previous thread: An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music. But remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any art music, such as jazz, is acceptable
Post clyps and accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
THE _NEW_ /comp/ COMPOSITION CHALLENGE #1 MODULATION. I want to open this up to more people since not many people seem to be doing it.
Compose a song that is no more than 60 seconds long. You are free to choose tempo, time signatures and other characteristics yourself, but here's the catch:
1. If you've never written a piece that modulates, now your time to start. Modulate to a different key somewhere in the middle of your piece, and then modulate back to the original key for the end. Keys that are commonly modulated to are relative minor or major and the dominant. These are good places to start. If you have modulated before, but only to closely related keys, try writing a piece that modulates to a distant key, 3 or 4 sharps/flats away.
2. If you're already comfortable with modulating _you MUST modulate within 4 bars of the last modulation__
That means that when the piece start, you must modulate to another key by the end of bar 4. You can also modulate in bar 3, 2 and 1, but when you modulate, the "counter" resets, and you have a limit of 4 new bars before the next modulation.
No more, but possibly less, than 4 bars between each modulation... OKAY?
Example: *piece starts in c minor*, bar 3: c major, bar 7: a major, bar 8: e minor etc.
Those double stops in the middle are really brutal, but the portamento was easier than expected. Going from sul pont to not sul pont and a double stop at the end felt rather clunky. The second inversion at the end I thought interesting and not necessarily bad compositionally, but P4s are the toughest intervals to get in tune on most stringed instruments including cello.
Brody Robinson
Can't bump for 2 hours
Zachary Bailey
not the composer, but you're awesome for doing that.
Matthew Howard
are you able to hear chords? I mean, can you identify a chord or chord progression without much trouble? I play music for more than five years and still can't do it. is it normal?
Ryan Parker
YouTube stream guy here
Is everyone good with the stream being on Sunday, 6 PM, US Central time?
Luke Ortiz
I can hear chords well. Anything diatonic is fairly easy for me, and anything non-diatonic or modulations, I can hear a good amount of the times. I only get thrown by stuff that is really weird. I am a jazz pianist, so learning to develop your ear is part of the learning process. If you've been playing music for more than 5 years, but haven't been trying to develop your harmonic ear through practice and exercise, it is normal for you to not have that ability.
Here's my answer to the modulation challenge Is it worth expanding?
David Collins
nice work. do you have any notation? By my ears, I feel like you're not modulating but I'm not super sure what's going on. Some comments not related to the challenge in particular: 1. was the piano necessary in your instrumentation? It seems to sit out a lot, so I feel like it's just kind of weird to include it. Piano, harp, violin and cello could definitely be interesting if you were making the most out of each instrument. 2. You melody comes to a screeching halt at 0:06. It really sounds like it wants to hit that down beat and then it doesn't, not sure if that was intentional, but I really don't like it and it makes your melody less ""melodic"" 3. Your melody that starts around 0:08 is better, I like the phrasing more. It's simple rhythmically, but I think it works better. However, I think it sits on some weird dissonances, and then just leaps off of them. It makes it sounds a little disconnected. Your use of leaps is generally weird, they happen a little too often so they lose their impact, and again make your melody less coherent. Around 0:19 to 0:21 your melody does feel all over the place 4. I don't get your accompaniment in the second section. It doesn't feel like it's strongly outlining a harmony or chord progression, so it feels a little aimless.
I think it's definitely worth revising and expanding on. Your first section I think just needs some tweaks, there is some strange dissonance and like I said I think the melody could be stronger. Your second section has a lot more I feel that needs fixing, but I like the overall idea of the melody and the accompaniment. I think if you had something to cement the constant moving quarter notes in the cello, like sustained harp chords, it would be a lot more coherent
Hunter Anderson
How deep should i go into theory? At what point does the information become unnecessary? I really want to make interesting compositions but I'm not trying to be Bach I just want to do it for the music.
