/jazz/

Thread for all general jazz discussion.

What's your favorite subgenre of jazz?
What's your overall favorite jazz album?
Do you think race makes a difference in jazz?
Do you think people who play jazz have more valid opinions about it?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=VvU_0wX-jzE
youtube.com/watch?v=_KfVsJwTjlo
youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8x1F1AFIo
youtube.com/watch?v=Qdb5O1HI0hE
youtube.com/watch?v=WRzO9wsH-7Y
youtu.be/KhbH3g7SPxo
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

>Favorite Subgenre
Third Stream, gonna want to get into hard bop because I'm pretty entry level so far, if anyone can rec essential hard bop that'd be cool
>Favorite
Overall, so far, A Love Supreme.
>Race making a difference
I suppose so. Blacks have always been better rappers and jazz musicians, and are closely in tune with the culture and backstory to those genres since they are of the same race who created it. Overall, it's more about the individual skill of the player, not their race.
>Valid opinion
Yes. If you can play an instrument, say the violin, your opinion on a classical piece would be more valid than if you didn't since you are intimately knowledgable about one or more of the instruments being used.

these questions are fucking dumb.

and holy shit this cats answers are dumb.

how are they dumb?

fucking this
"Race" and "valid opinions" are completely meaningless terms
This thread will go on as your regular Sup Forums shit bucket
Good job, op, you moron

Here's a better one

How do I learn how to give the succ like Dizzy?

This

>What's your favorite subgenre of jazz?
Post bop
>What's your overall favorite jazz album?
Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage (it was my first love)
>Do you think race makes a difference in jazz?
No.
>Do you think people who play jazz have more valid opinions about it?
No. Since music it's subjective, anyone can give his reasons why he either like or dislike some record (and that would be valid enough, even if you disagree). If you play an instrument, you'll be likely do notice different aspects off an album and give different reviews, and enrich your experience.

if u guys actually wanted to talk about music then youd be asking about what records ur checking out. not some random shit besides the music.

You're welcome to ask that my friend since it's a thread for any general jazz discussion.

The last 5 times I tried starting a thread about jazz by asking that they all died after a couple hours with less than 20 replies.

this is a music board, if u cats gave a fuck and were hip to anything you we would be discussing shit like who played on prestige LP 7027 and the different colors in lee morgans playing versus feddie hubbards. talk about jazz you fucking cucks.

alright OP, whos playing are you into these days and how has it affected your life recently?

There is a repeating weekly thread where we do just that

I want to fuck shit outta Gerry Mulligan. I dream of that pasty creamy whiteboy ass being penetrated by me in my countless wet dreams

Post jazz musicians you want to fuck

new to jazz but this is some sexy/funky music, any recs would be cool

i know, guy who spams every jazz thread im on. i look at it and listen to it every week. i just rarely post.

I've been into Joe Henderson's playing recently. I like all of his Blue Note albums but I can't decide which one I like best because they all have some strengths and weaknesses. I don't know how it has effected my life other than just developing a fondness for very angular melodies and sax players who can play very traditionally but can also play with a lot of freedom when the situation requires it.

Not him actually. But I do wish that more people would post in those threads. If you listen to the music and read the threads what's stopping you from posting in them?

i dig, ive been spinning live in tokyo and state of the tenor a bit recently. his time feel on state of fucking grooves, i think its some of rons most creative playing too.

idk f a m, im usually in the shed and dont have time to write shit out for every track

Hey has anyone heard this album? It features Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, McCoy Tyner, and Keith Jarrett. Really nice stuff, always puts me in a good mood. I'm really more into free jazz but of course I like other types. Never really been able to get into latin jazz. When I was in my high school jazz band we always had at least a few latin jazz songs per year and they were fun but I just couldn't get into listening to them. If anyone can give me some latin jazz that they think is good I'd be open to check it out

Forgot the picture lmao

idk what record your talking about but if u like that kind of piano playing and free then holy shit, have u listened to the american quartet? bop-be?

