An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music. But remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any art music, such as jazz, is acceptable
Post clyps and accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
Here's a resource I didn't find in the OP. It's a pretty complete, practical, not theoretical guide to composition. It's divided into Form, Orchestration, Counterpoint and Harmony. Really handy as a reference, and gives you a lot of macro concepts to think about in the form section. Form is very rarely written about on the internet, so this is something you all should read.
Tyler Evans
>Form is very rarely written about on the internet I am intimately familiar
Generally you write the highest voice first, then the bass, then anything in the middle you're able to distinguish.
Brandon Miller
Anyone have any tips on how to get out of a compositional rut?
I find myself just going back to my favorite compositional tropes and chord progressions. Even the concept of "same harmony, different melody" I get too bored. Does it come down to me analyzing/transcribing new/different music and trying to experiment with it?
Julian Powell
Yeah. Literally steal a different progression and see what happens.
Try writing big random clusters and deleting notes from them one by one and see what you end up with.
Cooper Morales
but how do i figure out how to play it? I'm transcribing a short guitar solo, but I can't figure out where to play the notes
Dominic Rodriguez
wait - the video described the exposition, then the exposition waas repeated, then the development - then it was over. Did Beethoven forego the recapitulation?
Elijah Sanders
That's essentially it. Listen to music you're not used to and look at what they do. Alternatively, look at music you like and seriously overanalyze it beyond sensible levels.
Jacob Powell
is composing with software frowned upon?
Charles Long
alright, I guess i'm gonna go put some JS bach preludes into roman numerals then
Matthew Cooper
You must have missed it? It's at 3:27. Developments and recapitulations can sometimes be hard to tell from each other. Here it's as clear as day, though.
That's really a question of how well you know your instrument. Transcribing something for guitar and for flute (for example) are two very different things.
Owen Murphy
Start with the first note in the guitar solo, find it on your guitar, then go note by note and trial and error it out. use your relative pitch (ability to tell intervals)
Luis Smith
oh, okay, I did miss it (I must've skipped ahead in the video accidentally)
Even just notating your music using, say, Sibelius or Finale, it's really the normal way to compose now (although I still find it weird to do myself and stick to my notebook until the piece is finished).
Ethan Garcia
thanks, I was just fishing for composing software.
This is a 24 minute piece in a minimalist style using digital sound sources. Would appreciate your ears and thoughts.
Jose Garcia
I scribble ideas around in my noteboook, but put everything together with softawre
John Wright
bump
if you see this please consider posting in this thread we are desperate to keep it living
Ayden Edwards
>24 minutes I ain't got the time, dude
It's very tranquil though. The progression of it seems nice and steady. Just from the waveforms you can clarly see how the piece will progress. From 8 - 11 really feels like a return to the beginning, and then after that it's just a big outro.
Keep in mind I didn't listen to every single bit of it.
Jose Fisher
I see. Finale and Sibelius are the two big ones, but they're rather expensive, though Sibelius has cheaper versions with fewer features.
You could always go with Musescore or even Noteflight. Or Noteworthy if anyone else knows what that is.
Sebastian Parker
>bump The thread is very much alive right now. I'd understand posting this earlier, but
Angel Gonzalez
Yeh, I figured I'd be hard pressed to find a willing set of ears.
As with most relatively long music it only makes sense listened to as a whole.
Ok, this is my first song. I barely know any music theory, but I'm slowly learning through these threads. Would appreciate you guys giving a listen.
Colton Morgan
Is there some kind of software that can tell you the note to something by humming into a microphone or some shit? I have music in my head but music theory takes too long
Gabriel Butler
If you have an iPhone, try the cleartune app. It costs money, I think. You could also very easily just go through piano keys or something until you hit the note that you're humming. There are free online pianos.
Elijah Ward
sounds like a ripoff of chasing cars
nah, but it's nice. Do you have sheet music for it? at 0:50 i think the melody gets a little out of whack. Maybe you should vary it more in the beginning. It gets some nice variation when it slows down after the drums come in. What harmony are the horns playing? Also - during the bass melody - you could improve that with more knowldege of counterpoint.
The ending melody seems real weak on the piano - make a stronger cadence.
Parker Murphy
I hope you enjoy my unedited typed response during the piece.
>8 min >out of nowhere >9 min >Bb Major >16 min >suddenly >17 min >bb minor >19 min >suddenly >19:45 >mod to relative major mad bastard >20:10 or so >A natural again m a d >still in relative major M A D A D >22 min what's happening
William Mitchell
Ha, I'll take that.
Thanks for listening.
Connor Young
I'm more of a beginning /prod/ guy with not a lot of theory experience, but I think the theory centered critique here could be very useful. clyp.it/xhpgs3c2 thoughts?
Carter Cooper
I can't help but notice how whenever there was a major change it almost certainly occurred at a minute mark.
To clarify, though, by the end of the piece I actually ended up enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would during the first eight or ten minutes.
