doesn't work like that. It's more of a syncretism of Catholic and surperstitious belief systems with their roots in Mesoamerica. Yes, it has become a part of criminal subculture but it isn't limited to it, nor are the practitioners worshiping "evil" per se.

Don't they worship her before and after they do some criminal thing? And didn't the Catholic Church denounce her? And don't normal people avoid her?

>Saint.
>Worship
The protestant filth is strong in this one.

dem I love that goddess. Wish we had such cult over here.

I don't know if there was a formal denunciation by the episcopacy (I would assume there was, if not from Mexican bishops then from Mexican priests), but the Church certainly could not possibly endorse such pagan fiction.

>catholics

No, plenty of public celebrations

It's not Catholic at all. If you want to take pot shots at us for being morbid, at least present something grounded in reality.

they have the coolest stuff.

>syncretism of Catholic and surperstitious belief systems with their roots in Mesoamerica
You can't compare that to Mesoamerican religion, it's a complete degeneration in every sense

before and after

The Church I think is upset in that much like Malverde followers most of these people consider themselves Catholic and continue using sacraments.

And no man, it's like any other religion except with fucking creepy props (some guys close to where I live I know keep a couple of human skulls) and while there are some sacrificial aspects (you hear some fucked up stories) 99% of the time is just prayers, wearing talismans, lighting candles and giving minor offerings (flowers). They have mandas but that's also an aspect of Mexican Catholicism (a promise you'll do something that pleases God if he answers your paryers) which already has a very blured line due to syncretism, indigenous peoples often turn on their heads figurines of saints if they feel they are not delivering on prayers for instance. Do keep in mind Dia de Muertos is officially celebrated by the church here (including setting up altars) and that the figure of Mary, which is by far the most important Christian symbol for Mexicans, does draw heavily from the cult to Aztec goddess Tonantzin.

I'm more familiar with Malverde's following (that's an unofficial patron sainty to the narcos in Sinaloa) and criminals don't pray for themselves (they know they're evil and beyond salvation) but for their children and families. Malverde was a sort of Robin Hood type figure who defied the law in order to help the people as per the legend, he was denied Christian burial and people started building a cairn by offering a stone for every prayer answered, but they don't ask for evil things (eg their enemy dying) just not to get caught say smugloing something across the border in the understanding they'll use some of the profits for charity. I think Santa Muerte works a lot like that as well, it isn't a different set of morals. Sinaloenses don't geenrally behead people or do gruesome killings BTW despite being the most powerful cartel. They are more efficient killers however.

>criminals don't pray for themselves (they know they're evil and beyond salvation
Fools. This is eternal sin.

Lel reminds of the dark brotherhood from elder scrolls

That's why I specifically noted belief systems with their roots in Mesoamerica, I acknowledge is not the same thing as the old religion and that these practices lack a theology proper, hence superstitious. In all fairness Santa Muerte has evolved into actual writings and a cosmogony so they may actually have te foundations of a theological system.

Yes, they might make a manda prior to doing something difficult (particularly if they take life as they need to square away with death) and symbolic offerings after, but it isn't like they just call upon Saint Death for crime only (eg if you have a sick relative she can also stay her hand) it is an everyday religion for many. In Mexico City the cult is strongly centered on Tepito (which is where many of the Tamemes and other low class Aztecs were originally banished to so disregarding the connection is just wishful thinking. Yes, they never kept their beliefs pure, the grim reaper itself is a European symbol, and from talking to taxistas I know they may have drwn from many other other modern sources, from Traben's Macario to, surprisingly enough, Nigthmare before Christmas, but the basic and the essence of many of their beliefs are Aztec.

Holy shit is Mexican culture really this vitiated and intellectually corrupt? And I thought the states were bad.

Jesus Malverde seems pretty nice, I have never venerated him though.

CHI

> high quality informative nonshitposting on a Georgian Beet Farming newsletter

CA

Yes

>Don't they worship her before and after they do some criminal thing?
In my shithole there's a chapel where they worship Malverde because they are afraid of Santa Muerte.

>mexico
>"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""catholic"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Yes, with the rate at which countries like yours have abandoned Christianity we may very well become the last ones left.

In all fairness we understand the gospel as being pacifist, for the poor and not about judging our neighbours, so colorful practices and all we always were the better Christians.

i cant help but laugh when a fatyfuck talks like this

I wouldn't be too smug in light of the 2014 Pew poll.

In any case, I genuinely find elements of Latin American Catholicism disconcerting. Not only because of this syncretism between Catholic faith and folk superstition, if not outright paganism, but because of your clergy also. This obsession with the "social gospel," the ratification of liberation theology in 1968, what I can only describe as an obsession with the temporal over the eternal, etc. I understand many of these issues are not exclusively Mexican but, still.