Makes sense I guess. It would be good to get the opinions of more musicians in the threads though. You should try to find the time just to write a little bit about any tracks you either strongly like or strongly dislike.

Ethiopiques has like 30 collections by this point; if you loved no. 4 just keep going through 'em. I found this Ethio-jazz record randomly yesterday:
youtube.com/watch?v=VvU_0wX-jzE
I'd recommend Eastern Sounds by Yusuf Lateef if you're really feeling those "eastern-sounding" modes:
youtube.com/watch?v=_KfVsJwTjlo

youre asking alot from me here morty.

No I haven't. Keith Jarrett is actually the only one on that record that I wasn't really familiar with before I heard it and I never really checked him out but I'll make a note of it

ahhhh shit man, check out bya blue and bop be, made in 76 or so with dewey redman (ts) charlie haden (b), and paul motian (d). if ur in to free stuff like ornette or something and like herbie or something then this shit.

that first link was groovy as hell, thanks

>What's your favorite subgenre of jazz?
?
>What's your overall favorite jazz album?
?
>Do you think race makes a difference in jazz?
nah
>Do you think people who play jazz have more valid opinions about it?
Well it's an opinion isn't it? But like any art form, people who have spent their lives studying and practicing it are going to have more insight into the subtleties of that art.

>If anyone can give me some latin jazz that they think is good I'd be open to check it out
Well if you're more into free jazz you should check out Yosvany Terry.

youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8x1F1AFIo

youtube.com/watch?v=Qdb5O1HI0hE

youtube.com/watch?v=WRzO9wsH-7Y

bump

good shit

bump

My favorite subgenre is probably Thirdstream
Black St. and the Sinner Lady
Probably not but ever white album sounds lame
Yeah probably

sad bump

Why is jazz fusion considered shit by experienced jazz listeners? I'm trying to get into jazz and I like some jazz fusion artists a lot, but mainly jazz fusion guitarists since I myself play a guitar so it's the most interesting to me

Because it isn't cacophonic enough.

I dislike jazz purists whose enjoyment correlates with increasing lack of discernible structure, harmony or melody.

Because after Bitches Brew and 6 years the genre refuses to die dspite being absolutely played out

In case anyone cares, i recently bought and uploaded a rare Italian grooving free jazz album from the 80s:

youtu.be/KhbH3g7SPxo

wow have you guys heard about this unknown dude?? think his name was something like cole-train??

like all the other jazz sub-genres aren't played out

Fusion is undoubtedly the most samey though

And its focused on wank and shitty EQ on the guitar

I love early fusipn but shiiiiiiiiiit it gets real bad real fast

Like all the other jazz sub-genres aren't focused on wank
not even trolling

They can be, butthey also tend to have a range where there are some real slow, lax and subtle pieces not focused on MOM, JOHN MCLAUGHLIN

What have you been enjoying from 2016?

alright m8, how do you into jazz even? There's so many sub-genres idk where to start, people previouly recced me some really old jazz musicians they considered essential, can't remember the names now, and I couldn't get into it, sounded really uneventful and uninteresting

...

Mostly you just sample around and listen to anything you can

Me working at a record store and having an entire aisle dedicated to jazz, i just constantly toss on old records and make notes of labels and artists who sound promising

Stuff on ECM tends to be real muted and "intellectual" whereas shit on India Navigations and ESP Disk tends to be avant, free, and crazy fun

Oh and Django is a better guitarist than your favorite guitarist

ok will check these out
he's one of my favourites

also do you guys listen to all albums of the jazz musicians you like? It's also kind of weird coming into this genre since every artist has a really huge discog

I just find it doesn't hit me in the feels the same way my favorite jazz records do. I like swing and implied rhythms more than obvious grooves. Also the harmony seems to fall by the wayside compared to say monk or Mingus, bill Evans etc.

eventually I try to, yeah. you just have to prioritize their albums by looking at who plays on them and listen to the ones first that have other players that you like.

As a jazz musician I can say that not all jazz musicians tend to agree in a positive way on even just 1 record. It's a pretty diverse listening group when u get to the serious jazz musicians.