Levi Gomez
learn enough until you feel like you're not writing the same thing over and over again. I'm not sure why people feel like if they learn to much it will be detrimental. I've definitely learn a bunch of musical techniques I will probably never apply to my compositions, it's not like they make me a worse composer.
Isaac Moore
Not the same guy, but how long does it take to get good at it? I mean I downloaded some ear training apps but it feels so slow.
I know I have to get my intervals right first then some harmonic stuff with 2 notes before getting into chords. What ends up happening is "this sounds happy, major third" which gets it right sometimes, but it feels like guessing at others. Maybe I have to actually identify the notes, but I can't hear more than one for the life of me. Although I can imagine 2 notes in my head but when I hear it, it blends and wtf ensues (>tfw). :(
Not only that, usually, I would guess for this sort of thing to be applicable, you would have to deal with things in songs that are not in the apps, like other instruments and maybe wierd rythms.
Any recommendations?
Liam Butler
I'm kind of hoping to make recording each others' parts something people do on /comp/. Interacting with performers and hearing your work performed is vital in learning to compose, but not really available out of universities.
To be honest though I kind of had to do it after hearing the midi portamento
Bentley Baker
So I personally never hear all the notes. I hear the function of the chords in relation to the tonic chord. let's say I hear a chord, and think "it sounds like the subdominant chord, it's minor, it's the ii chord. I hear a maj7 interval, it also has a 9th added". This is way faster than listening to individual notes. I never practiced this way, I'd say I've been playing jazz piano for like 4 years and it came to me naturally (about 4 years of classical piano experience prior to that). How I'd suggest practicing is first of all: get really confident identifying the tonic of any song or piece you're listening to. Pretty much everyone can do this, even non musicians, but it can take a little work to make sure you can do it at any point in the song. You don't even necessarily need to know what note. Just put your music on shuffle, skip half way through, and try to sing "DO" as fast as you can. Also try practicing hearing the relationship other chords have to do. Everyone has a good understanding of what V -> I sounds like. What does IV -> I sound like? ii -> I? These are how you can quickly identify what chords are playing without knowing what notes are playing. ALSO practice hearing root motion. In simple pop songs, you can figure out all the chords instantly just by hearing the intervals in the bass part, and asking yourself "does this chord sound diatonic? Yes, so because of theory I know it must be: X". Bass motion is really powerful. Sometimes I'll be lost for 3 chords, then hear V -> I. Then my brain can back pedal through the root motion, and know it was III -> VI -> II -> V -> I for example.
Nolan Jones
This is the right way to do it.
Aiden Lewis
Okay, I guess I'll focus on hearing the bass then, but what about things like inversions?
Blake King
Inversions are definitely the hardest part about hearing chords in my opinion (probably cause they are rare in jazz, so I don't have much experience with them), and I'm not going to lie, I'm not great about them. Best thing though is often if you screw up an inversion you'll instantly hear it. If you hear an E in the bass and play E minor, you will very quickly hear the m2nd or m9th you just created and go "oh, my bad, it's C first inversion". But depending on how obfuscated the voicing is, you can usually hear the quality of the chord if it's just triadic. 2nd inversion is pretty easy for me to identify though, because they sound like sus chords which I use a lot. If you don't play a chordal instrument, picking one up will also help a ton with just getting a more hands on understanding of the vocabulary
Asher Morgan
Thanks, I do own a cheap guitar which I can use for that, but the reason I asked is I'm interested in learning bass, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for someone like a piano player not play the root at the bottom if they are playing with a bass.
Camden Martin
That really made my day, week, month and a large part of my year. Thanks for recording this.
Dominic Gray
Oh for sure! I wouldn't call that an inversion in that case, just a rootless voicing. And that's when it's important to be able to hear the function of chords, and how each chord relates back to the tonic, because you will still feel that "tug" regardless of how the chord is voiced
Ethan Wilson
Do these functions sound different in different progressions? Not really strong on theory, but like if I started practicing with just ii - I, iii - I, IV - I, etc, would it be easier to say, identify a chord between other chords in a progression, or would something like a V be more difficult to figure out when its not followed by I or have a ii before it?
