>>65709867 old thread

old thread


An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists

This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music. But remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any art music, such as jazz, is acceptable

Post clyps, and please post accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective

>Theory
tobyrush.com/theorypages/index.html
>tl;dr version
gumroad.com/l/tldrmusic#

>Basic composing
youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw

composer.rowy.net/

>Score Reference Library
imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page

>Fux's Counterpoint
opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf

>Free Notation Software
musescore.org/

>Score Preparation Guide
musiciandevelopment.com/2016/05/16/how-to-prepare-a-professional-score/

>Orchestral Preparation Guideline
mola-inc.org/article/Music-Preparation-Guidelines-for-Orchestral-Music.pdf

>Orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakov)
northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration

>Orchestration Online Blog
orchestrationonline.com/

>Bandestration blog.
bandestration.com/

>Sam Adler's Study of Orchestration, 3rd Ed.
www52.zippyshare.com/v/w473HFOA/file.html

>Takadimi: A Beat - Oriented System of Rhythm Pedagogy
takadimi.net/documents/TakadimiArticle.pdf

>Teoria - Music Theory General Guides/Articles
teoria.com/index.php

>Musictheory.net - General music theory with accompanying exercises and tests. Great for practice.
musictheory.net/

>Succint but insightful theory up to contemporary techniques such as serialism and set theory
learnmusictheory.net/

And feel free to expand!

Other urls found in this thread:

mediafire.com/download/f1zbff56mxufhce/Norden_Hugo_Foundation_studies_in_Fugue.pdf
soundcloud.com/islandroster/danza-soprano
youtube.com/channel/UCqUEaKts92UIstFjrz9BfcA/live
dropbox.com/s/ccl3vd5f9kbj0dm/comp session 1.zip?dl=0
mikejamesjazz.com/media/br_clips/london_041083/set_one/01_ya_gotta_try.mp3
mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html
mikejamesjazz.com/writing_music_05_arr_comp.html
hucbald.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-music-works-chapter-one.html
clyp.it/lkf3djvr
clyp.it/10lidytn
youtube.com/watch?v=X47v0Mz3N-k
clyp.it/mo2xszio
clyp.it/wihf01va
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

You forgot the title OP.

Also, adding this link because it is are amazing and was not added:

>Foundation Studies in Fugue
mediafire.com/download/f1zbff56mxufhce/Norden_Hugo_Foundation_studies_in_Fugue.pdf

Also here's a miniature I finished a couple months back that is meant for soprano. Hoping to get some feedback. Any questions about what is happening in the piece are welcome.

soundcloud.com/islandroster/danza-soprano

The rhythmic independence of the voices was what really drew me into the piece.

Did this have any Eastern influence? I'm getting some eastern vibes off of it

Hey, can't post with trip right now (mobile).

Thank you, the rhythmic elements are indeed one of the main aspects of this piece, it's a rather simple process I've been developing but as you can hear it yields an interesting product.

As to the eastern influences, I'm curious as to where you hear them. Would you mind expanding? The piece is almost entirely diatonic and operating within its key.

Thanks : )

It's probably just my ear, I was listening to some Romanian and Middle Eastern music awhile ago

You're welcome :)

ded

Remember the YouTube composition stream is at 6:00, P.M. tonight, US Central Time. Like two hours away.

This first stream will just about basic music theory and notation so we can really discuss composition easily. Harmony will be addressed in the next stream (a week away? is that good for everyone?)

I don't have a mic right now, so I'll be responding in the chat bx to all inquiries. I'm using MuseScore to show examples, and will provide all the notes I used in the description of the video.


I'll post the YouTube link in this thread

Go ahead m8

Looking forward to it

Here's some OC

>it's upside-down

there we go, I flipped it for you

bump for stream soon

youtube.com/channel/UCqUEaKts92UIstFjrz9BfcA/live

Here's the stream! Can you see it okay?

yes.

How could we advertise this? I mean the point of it is to get people who don't know theory watching, isn't it?