Usually you can see the eras of when an artist was at what you would say is their peak by telling who theyre playing with

You should give a listen to as much as possible, but with any given artist be prepared for plenty of let downs

Redpill me on free-jazz, why do people pretend to like it?

>What's your favorite subgenre of jazz?
"post-bop" I guess. That's kind of a vague label that bleeds into a few other genres but I like the sort of music that usually gets labeled as post-bop.
>What's your overall favorite jazz album?
A Love Supreme
>Do you think race makes a difference in jazz?
Yes.
I don't think it determines quality but I think the difference in approach to the music by white folks and black folks is pretty apparent when you start looking at important figures of different races. In a broader sense aswell, people like Rudresh Mahanthappa who bring in folk influence in their music usually do so because of their ethnicity and the cultural background they were raised in. That's why we end up with movements like cuban jazz or the particular style of free jazz europeans tend to make too.
>Do you think people who play jazz have more valid opinions about it?
No. Musicians are more likely to be able to explain themselves better in a conversation about music but everyone's experience is equally valid. Even if one doesn't have the facility to explain why they like or dislike something.

I hate this shit. Like I get it if u don't like it, that's cool, it's your opinion and its good that you have one. Just don't say everyone who likes it is pretending or being pretentious, dude I fucking love free jazz, I probably listen to 4 or 5 free records a day. It is one of the driving forces in my life. The lack of established harmony allows the soloist to play more melodically and creatively cause he's not worried about hitting the changes. Also, if the soloist is improvising and the rhythm section wants to change something about what they're playing to create a more beautiful moment then they can, unlike when you're playing a standard. Sure all jazz has interaction but free jazz creates a more equal voice across all the instruments playing it.

>why do people pretend to like it?
Some people pretend to like it because they think it makes them seem more cultured.

There are a lot of people who genuinely enjoy it though. People are different and just cause you loathe something doesn't mean everyone else must be pretending to like it.

to be fair- he didn't say that *EVERYONE* who likes it is pretending or being pretentious.

I think it's pretty obvious that there are people (especially people on Sup Forums) who DO pretend to like it out of some misguided idea that inaccessibility=quality

>The lack of established harmony allows the soloist to play more melodically and creatively cause he's not worried about hitting the changes. Also, if the soloist is improvising and the rhythm section wants to change something about what they're playing to create a more beautiful moment then they can, unlike when you're playing a standard.
This is just flat out inaccurate. It sounds like you need to explore more jazz that isn't "free" jazz

I like it because it's a lot more energetic and ballistic. Sometimes you get blindsided by a track and the music just blasts you with an insane amount of force

Some free jazz is really fucking groovy and has great "danceability" in that you can nod your head as theyre goijg apeshit

But when free jazz is bad, boy is it bad

Dude, I teach jazz studies at a college. I know more records now then you'll hear in ur entire life. It's a concept called harmelodics, pioneered but ornette, paul bley, Mingus, and ayler. I love straight ahead and if u wanna test my knowledge of it then shoot, I love trivia/talking about any jazz. Frankly man, I think you might be the one who needs to listen more. Have u listened to ornettes shape of jazz (pretty common so I assume yes), change of the century, or this is our music? All of them are beautiful examples of using the lack of established harmony to explore more meaningful melodic content in the solos.

>Sure all jazz has interaction but free jazz creates a more equal voice across all the instruments playing it.
Free playing can sometimes facilitate an equal dialog but that's often not the cause in free music aswell. You look at a track like Coltrane's The Father the Son and the Holy Ghost where you can barely hear Jimmy Garrison and Pharoah Sanders spends most of the track not bothering to join in with the musical dialog and interplay and is more just interested in messing around with extended techniques while Coltrane is playing this crazy solo where he's developing a 4 note theme from near nursery rhyme simplicity to this incredibly profound and spiritual sounding mantra and engaging in interplay and playing around with what the other musicians are doing. He just steals the show completely and it's a great track but it shows that just because in free music, anyone can play what they want doesn't mean they're suddenly all equals. You can still tell a good musician from a bad musician playing free jazz but a lot of bad musicians think they can get away with not being super disciplined playing free music.
In any case, I think if you really wanna see more equal interaction in jazz, I think looking at small group recordings (regardless of style) is probably a better bet than trying to gauge which types of jazz have more interplay.