Jack Cruz
You got nootation for that? I wanna know what I'm critiquing here
Chase Powell
Ah, sorry about that. I'll learn how to notate my stuff before whenever I post here next.
Chase Diaz
The chord progression is very pop music-y. Reminds me a lot of this: youtube.com/watch?v=hLQl3WQQoQ0 And maybe that was the point, but repeating the same 4 chords will get boring after a while. Try experimenting with the song structure, and break the pattern (I'm not sure how to explain this better, sorry.)
Also, I think the drums were off at first? I think the beat was supposed to line up with the changing chords but that didn't seem to happen.
Also, the bass line is wonky. For example, at 1:36, the phrase you wrote ended on a IV, which was a little jarring. Instead, you should resolve on a chord tone (I, III or V, which would be C, E or G).
Charles Young
Indeed, came up with a pretty rigid idea and structure for the piece and then made it in an evening.
Jayden Barnes
>spend hours notating your music >get responses like this honestly you're far better off just going to reddit
Ethan Taylor
Thanks for listening. No sheet music, I made it in FL Studio. I'm not sure what you mean by harmony. The notes that the horns play go C and E, then D and F, then E and G. Yeah, the bass parts are a little unsatisfying. I'll look up counterpoint. Thanks for your suggestions.
Jayden Thompson
How can I make my chord sequences more open?
I have a progression in E minor that goes i-iv-v-VI. It's tight homophony, and I was thinking of splitting the chords up to make it more open. Like splitting Em into two-note harmonies, E-G and G-B, and playing those seperatley. What do you think, /comp/?
Caleb Bennett
I made this in an intro music theory class clyp.it/2inhafwi The assignment was to make a short classical song in rondo form (ABA). I received a good grade, but nothing in critiques or comments. What do you think?
Sorry for the low volume
Jacob Torres
It's not a necessity, it's just nice to have.
>starting off the piece with the tonic and a chord using flat 7 and flat 2 It's like you're after my heart.
>fading out Not sure how I feel about it, though ending an ostinato figure is difficult. Not sure how well it applies to a more pop-ish piece like this, but look at how the ostinato ends here: youtube.com/watch?v=U4VQgKGbEkg
Josiah Barnes
What program do you use?
Luke Wood
FL studio thank you very much
Joshua Young
Oh, sorry, I guess I should have elaborated in complete sentences and gone in detail while I was listening intently to that person's piece and paying too much attention to it to do much else.
Wyatt Reed
Thanks for listening. Yeah, the drums are in 3/4. I thought it sounded cool. Thanks for your criticisms.
Brandon Miller
don't listen to these guys. transcribing melodies step 1. learn to sing it. You think this is stupid? It helps internalize what you're doing. It helps you to intimate know the piece before you even start figuring out what notes are. It will make everything easier. 2. Once you can sing the whole thing by memory (or at least, sing a whole section by melody) you can slow that shit down yourself, with your voice, and pick out each note on your instrument / piano if you play a windy instrument and can't sing play at the same time. 3. Once you learn all the notes you obviously have to learn how to play it in time yeah, but learn how to play it with all the inflections and nuance of the original
and yeah, you can't transcribe everything by learning to sing it and then slowing it down yourself. Some stuff is too fast. Slow it down, software like Transcribe or Anytune are great
Jackson Martin
What do you mean by open? You mean less defined, more vague sounding?
Justin Nguyen
no, less tightly confined. I have one chord per bar and simple harmonies over those. The homophony sounds so bland. I want to be able polyphony
David Morris
I guess you need voice leading? Can you post a screenshot of what the chords look like? For good voice leading you would change the chords to 4 voices (probably) and keep each voice in relatively its own range, using inversions of the chords. There are certain rules but I can't describe them fully, they're in the links somewhere. For the doubled note of the chord it's usually the root or alternately the fifth.
An easy way to get more polyphony once you get your voices in the correct range and aren't just using root-position chords, you can use suspensions and non-chord tones such as passing tones, like if a certain voice in one chord is a third apart from where it is in the next chord, you can make it step down instead of jumping the whole third....
sorry if that's vague, I'm starting from counterpoint so I haven't got to part writing in the traditional harmony style so we're approaching from the opposite direction kind of.
Anthony Gray
Pretty nice. Can you post sheet music?
>rondo form >ABA Ternary form, you mean?
The A section was alright, slightly repetitive. I'd change something in the second period, maybe the melody, maybe have one of the other instruments play a countermelody or something, I dunno. There's something oddly dissatisfying about the melody ending on the leading tone each antecedent, I dunno what it is.
I quite liked the transition from A to B. The route taken had a lot of pleasant surprises, going from G to D, but suddenly to b before returning to D. Exiting A was done nicely, with that motif we've come to expect at this point suddenly used in sequence up. I liked it. One problem was that all the disparate voices were slightly too disparate. Not really sure how to explain.
