Why

why

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DUDE OPEN TUNING LMAO

nice pentas

why not
it fits the description of post-rock

The last 3 Swans records are tagged as Post-Rock, and they're pretty much the same thing, so why not?

Explain how it is Post-Rock.

Also, nice quints

Be the change you want to see in RYM

It's close enough that a few votes would get rid of it

Explain how it's not.

The use of dynamics and rock instrumentation in a non-traditional rock manner are similar to Post-Rock. While it is definitely not primarily a Post-Rock record, it definitely has elements that would be furthered by later bands in the Post-Rock genre, hence why it is a secondary and not a primary.

you have no idea what post-rock is do you?

It has light elements of Post-Rock, but the structure and composition of each track is very different. It's notated music performed in a non-repetitive "crescendocore" way.

Exactly, it has light elements of it, which is why it is secondary. Those elements are used frequently and prominently enough to warrant it being a secondary genre.

all crescendocore is postrock, but not all postrock is crescendocore

This discussion again?

Post rock is not a genre

Are you telling me that all crescendoshit is post-rock?

Extremely light.
To the point that it has nothing to do with the genre.
It's anachronistic to say that an album so far before a genre is related to that genre.
All post-rock is based around repetitions of a groove, which is not what The Ascension is about.

Yeah you have absolutely 0 clue what post-rock is about

Hello 2002!!

Show me your academic definition of Post-Rock then.
Glenn Branca wrote composed/written music with linear, non-repetitious developments.
It's not Post-Rock, it's Post-Minimalism/Totalism and nothing else.

Lemme pull up a brief summary of Post-rock as a genre I wrote a while back.

"Post-rock is a rather broad of rock music that is defined as "rock instrumentation for non-rock purposes". It basically refers to bands that value atmosphere, timbre and texture over melodies, riffs and rhythms, have unusual or sometimes even no song structures, and
more often than not employ some form of extended technique

Examples of the primogenitors of the genre include Talk Talk's last 2 albums (and Mark Hollis' only debut album), Slint's second and last release, Tortoise' discography, Pram's only album, Magnog's first release, and the rather massive Swans album Soundtracks for the Blind. This is known as "first wave post-rock".

Later (and more popular) bands in the genre that continued to develop it include Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Sigur Ros, Mogwai, A Silver Mt. Zion, Set Fire to Flames, Hangedup, and Cerberus Shoal.

Eventually however a band named Explosions in the Sky released their debut right around the time that the second list of bands (known as "second wave post-rock") popped up. Their style consisted of repetitious crescendos, excessive amounts of reverb and rather predictable and formulaic song structures, very reminiscent of a more watered down and poppier version of GY!BE mentioned above. This is where what is known as "third wave post-rock" begins, and generally represents the downfall of boundary pushing in post-rock and the beginning of a vicious cycle of constantly copying each other to see who can rip off GY!BE and Mogwai the most.

At this current point in time Post-rock is in a sorry state. Only a few bands still do things which are underivative and interestingly, namely post-revival GY!BE, post-revival Swans, and newcomers Kairon;IRSE. The rest are caught in the endless cycle of third wave post-rock or are simply making uninteresting music."

Now take your shit elsewhere

You listed exclusively bands based off of repetitious grooves, therefore disqualifying Branca from that label.

Also under your broad definition would you say Steve Reich's Electric Counterpoint and 2x5 are Post Rock?

>talk talk
>bark pyschosis
>a silver mt. zion
>set fire to flames
>pram
>soundtracks for the blind
>repetitious grooves
Are you some sort of special retard?

Neither even qualify as rock in the first place. Stop trying to be a smartass.

You sound like someone who just discovered RYM's modern classical charts for the first time

Have you listened to their music?
Talk Talk ASMZ and Soundtracks are absolutely based around repetitions
The others I haven't heard in a while but the fact that you think something as blatantly groove based as SFTB isnt groove based proves your ignorance

You yourself said:
>rock instrumentation for non-rock purposes
So is your definition useless?

Holy fuckin shit you're an idiot

Talk Talk (especially Laughing Stock) barely even have drums on most of the songs, what fucking grooves are you talking about? Most of the songs are extremely structureless too, nevermind repetitious.

Soundtracks is a rare Swans album that sacrifices the raw repetition for more prog-like song structures. Are you sure you've even heard it?