Christopher Nelson
Just expanding on what has been said here: bass movement is so strong it can define the function of a chord. IV - V - I is so innate that when the bass moves like that, 4-5-1, one hears "predominant, dominant, tonic". This is why ii6 is so much stronger than ii, why the Neapolitan chord is most often in first inversion, etc. Even while the chords are different the functional harmony is defined by the bass.
Leo Lewis
if you combine learning how chords relate to I with the ability to know where I is, you should "technically" be able to identify any chord (even if it isn't followed by I, you can imagine I in your head, like how if you're a beginner to intervals, you can sing all the steps up to an interval). But really, once you start to hear these better, a vi will always sound like a vi no matter what is before or after it, unless there's a modulation/tonicization/dual function going on, but that's where your other ear training tools will kick in, like root motion or listening for common tones. The easiest chord to start to feel this sensation with is the V chord. It has TI and RE in it, so you're always going to anticipate that resolution to the I chord, even if it isn't followed by the I chord. There are other things that you can also pick up. As I said, I think pretty much anyone can always identify the tonic, and with some work it's easy to always identify the dominant. If you hear another major chord, and it's no the tonic or the dominant, but doesn't feel non-diatonic, bam you've got the IV. It seems like a lot of mental gymnastics, but using theory to deduce chords starts to come naturally and you start to be able to do it really quickly. "Okay, we're at a V chord, and it kind of felt like it went to I, but it's a minor chord, but it's diatonic, so it's probably the vi chord."
Jeremiah Butler
reposting my entry from the last thread with a few minor modifications, see the marks in the sheet. I tried it today on an organ, it works, fingerings are not impossible, but it will still take me about a week to learn it.
Maybe - when I find the energy - I could make a little suite, with this one as Prelude, then a Toccata, a Sarabande, a Gigue, a Passacaglia or Folia and a Fugue (ugh). Megalomania all the way. But for now, I'll leave it at the Prelude.
Andrew Sanchez
forgot score... also, it's a bit too long and the first modulation only comes after 8 bars.
William Myers
bump
Carson Brown
Seconding this.
Gabriel Campbell
yes!
Isaiah Watson
ye
Jeremiah Gutierrez
checked
Isaac Wilson
Complete beginner here. Taking intro to music this fall if I can get financial aid.
I wrote a piece for guitar, euphonium, and cello, I can play the guitar part. How would I go about acquiring a cellist and euph player at my Uni? do I just go to the arts section and put up paper signs with my email attached?
I guess I want to form a small group. All help appreciated. Guitar is classical, will be buying a classical nylon stringed solid body Kremona this fall if I have the money or else its just an old Epiphone beginners acoustic with brass strings.
Bentley Wilson
Best way is to make friends. Ask them if they know people, way better than just putting up signs (unless it's an urgent thing).
Nathaniel Moore
clyp.it/qedli3b3 I realized that I just had some tonality issues I had to fix in my thing. I think its better now. Don't know what the fuck my ear was hearing before; have no idea how I didn't realize how out of scale and messed up some parts were. Am I going tone deaf?
Evan King
way better. Sometimes you just miss shit as you write, because you are used to how it sounds. Writing stuff down helps, if you're not doing it.
Chase Howard
>tonality issues Sounds more like you started out planning to write the exposition to a fugue, since the voice that sounds so out of whack, the second voice that comes in, comes in by doing the same starting motif as the first voice but in the dominant key.
Carter Bell
If you orchestrated this it would sound like Uematsu so much
Connor Adams
What the fuck, how do you write a piano accompaniment at a leisurely tempo? Everything I try to do for this melody is utter shit
Nathaniel Hughes
what tempo and time sig
Luis Harris
No not urgent. I'll try to make friends but it would bother me to try to be friends with people for the sake of using them. So I'll just make new connections and feel the webs for potential players.