Yeah. I'm the dude broadcasting BTW

make a new thread to get people in the youtube room

Thanks man, my mobile is fucky

Aw shit man it wasn't my phone they were actually upside down

I must have been super high damn

I did not anticipate how terrible my computer would be with this stream, damn.

well I already learned something. that is why the harmonic/melodic minor exists

Bump for stream likeness.

>non-perfect octaves have no reason to exist
I mean, if you have bitonality going on with one line in A and one in G#/Ab, either the first or the second of the G#/Ab key is bound to be a non-perfect octave

Unless it's in G# Phrygian or something

Ya, theres definately applications that are theoretically justified, very rarely in lets say "common practice" though

I recently was playing a schoenberg piece piano reduction and it had some diminished octaves that made perfect sense though, ill see if ican find them

I do think there are certain situations where it works and is actually executed brilliantly, but the vast majority of tonal music avoids it.

Thank you user emouse senpai :) that was awsome

You're welcome

well its not so much about how it sounds as it is just "why would this be a b8th instead of a 7tth of some kind notationally"

But like i said i have seen times where it made more sense, polytonality is one example like other user mentioned

Looking forward to the next.

I never actually took fundamentals, so some of these basic concepts I'm thinking about in a new light.

Same time next week?

Alright, reuploaded the notes to Dropbox if you want it without errors

dropbox.com/s/ccl3vd5f9kbj0dm/comp session 1.zip?dl=0

Same time next week, I'll be teaching harmony off of Yarn's notes

I might do that, what do you guys think?

So why is there a harmonic AND a melodic minor? They both have the leading tone so what is the purpose of having a different minor scale with a natural 6th instead of a flatted one?

Because the melodic fixes the sixth - seventh minor third step. The harmonic keeps it for harmony, so it can have a minor sixth in chords

I'm not sure of the historical reason to be completely honest, i mean the raised 7th has a very specific harmonic purpose whereas the 6th is only really raised to lead melodically to the 7th, but ya, i dont see why you wouldnt just have 1 "altered minor" or whatever with both and be done with it.

>I might do that, what do you guys think?

It will defiantly bring more people into the lesson... But the shitposters will come in hordes

augmented second step*

Maybe I'll upload it after the live stream is done.

*blush*

what can i say

And this is where you start to realize harmonic/melodic minor are really just the ancient masters' way of using chromaticism while not calling it chromaticism

That's probably either oversimplification or actually dead wrong, but that's my guess anyway

I made a thread

ya im not sure, cause of course before major/minor it was modes, but modes represented all possible orders of the 7 pitches whereas major and minor only represent 2, im not sure how they were singled out and developed further
ill ask my teacher about it maybe

Most of the anons here have more or less said it, but a more succinct way of saying it is that the raised 6th leads into the 7th without having to leap an augmented second for better melodic fluidity. Notice that this only happens when ascending and reverts back to natural minor while descending, thus establishing your minor mode.

Ultimately, the greatest differing factor in between minor and major is the third. That flattened third is the defining feature of the minor mode.

I think the page on the left is upside-down... the right one looks right though... am I insane?

It's because those scales are just a condensation of the compositional technique of the raised 7th for tonality purposes, and the raised 6th for smooth ascending line purposes. The scales weren't invented to fix these issues, composers just wrote good sounding music and then later on these scales were extracted from those techniques. That's why melodic minor varies ascending and descending in the classical idiom, but is fixed up and down in the jazz idiom, since the scales are derived from usage.

That's right.

In my opinion the major mode was "singled out" because of a gravitation to functional harmony, as in tonic, dominant, subdominant functions. In other modes, these functions are not as clear. In minor even, these functions aren't clear without raised 7ths.

one of 'em is upside down, the other isn't

speaking of jazz, the OP pic this thread is a jazz /comp/ instead of a classical on

the performance (one of em) of "Ya gotta try", from Buddy Rich is here

mikejamesjazz.com/media/br_clips/london_041083/set_one/01_ya_gotta_try.mp3

Composed by Sammy Nestico

For more versions : mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html


For more /jazz/ /comp/ sheet music : mikejamesjazz.com/writing_music_05_arr_comp.html