I'll give you ASMZ.

>I haven't heard in a while
Translation: I've never heard these bands' music before despite the fact that they are incredibly entry level and virtually anyone who talks even the slightest shit about post-rock knows who they are.

Oh sure, we all know how fucking groovy The Final Sacrifice is.

I also said
>Post-rock is a rather broad subgenre of rock music

I was also typing that at 3am on my mobile phone, so I missed out the word "subgenre".

Could you try harder please?

>Translation: I've never heard these bands' music before
Hahaha no, I definitely have heard bark psychosis kid. It bored me hence why I haven't returned and haven't explored that dead end genre further.
So then Glenn Branca is rock music because...why? What separates Branca from Reich? Both wrote music in non repetitious ways. Both WROTE their music.

Good definition.
Just end your life already, nobody will miss you

>kid
Nice projection btw

So apparently you've not actually heard anything from the genre other than what, 2, 3 albums and are now giving me your "groove" bullshit based off of that?

Come on man.

Henry Cow wrote non-repetitious music and actually wrote their compositions down on paper, they're post-minimalism and totalism now too?

Where did you get your music education?

>So apparently you've not actually heard anything from the genre other than what, 2, 3 albums
I said I recognized at least 4 artists on your specific list, and I've heard plenty more than that. Not my fault you fail to analyze music structurally.
Henry Cow uses lyrical song forms I thought? I need to revisit them. But yes they could be.

>and I've heard plenty more than that
Ah yes, Swans, Talk Talk, A Silver Mt. Zion, Bark Psychosis, the list goes on...

They have plenty of instrumental pieces too. See their final album, Western Culture.

Also considering that Karlheinz Stockhausen abhorred repetition and wrote composed music he is also now post-minimalism and totalism?

>Also considering that Karlheinz Stockhausen abhorred repetition and wrote composed music he is also now post-minimalism and totalism?
...name the pieces you are thinking about. Depending on the work yes it might be.

Oh wait you said abhorred repetition
Do you not know what post minimalism or totalism are?

Let's bring up his most famous work, Hymnen.

If you call even think to call that minimalism in the slightest you are truly the special retard I mentioned earlier

But you were the one who brought up
>What separates Branca from Reich? Both wrote music in non repetitious ways. Both WROTE their music.
And
>It's not Post-Rock, it's Post-Minimalism/Totalism and nothing else.
So therefore by your totally sound logic Stockhausen must now be Post-minimalism or Totalism.

How about we bring up a Post Minimal work by him, Stimmung?
You clearly don't know Stockhausen at least.
No answer my question. Do you know what those genres are?

>name a work, any work!
>no, not that one, i wanted you to pick this one! dummy!
k

I'm just using your own words against you. What those genres are or mean is not the point of what I'm trying to do here.

The fact you don't know Stocky wrote minimal music shows that you don't know your own rhetoric.
I can explain to you what Post Minimalism and Totalism are if you want me to.

I do know he wrote minimal music. My point is that I intentionally picked a non-minimal composition (and not even any random composition, I picked his most famous and renowned work damnit) to prove to you that your own logic is completely broken.

Also since apparently if a composer does even minimalist composition they are now post-minimalism let's pick someone else.

Brian Ferneyhough. How's that?


I know what both are, you're still missing the point.

>My point is that I intentionally picked a non-minimal composition (and not even any random composition, I picked his most famous and renowned work damnit) to prove to you that your own logic is completely broken.
He's a composer who wrote in several incredibly varying styles. I fail to see any point you're trying to put across. He did write post minimal music.
>I know what both are
No, you don't. But fine, I'll explain it for you:

Post-minimalism and Totalism both involve repetition. However, it's not a raw, repeating phrase a la Post-Rock. It's not a phrase that is repeated the entire time and just layered upon.
Post-Minimalism involves a development of the pattern through musical devices, be they motivic development, rhythmic development, etc. It's basically Minimalism with other styles and forms in consideration.

Totalism is somewhat related, however it's more focused on a droning sort of "total" sound. It's based on an idea of surface tension and complex tonality and rhythm in Minimalism.

So now that you know what they are, you can see how they are different from Post-Rock which, as with the artists you listed earlier, is focused around one phrase repeated until all the instruments are added, without any motivic or rhythmic development.