The B section was lovely. (For my purposes I'll say it started at 0:57.) The full pause was kind of odd sounding, but the way the instruments gradually came back one at a time was really nice. Actually, the B section was in itself a well done ternary form.
Honestly, the B section was too lovely. I was kind of annoyed when the A' section popped right back in like a party animal interrupting a romantic dinner or something. The way the transition from A to B was made into an ending for the piece was kind of neat, though.
The single biggest problem is that the A and B sections really don't suit each other well at all, other than being closely related keys. They're also very out of proportion in their length. The A section is way too tiny and simple while the B section is its own ternary form.
Gavin Perez
do you guys actually do pen and paper composing vs software score?
Connor Reed
I use pen and paper. Sibelius when the piece is done so I have a nice-looking score. There's a real danger in relying in a computer playback.
Gavin Garcia
Anyone thought of transcribing pop songs on the piano for some extra small cash?
Suddenly that thought occurred to me, it's simple enough and I can charge maybe $10 per piece. I could even write parts according to the player's competence level.
Evan Cruz
Thanks for the very informative OP.
Jacob Campbell
Wow - Thank you! I understand what you mean about the 2 sections not matching eachother. The assignment required the A and B sections to be contrasting moods - perhaps I kinda overdid that contrast. I'm not sure how I could make the two complement eachother well.
There's also a reason why the A section is as simple as it is (Can't remember if it was another requirement, or if I just liked that melody) You're right though, I should have added a countermelody (I think I was afraid of taking instruments away from playing chords, it's a quartet so I was limited). The repetitiveness is also the reason the A section is so short, it might have been unbearable if I kept repeating that melody more than 3 times.
Yeah, it seems like all these problems would be fixed with a better A section theme, one that is longer and less peppy.
I don't think I can get you that sheet music. I have the .mus file, but I need to buy Finale in order to open it.
Once again, thanks for replying!
Adam Lopez
I had a friend who did something similar, he transcribed pop / classic rock songs into marching band pieces and sold them to high schools and colleges. He says his transcriptions sold in the hundreds. He didn't do it full time, but it was a nice second source of income for him.
Jason Johnson
The chords are just i-iv-v-VI in E minor. One chord per bar.
Justin Davis
Piano confirmed for best instrument
Ethan Ramirez
Played this once in my high school orchestra. More beautiful than I remember.
Lucas Price
I only handwrite if I'm writing at the piano or guitar or cello. Mostly write at the computer.
Performers expect a typeset score in the day and age and handwritten is only good for capturing ideas without having to worry about bar lines. The end result is always going to be type set (unless you're doing some kind of graphic score) so handwriting is essentially a bit of a waste of time - you'll need to recreate it in finale/sibelius eventually.
Handwriting music feels really fucking good though, so always fun to do
Angel Price
>Thread is up
nice
Henry Richardson
Reposting something I posted a while back, something Suzuki-ish I wrote for beginner violinist and piano accompaniment. (No violin in this recording, but the right hand of the piano is basically the violin part.)
I changed it a little. It's hard to figure out what kind of thing you're going for, and I'm also new to this. There isn't an easy way to learn voice leading but there aren't actually that many rules so I'd say just start reading about it.
Luke Morales
Oh, one more thing, be careful of direct motion and implied parallel fifths/octaves. I assume there aren't any, or aren't many, actual parallels because you say you got a good grade, but implied ones should be avoided as well if you're writing in the classical style.
This is more of a 'keep them to a minimum' sort of thing than a 'do not have them ever' sort of thing though. You'd offend Fux, but well, so would many classical composers
Juan Stewart
(should've included this in the previous post, but) For reference on forms and the relative sizes of sections, listen to this: youtube.com/watch?v=jQLD_rPWXsE IIRC every single one of these movements is in ternary in some way, except the last one.
(Mostly I just wanted an excuse to post this piece again.)
Brody Gray
How does this make you feel, /comp/?
Hunter Hall
bump
Christian Diaz
>Similar motion all over the place >voices dont stay within their register, but all shift down an octave by the end >All the same rhythm, no independence of parts
Feelsbadman, but as long as it sounds good should be ok
Hunter Thompson
And what's that?
Jack Howard
never rely on the dynamics you put into a notation software and the playback you get back, they dont reflect what actual players sound like. fff flute in low register is always going to be very quiet, no matter how loud sibelius/finale plays it back to you. Likewise flute in high register is going to be piercing and extremely loud even at mp or mf.
You have to use your knowledge of orchestration and your own judgement when adding dynamics to a score. The playback on a notation software should only really be used for checking the non-dynamic elements of a piece, ie melody, rhythm, harmony, etc.
Jeremiah Cruz
It's mostly a proof of concept, it's not like you would go the whole circle in an actual usage of this progression.
Dylan Nelson
what kind of concept are you trying to prove? also can we have audio / clyp.it?