Has anybody read this blog? He seems kind of grandiose and possibly a crank and I can't find anything else about him anywhere else than this blog, but it contains a lot of writings on harmony and counterpoint. I can't tell if some parts are crazy mysticism or like, musical numerology or if he's just writing coherent thoughts that are above my head.

hucbald.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-music-works-chapter-one.html

ya major is definitely more clear, but ya, thats exactly what i mean, the aeolian mode without a raised 7th by itself doesn't seem worth saving over other certain modes, and its not like you cant raise a 7th for say, the dorian mode, although the dorian mode is included in melodic minor so...

mixolydian mode i love too although with a raised seventh its the same as ionian...so maybe i just answered my own question : )

I think this is dorian yeah?

clyp.it/lkf3djvr

yeah, first mode of C major. I use it in blues over Am

ya actually now that i think of it

Ionian (major) - ok fine
Dorian - included in minor/melodic minor
Phrygian - minor second from 1->2 is too bad i guess
Lydian - i actually dont see a big problem with it, but i mean the 4th is probably the most commonly raised note in the major mode anyway (to modulate to the dominant)
Mixolydian - same as ionian if you raise the 7th
aeolian (minor, almost) - ok fine
Locrian - minor 2nd from 1->2 and 1->5 is a diminished interval so its an absolute joke mode

yup

first mode? not second? ionian isnt first? or is this some jazz terminology i dont understand, i dont really jazz

>first mode? not second? ionian isnt first? or is this some jazz terminology i dont understand, i dont really jazz

That's how I learned it. You can call Ionian first, Dorian second, doesn't matter. I did learn it in relation to Ionian though.

In the video, I'll teach it as the first mode, because that is more common in both jazz and classical

>hucbald.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-music-works-chapter-one.html
not done reading enough to give an opinion, but I like how he said other theorists have failed where he has succeeded, because he is better at math than them, and then calls a third an irrational number. Either way potentially inconsequential to the point he's trying to make.

So if we had started with dorian as the starting point of "minor" (instead of aeolian), by raising the 7th of dorian, we'd end up with both a major IV and major V, which would make the subdominant function unclear. By the same token, if we started with phrygian and raised the 7th, we would have a major V and a minor IV chord, which helps the tonality be clear, but then you don't have a good alternative subdominant chord since your II is diminished and on a flattened scale tone. Of course this is not so bad, which is why phrygian has become a big harmonic basis in a lot of other culture's music, but melodic minor is not.

ya i was just curious
names are more important anyhow

ya, interesting, i was just thinking outloud as well.
I just meant that because we raise the 6th all the time in aeolian anyway (when used as the minor mode) dorian is kind of covered

I remember the first thread was a big argument between jazz guys and classical guys over modes. This discussion is much better (not enough jazz though)

what argument is there even about modes. They're the same in both idioms except melodic minor.

well he was calling dorian mode "first", whereas id call it second, but i mean it doesnt matter

also really id just call it "dorian" :p

I started writing this way back in 2001 after a big tragedy had occured. and messed around with it on and off for a couple years. now it lies in my archives as something i still like but also loathe. i'm proud of how i maneuvered the harmony but it's cheesy af †bh senpaitachi. still has some nice moments.

clyp.it/10lidytn

not that, the one from the first thread of /comp/

better sax solo

youtube.com/watch?v=X47v0Mz3N-k

Is it worth composing if you haven't studied music since you were young?

always! it's good for you. also you're liberated by having an understanding of music but you aren't in an academic box. i was composing good stuff before i seriously studied harmony and /comp/, while i was studying i sucked, and then a year or two after i finished i got güd again. you gotta get away from it a bit to free yourself. at least i did!

Can you explain that again? I'm not sure why keeping Aeolian was singled out. Dorian and occasionally a raising seventh actually makes more sense since you wouldn't have to end up with the augmented second.

Or phyrgian. I mean, you don't really need a raised seventh when you got a minor 2.