Yeah, that's exactly why I picked him. Because he's written so much music that's all so incredibly varied that it'd be ultimately retarded to even consider him minimalist as a whole.

Which you seem to not understand. He may have had several minimalist works but many of his other works (especially his string quartets, personal favorites of mine) are nowhere near minimalist and have so little repetition they almost sound improvised at points.

God you're a pretentious fuck.

I have RYM to define the genres for me (that is in the first place if I didn't know what they were), and judging from the fact you have 0 grasp of the concept or definition of a genre as simple as post-rock I doubt I'd trust any definition for any genre that you give

>Which you seem to not understand. He may have had several minimalist works but many of his other works (especially his string quartets, personal favorites of mine) are nowhere near minimalist and have so little repetition they almost sound improvised at points.
I never claimed that an artist or composer would be entirely one genre, don't be ridiculous.
>I have RYM to define the genres for me
So that's why you don't have any comprehension of what musically defines each genre? You realize RYM is maintained by people who have no education in musical styles or comprehension?

You're basically going to the Wikipedia page for Metal Gear Solid and saying "Yeah it's totally so Postmodern man just read the article." Just because some uneducated idiot thinks they know what a genre/style is doesn't mean it's legitimate on a user-curated page.

Find a legitimate source to prove me wrong.

But you literally shot down the notion that Stockhausen was not minimalist just because you managed to mention one single work by him with elements of minimalism.

Are you sure it's me that's being ridiculous?

And now you're telling me that every single moderator on RYM is not musically educated in any shape or form. You're also now telling me that one must have a musical education to understand genre definitions.

Good job, also you're still smug, assuming, pretentious, judgemental and incredibly dense.

>But you literally shot down the notion that Stockhausen was not minimalist just because you managed to mention one single work by him with elements of minimalism.
I think saying Stockhausen was any one style is itself a stupid idea.
>Are you sure it's me that's being ridiculous?
100% incontrovertibly.
>And now you're telling me that every single moderator on RYM is not musically educated in any shape or form.
Yeah, have you used the website for anything other than rock music?
>You're also now telling me that one must have a musical education to understand genre definitions.
I'm telling you that a definition on a user-curated website primarily populated by teenagers who have never and will never understand the first thing about writing music is not a good definition, and you should damn well know that if you're any older than 16.

Correct. But you never addressed the fact that I brought up Hymnen and you completely ignored that in lieu of another of his works that fit your definition because, well, cognitive dissonance is a nasty thing.

Oh nice I'm glad to see you discovered your mother's thesaurus.

Are you kidding me? I've just been going toe to toe with you on Stockhausen and minimalism and you're telling me that I use the site only for rock music?

At this point you're just attempting to shoehorn in the old rockist stereotype to try and gain whatever little leverage you can here.

But where is any of that information coming from? Is that backed up by any cited sources or is it simply an incredibly weak strawman?

You sounded incredibly offended when I mentioned RYM. Is it because you've had negative experiences with the site? Is this you trying to get back at them through me?

Why do you always do this boldfaure?

>Correct. But you never addressed the fact that I brought up Hymnen and you completely ignored that in lieu of another of his works that fit your definition because, well, cognitive dissonance is a nasty thing.
Stockhausen wrote Serial, Indeterminate, Minimal/Post-minimal, Electroacoustic, and other works. What is your point?
>Are you kidding me? I've just been going toe to toe with you on Stockhausen and minimalism and you're telling me that I use the site only for rock music?
Is this a joke?
>But where is any of that information coming from? Is that backed up by any cited sources or is it simply an incredibly weak strawman?
The definition of Totalism is from Kyle Gann.
The definition of Post-Minimalism comes from my own studies in Music History as well as the various discussions from Steve Reich and other Post Minimal composers.

My point is that you trying to use the argument that any music that lacks repetition and is composed on paper counts as post-minimalism/totalism is a purely retarded and utterly stupid thing to do.

I genuinely hope this entire conversation so far has been some sort of joke because this is a level of stupidity only matched by the likes of Montie.

No you fool, where is your source that RYM is "primarily populated by teenagers who have never and will never understand the first thing about writing music"?