This is tru, Sup Forumstants do have a tendency to pretend to dig shit just to be elitist but anyone who actually enjoys the music would never be elitist about it.

What's the worst jazz album of all time?

Haha again, trust me, I've listened to it all, no shit, any major jazz recording from 1940 or so onward. The specific example of trane is an interesting one. The lack of ability to hear jimmy is common across man of teamed recordings, trane liked to play loud with loud musicians and the bass usually gets covered up in the mix. Im sure pharoah is laying out as a personal choice he is making to develop the tune, silence can say more than sound in a lot of cases, musically or otherwise. They let trane play at the forefront cause that's where that tune needed to go at the time, in their opinion. That's the thing about free playing, you can let it go wherever u want.

le epin 420 weed chart xDDDD

remember to blaze le weed or yr a fagot XDXDXD

kind of blue

Gaining freedom in music requires more disciplin, not less. I've had the misfortune of playing free tunes I've composed with pretty bad free players and it's very frustrating to have some sax player who thinks that playing free just means being noisy. I think we're really on the same page here man. If u wanna hear bad out playing listen to sonny Rollins solo on all the things u are from sonny meets hawk. Paul bley takes a masterpiece of a solo and then Rollins doesn't know what the fuck to do and it's hysterical. (Disclaimer: I love Rollins, the bridge is a masterpiece of an album and his rhythmic creativity is astounding. This specific example is just not his best.)

Rollins is a hack

see pic related

...

Haha yeah that record fucking blows. He's one of those cats that made really amazing music but instead of dying or moving into new musical territory he just kept getting worse and worse. He may have a low batting average but he has some masterpieces. Unfair to call him a hack. Now Freddie Hubbard records where he is the band leader, that dude is a hack when he isn't a side man.

>I know more records now then you'll hear in ur entire life.
It's kinda weird how they let a 16 year old teach at a college.

>Freddie Hubbard
Another serial hack. Hubbard's discography is very disappointing to go through when you're used to him in the Messengers and as a Blue Note sideman.

On the other hand, pic related is a Rollins date with Hubbard as a sideman and it's excellent. They're fantastic musicians and players, but creative hacks.

So since we apparently have so many jazz experts in this thread who's down to post some recordings of your playing?

Ah fuck this. I try to go on jazz threads to learn about new shit to listen to and once in awhile I do but fuck this. Im 27, I work with william Parker for fucks sake.

>I try to go on jazz threads to learn about new shit to listen to and once in awhile
If you really did that you wouldn't be surprised that this one is a mess

>but anyone who actually enjoys the music would never be elitist about it.
yeah definitely nobody who likes free jazz would ever be elitist about it.

Oh wait...

Wow, love that record man. Garrison's solo on the title track is genius, moving the tonal center of the whole form to the tri tone sub, fucking brilliant. Haha Fred's the man in the messengers and on some blue note cuts aside from his own for sure, hate his leader cuts tho.

What do you guys think about this?

...

Alright cats, sense im clearly getting fucked in this argument for some reason, let's talk about some records. Who are u guys checkin out these days? What do u dig about them?

I honestly think all the creative drive and originality from that record comes from Coltrane's rhythm section rather than the two horns. I think Miles said something about he'd rather hear Thad Jones play one wrong note than Freddie Hubbard play twelve right ones.

I've been checking out this series of albums Chet Baker recorded for Prestige in 1965. Really tight quintet with George Coleman and Roy Brooks.

I am loving this Fred Hersch album. His playing reminds me of everything I like about Bill Evans but more modern and more abstract.

Does anybody recommend any of his other albums? I have Saraband but I haven't listened to it yet.

kek forgot the cover

This one with Charlie Haden and Joey Baron is quite good, as well as his other solo Vanguard album from 2005.