Thank you!
Once I finish the composition I'll just export it as a .wav, thankfully enough musescore simulates what it would sound like as best as it can.
Just write in common time and use half notes as the basis for your melody, go up and down the scales and throw in some variations.
three notes as the base. Sorry if this isn't too helpful.
Xavier Hughes
what melody.
Austin Butler
I wanted to do that but I decided it wasn't worth the effort. I was bored and wanted it to see if I can whip up something quick. Also honestly I don't know If I have the balls to do a fugue man. I really have to sit down and learn how that works. I'm sure I can do it though. I just need some patience and to set down some time in a day to really learn the rules and stuff.
Thanks friend. Uematsu was one of my greatest inspirations to get into music along with guys like Koji Kondo. Aside from Japanese guys though, I think I have more influence from progressive rock (zappa, gentle giant) and genres like that. I only learned the harmonic minor scale after I listened to Yngwie Malmsteen blend that shit with metal.
obviously just a rough draft but i think i have something ok to start working on
Jaxson Evans
lol sounds like a fanfare
seems like you're just playing triads up and down the keyboard. thats definitely a reason the mood seems to flip flop from each chord change but ill leave that to someone whos better at theory to explain why exactly.
Blake Mitchell
>friends with people for the sake of using them genuinely feel this too, but it's necessary to an extent. You're only a douchebag if you're manipulative or nice ONLY for that sake. If they're good people, and you're all learning from each other, it's win win.
Christopher Taylor
Pretty nice. I could imagine it being used for when you gain a level or open a chest in a game or something.
Andrew Myers
This sound okay? It's just a simple loop nothing special, senpai.
It works. Head over to /prod/ so they can give you advice on making it have punch. With electronic music the most important thing is for it to have punch. Since people can just get a drum loop and put a sample on it and call it a song and apparently it passes for some reason
Benjamin Bailey
Sorry, I meant sort of moderato rather than adagio
I think the problem is that I inadvertently wrote the most accompaniment-dependent melody possible.
Lincoln Cook
definitely fine compositionally, works great in the style, I would say when the opening motif comes in at the end of the loop at 0:05 it's too similar to what we're about to hear, so it makes it sound weird and lessens the impact of that high point at the start of the melody. I would change some of those notes, maybe move them lower, or change the shape, so it's not exactly the same as the beginning of the melody
Jordan White
how do i know what notes to tie together when writing for piano? i usually think of what it would sound like being played on a wind instrument and then tie it according to that. does that work?
Jason Morris
that's cute
Cooper Lopez
Do you mean slur together? You tie together notes when you want a longer note, but you split it into smaller note values for easier reading.
Anthony Sullivan
>keep trying to write a euph solo part because autism >keep failing to make it sound good yet not generic >keep on realizing that making music my major as a poor person on financial aid was the biggest mistake of my life "Composition was a mistake" - Ludvig Strauss McBeetleJuice
I have to post the smug anime girl before someone else does. Now I can die peacefully.
Lucas Gonzalez
I hear romantic or baroque style. And for me a 6/8 is really rhythmic. I'll try to do something and see if you like it.
Logan Perez
yes i mean slur shit sorry about that.
Caleb Rivera
yes, think in phrases. Maybe instead of a wind instrument, you could just think of a singing voice.
Jack Harris
bump
Connor Parker
Just switched to musescroe instead of Sibelius. Fuck how is this free program already easier and more efficient to use. Also whoever made that intro score thing was based. That shit was so informative.