While I agree that it has some elements of the so called post-rock, it's an anachronistic use of the word. I don't think it should be there, even as a secondary genre

>My point is that you trying to use the argument that any music that lacks repetition and is composed on paper counts as post-minimalism/totalism is a purely retarded and utterly stupid thing to do.
I defined them above: If you can't understand what I mean by the difference between Laughing Stock, Spiderland, SFTB, etc. and Drumming, Music for 18 Musicians, In the White Silence, et cetera...then you just don't understand anything about music.
>because this is a level of stupidity only matched by the likes of Montie.
Montie doesn't know anything about music. I know quite a bit. And I know that you saying you know Stockhausen and minimalism is not impressive in the slightest. You're the same as the average Sup Forumstant and Fantano.
>No you fool, where is your source that RYM is "primarily populated by teenagers who have never and will never understand the first thing about writing music"?
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rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=alltime&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=classical music&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=
rateyourmusic.com/customchart?page=1&chart_type=top&type=album&year=alltime&genre_include=1&include_child_genres=1&genres=modern classical&include_child_genres_chk=1&include=both&origin_countries=&limit=none&countries=

Three sources right there.

Checked

But I understand all of those, and much more. You are simply attempting to use the same old arguments you've used on everyone else, and that has worked considering said people have little to no understanding of music theory or composition. Unfortunately that's not the case with me.

You know quite a bit? Like what, the definition of post-rock?

Ah, so your sources are "stop liking what I don't like"? Fantastic

>You know quite a bit? Like what, the definition of post-rock?
Yes, I defined it already in far more effective musical terms than you.
>Ah, so your sources are "stop liking what I don't like"?
If you're going to tell me OK Computer, Music for 18 Musicians being the top picks for the All-Time and Modern/All-time Classical charts ISN'T a mark upon their maturity, then you're clueless.

What's your background in classical music? How old are you?

Oh yes "groove based repetitions" is certainly the definition of post-rock

They may not be the greatest of all time but they certainly are not awful either.

I'm a classically trained pianist, I have learnings in jazz guitar, and I have much, much more musical knowledge than, I'd wager, 75% of the board. And that's being humble. I'm 20 years old.

>They may not be the greatest of all time but they certainly are not awful either.
Never said they were, but their placements speak volumes. If Le Sacre was #1 for Modern Classical I wouldn't give a single shit, trust me. But MF18M? Come on.
(and I remember Karajan's Beethoven was #1 at one time, so the userbase is becoming even younger maybe?)

Yeah but what extended coursework have you done? I agree that puts you above other people on the board but it doesn't necessarily mean you have an academic knowledge of musical styles.

>he thinks all crescendocore = post-rock
>he doesn't know about Talk Talk, Bark Psychosis, Long Fin Killie, Tortoise, or Dirty Three
go back to /r/music

From that arbitrary list I know about Talk Talk, Bark Psych, and Tortoise.
You go back, you'd fit in great.

Yes, MF18M is a ridiculously overrated work. It's definitely good and is one of Steve Reich's best but nowhere near no. 1. Still, it's not an awful pick for greatest modern classical work of all time.

Why do I need to have done extended coursework to have a decent knowledge of a genre of music. If anything it seems like it has done you no good considering your definition of post-rock is so vague and weak.

>Still, it's not an awful pick for greatest modern classical work of all time.
I'd say it definitely is, but oh well.
>Why do I need to have done extended coursework to have a decent knowledge of a genre of music.
Because just learning piano does not inherently give you knowledge about the historical development of musical form and style from 1000AD to contemporary music. That requires extensive study.

I'll admit I have never been the greatest fan of music theory or history for the matter. However that doesn't mean that I haven't done my own research and my own personal studying in my free time.

But relying on RYM is not good.

But most of my own personal knowledge of classical music history is not from RYM?

You said you got genre definitions from RYM.

That is for genres I don't understand. I was already long completed with my personal studying when I discovered RYM and created my account

But then why would you bring it up for defining Post Minimalism and Totalism

you know what forget it we've gone so far outside the original discussion that we might as well stop

Because you assumed that I did not understand either genre and defined it for me, in which I replied that I'd rather use RYM to define said genres if I didn't understand them.

And yes this has long exited the realm of The Ascension being post-rock

Post-rock isn't a genre, it's a catch all term for what at the time, was experimental rock music that fell outside of conventional rock song structures and arrangements.

It was idiot music journalists who came up with the term, and we're still stuck with it today.