Yeah I can agree with that comment about the horns, it's good playing by them but not great compared to some more creative players.

Ah man, ur hip, that's a good siries of Chet's stuff. The dudes language is fuckin Sliiick. I also have a soft spot for prestige, feel like the just generally do a good job. The pianos don't sound as underwater as the do on blue note from the same period.

Yeah that's the other one I've already got in my backlog to listen to.

Yeeaahh man, herd fresch himself haha. Beautiful player, I've listened to some of his stuff but I've been meaning to dig in deeper on him. Agree with the bill Evans comment, apperently his a huge dick tho haha. Charlie füçkíñg haden. I literally can't say enough about one the most beautiful, swinging, authentic cats to ever pick up a bass. The fucking Montreal tapes, shit with paul bley and motian, don cherry and Blackwell. What a fucking player.

It's tight, expressive playing in the idiom without any of the bells and whistles that bog down a lot of 1960s jazz. Chet's tone on the flugelhorn is lovely too, shows a new side of him.

Also, is George Coleman THE underrated player? This 70s live date is the only thing I ever found with him leading. He seems excellent wherever I hear him.

RIP Charlie Haden

I don't have a ton of Fred recoomendations but maybe you'd dig some of the later paul bley stuff, have u listened to the record memoirs?

Ah, coleman is pretty maligned for his playing the the second quintet when Wayne wasn't playing, I don't personally dislike him but a tooooon of cats really can't stand him. Agreed tho, Chet's tone has that whispering quality similar to miles at times.

Im just glad haden left behind such a huge body of work for us to enjoy. The ornette stuff, American quartet, old and new dreams, liberation music orchestra, shit with bley, what a monster.

>Also, is George Coleman THE underrated player? This 70s live date is the only thing I ever found with him leading. He seems excellent wherever I hear him.
He's one of those super-sideman guys who doesn't play on much of his own but plays on some really good classic records. I've also got a live record from the 80's that he did called Live at Yoshi's. It's with Harold Mabern and Ray Drummond. Forget who's on drums.

Also he just put out a new album this year from a live Smoke recording. It's not amazing but it's a good listen.

It was deffinitely the right choice to make musically. Just saying, a lot of great free albums don't actually rely very heavily on the ensemble having an "equal voice" but you can look all the way back to the 20s and see dixieland chorus' where just about everyone is getting chances to express themselves to the best of their abilities and small group recordings like Armstrong and Heins' Weather Bird and you can see that non-free players are just as capable of playing beautiful and creative stuff and in special cases where ensembles can be seen to play off each other in a unison and equal voice.
I really don't think that sort of thing is specifically a function of how free you can get without playing nonsense and there are plenty of counter examples of pretty significant groups who don't play free and excellently exhibit the qualities you said are achieved better by a free approach.


Also: Pharoah laying out during Trane's solo wasn't what I was talking about. In the head, Pharoah's solo and the bits where the group is playing together; Pharoah's playing is very uninspired compared to Coltrane's and there's a massive gap in how much they each contribute to the track. That's often the case in a lot of Coltrane's recordings. I don't think Pharaoh is a spectacular musician in the first place and this is a clear instance where you can see a great free track where there isn't an equal voice and there's a guy playing free stuff that isn't particularly melodic or creative.
>Gaining freedom in music requires more disciplin, not less.
If you're doing it right it does. Free jazz is really fucking hard to play well.
To make the assertion that free jazz is inherently more expressive as in , you'd need to disregard the majority of free jazz which is comprised of dogsit tier noise made by people who don't know what they're doing.

Yeah Sarabande is great and you have to listen to his solo Vanguard recording like someone else said. His other ones I'd recommend are:
Whirl
Dancing in the Dark
Fred Hersch Trio plus Two (Ralph Alessi and Tony Malaby)
Free Flying is a duet with Julian Lage and it's pretty good.

>apperently his a huge dick tho haha
I took a lesson with him once and attended a masterclass he did after that. I wouldn't call him a dick but he's not really a friendly, warm guy. Just kind of impatient and very very serious.