Which I guess would lead to interesting questions like mixolidian with a flat 2 when descending (like an inversion of the harmonic minor or something)

I wrote some basic jazz chords for a piece, /comp/ how'd I do

clyp.it/mo2xszio

You want the HARMONIC minor for harmony. Also, modes kinda died out when the melodic and harmonic minor developed (I think)

oh i wasnt really explaining, just trying to figure it out
All i meant is that because the minor mode includes other modes if you consider that you can "freely" raise the 6th and 7th, alot of the other modes become superfluous

Why did they want the minor sixth specifically? Was it for a minor IV? I guess that makes sense. Just kind of thinking out loud here lol.

You can add6 to any chord

the minor sixth of the scale he means

for melody? I'm not understanding

like having a minor sixth within the scale instead of a major sixth
(as in say C minor would have an A instead of an Ab)
pretend the minor scale had a major 6 instead of a minor 6, it would make the iv chord minor, which hes saying would confuse the tonality

pretend the minor scale had a major 6 instead of a minor 6, it would make the IV chord MAJOR, which hes saying would confuse the tonality
^fixed

With dorian and a raised 6th, you do not have the flat 6th. Yeah, duh, but just like the flat 3rd defines tonic minor, the flat 6th defines subdominant minor. If your minor harmonic system was entirely based around melodic minor (or dorian raised 7th) then you would be stripping it off functional clarity.

Well, yeah, the iv chord is minor. They raised the seventh to make the V major, but it didn't work melodically so they raised the sixth

Are you writing just chords, or a chords + melody texture. If it's just chords, I'd say your voice leading could be way improved, and if it's chords + melody I think it could still be improved. If you'd let me know what you were shooting for I'd be happy to help

just chords

i assume part-writing will eventually taught on stream/by my guides once i get off my ass but its hard to teach before weve taught basic harmony so...

Just email me (anonemouse) the guides when you're done

ya i will, like i said ill due the first harmony/part writing one tommorow night

Nah, it was semi upside down

I was blazed as fuck sorry

But it's actually a really nice sounding piece if you play it out

You will like it

>people still write music for performers
>people still write music on pen and paper
>people still write music at all
just lel at this thread

well done user

>people still write music at all
exactly, its pointless anyway, so why would it matter how we do it? I like pen and paper the best

i prefer a fatty mechanical pencil. don't have to swirl as much to make dem noteheads

>people still haven't killed themselves yet
just lel at you

haha, same, 9mm

so here's how I would do something similar to what you're doing. so leaps in the soprano line of jazz chord voicings, in my opinion, should be a little scarcer than what you've done. They're good to delineate changes in form and to emphasize certain areas, especially during a solo, I've tried to show that with my example. Another important thing is whether your chordal part is defining the root or not. Some of your chords do and some do not, and in my opinion you should always define the root (if there isn't another bass part), or at least in an exercise like this. I put in examples of chordal defined roots and roots defined by a bass line. Going from you first Dmaj7 to B-7 to E-7 you also have semi crossed parts, where your bass voice jumps into a note that was played by another voice in the previous bar, which kind of breaks down the independence of the voices. Your last voicing is kind of bad for three reasons, like before you have crossed parts, the A to C# is a little close and crunchy/muddy on a piano. You also have a huge interval between your tenor and alto, which changes the texture from this 4 part harmony thing to two distinct chordal areas, which sounds bad right at the end of a section like this.

thank ypu!

forgot to reply before, its! Get back into it
clyp.it/wihf01va reminds me that i used to stuff for game soundtracks, taking a break to learn more properly though
yours is much more harmonically interesting than my old stuff

go to bed /prod/

Thanks guys.
Slightly unrelated, but the iv being the "go to" subdominant chord was something I never really understood.
I know the V being the dominant was logical because it had the leading tone but what made the iv the default? I know in jazz its usually ii that's more used

>I'm completely out of touch with the classical world
we're are all cringing

well its the default for minor because iv is diatonic to the aeolian (minor) mode, to get IV you need to raise the 6th with an accidental (by using the melodic minor scale).

for major IV is of course the default

unless i missed the question :p

I mean in general (major or minor), the chord based off the fourth degree is somehow the default subdominant chord.

oh... well subdominant literally means "the fourth scale degree", do you mean pre-dominant function chords? that would include the 2 (supertonic) and 4 (subdominant) triad.

Think of it as the 5th below. Hence subdominant.