It's called salvation through works, I realize Protestants have a problem with that but Catholics believe that being a good Christian isn't just a private thing but you actually have to act. Jesus despised the wealthy and loved the poor, read the gospels if you have any doubt about what the wealthy should do with what they own.

For people who believe in sola sriptura you sure have a very convoluted way of reading something that's pretty clear and straightforward.

You understand you're not talking to a Protestant, right? I'm in pre-postulancy for the Order of Preachers with a degree in theology from the Scholasticum in Bagnoregio. I reject each of the solas as errors in turn.

I don't know what this is if not a defensive posture in response to legitimate and rationally-grounded concerns about the state of the Church in Latin America. You have addressed nothing I said and have accomplished nothing apart from clearly communicating that you take umbrage at anything resembling criticism of Mexican Catholicism and the aforesaid "social gospel". I say that with all charity.

who cares fagot

> Canadian theologists shitpost on Sup Forums
How can one country be so BASED?

And I'm an atheist just trolling someone who obviously doesn't understand syncretism as in which is actually not a heresy unique to Mexico tbqh.

Sure as fun as it is to read about Garrido Canabal forcing priests to marry, I do remain a cultural Catholic and have a healthy respect for sincere faith of which there's plenty in Mexico. So a widow likes to cook her former's husband favorite meal in Dia de Muertos and imagine he smiles at her, it doesn't take away from the sincere practice of the basic tenets of Christianity like following Catholicism to the letter is ultimately inhumane, I would refer you to Dostoievsky on that, and requires an enormous number of mental gymnastics to justify clearly irrational practices (Oposition to women in priesthood, celibacy, stance on LGBT and contraception, etc.) at least Mexican catholicism is mostly benign (we had to fight a good couple of civil wars to defang it) and not a part of the problem as it is in Africa.

And is beautiful, Mexico is probably the one country which can compete with Europeans on this, form the vibrancy of posadas to the glories of Churrigueresco. So if Mexicans devaite a bit on a couple of issues from the religion as practiced in Rome it isn't really a motive for alarm anymore than the particulars of say Maronites and their rites, what is ultimately important is that their faith works for them and not the other way around.

why?

>which is actually not a heresy unique to Mexico tbqh.
It is not unique, nor is it a heresy but the sole sin which has been deemed eternal by Christ himself; that is, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Syncretism really does not enter into the equation in this particular instance.

>Oposition to women in priesthood
Not in the least irrational. It is a decision which is wholly rational. If the Lord has chosen purely men as His apostles, which is demonstrably true, and we accept that the Lord is in no wise arbitrary, which is a teaching of the Church, then it is logical to conclude that He chose among the people only men for a particular reason, even if we cannot articulate or adequately explain that reason.

Further, being that the Deposit of Faith is constituted by both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and it has been the Church's tradition to administer the Sacrament of Holy Orders to men exclusively since Her foundation, we naturally preserve this tradition rather than altering it for essentially purely inclusionary reasons. That is what traditio is.

>celibacy
Again, not irrational but the opposite. If Christ is the highest good, the most exemplary and perfect [God-]man who has ever lived and ever will live, does it not stand to reason that the Catholic's chief pursuit in life, apart from obeying the Moral Law at all times, is to imitate Christ with the aid of the graces bestowed upon him by God? Thus, the clergy imitates the celibate, virgin Christ because celibacy, evidently, possesses a higher degree of sanctity than does marriage - a point iterated by St. Paul.

>stance on LGBT and contraception
This is a large issue in and of itself, so I will instead recommend that you read St. Thomas Aquinas' explication of the matter in his Summa so that you may clearly understand how perfectly rational the Catholic position is.

(cont.)

>And is beautiful, Mexico is probably the one country which can compete with Europeans on this,
This no one can deny you. I hope to make pilgrimage to the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe one day.

>So if Mexicans devaite a bit on a couple of issues from the religion as practiced in Rome it isn't really a motive for alarm anymore than the particulars of say Maronites and their rites
The difference is that Mexico is, and has always been Latin Rite. And in any case, we are not discussing liturgical variance or cultural and customary practices; we are discussing key theological issues and matters of concern related to doctrine, specifically the Church's social teaching. If these things are abused or corrupted in some way, it really does not matter which Rite one adheres to.

CHI

Catholicism is a crazy death cult. It's not surprising that it resonated so well with the natives.

It's not a death cult. What are you even talking about?

lol

RULE 34, NOW