Blake Miller
I'm about to do this, should I turn back?
virtuisio with tendonosis is suffering
Evan Kelly
dude, your stuff is gonna sound generic at first. that's how everyone starts out
Cooper Gutierrez
here's a piece I made in 2012, for someone who lost a dear friend, had to be viola + cello, and I knew nothing about string instruments back then. I tried to go for a touch of Borodin, fwiw
I know, I know. But you have to suck before you get good right? In my experience if you do something all day you wake up the next noticeably better, though sheet music doesn't have the immediate satisfaction of playing music by hand
I have stopped smoking weed and sworn off relationships to prepare for this
Jack Jackson
Yeah I'm just kicking myself a bit, but basically its a lot of hard work. Here are the tiers of music majors from what I've seen: >the meme Normal kid with a nice safety net from mom and dad, thinks music is his/her passion, the furthest they've gone is The Beatles or something similar, or some obscure indie pop recommended to them by a Spotify Playlist Faggot >the asian not actually asian of course, its a metaphor for someone who works extremely hard to become a decent musician or composer, or producer, etc etc. basically dem japs and chinks will drive their kids to the edge, but in music majors this reflects in the somewhat quiet yet mature looking types >the norman music major, knows some of his stuff, doesn't really care about much, might get an internship in some random studio >the robot Sits in the back with his laptop emulating SNES games during class, typically unironically posts about how other people have shit taste on Sup Forums, /r9k/ and Sup Forums, might be a decent person when you get down to it or work hard but too lazy
Download musescore. Listen to what it might sound like. Also, patience. Biggest thing. Jesus I was an impatient prick. I was so impatient I refused to take classical guitar lessons and didn't learn how to read sheet music until 19 years old, I was just constantly using tab. I learned bachs first cello suite tab only, by ear, wrote it myself, for my acoustic.
Now I'm learning the proper way. So patience, hard work, dedication, and fucking around in MuseScore during the day, its really helpful and easy to use.
Elijah Edwards
not him but >am every single one of these
Jeremiah Morris
Can anyone tell me how to make this more fluid? I feel like the sustained note after those trills don't lead well into the next section. Ignore idea 2 btw. clyp.it/y0uistge
Beautiful desu. Maybe cellobro could record your parts.
Sebastian Davis
have any of you tried writing lyrics by randomizing different sentences and putting them together? I have heard it has been done before with success
Benjamin Hernandez
thanks, actually it has been recorded, but I don't have that CD with me I think.
As for your piece, I assume the long whole notes feel to static to you - maybe have one of the middle voice do a litte movement, like in bar 8, have the clarinet go
g'2 ~ g'8 f'4. | g'2 ~ g'8 aes' g' f' |
and in bar 10, maybe have the oboe start the scale on beat 3, like
g''2 e'16 f' g' a' bes' c'' d'' e''
if you go ahead and paste those notes into lilybin.com (replace the c' there), you'll get to see actual notes
Joseph Wilson
Was it hard to get your stuff played? Like by the school's orchestra. And I met a lot of those robot types lol why even go to school?
>composing with cameramouse and feet >musescore skips to next page while placing notes >10 seconds to drag back >keeps doing it STOP
>also, having to type fugging 15wpm
Camden Carter
>getting things played by my school orchestra In my DREAMS m8. My school orchestra travels the world. Not even the lesser orchestra, the Sinfonia would play one of my works unless I was a fourth year with highest marks and the blessing of the conductors/graduate professors.
Well I'm going to school because I would hate working a wagecuck job 9-5 at walmart I've done carpenters helper stuff before and I hated it. 60 hrs a week kills you lifting heavy shit and dealing with co workers.
Anyway, just use the arrow keys to navigate left and right, dont always stay in note editing mode, makes it easier to move around.
in all seriousness I'll give them some of my work when I'm a bit better. Right now I'm writing mediocre pieces for fun. Pic related. I write in the fortissimos and other fancy shit later on when I hear what it sounds like properly.
Pic related. Just random shit. The more serious work I save, all the scraps I save, even if I hate them so I can use them as reference or remind myself of how I've improved.
Dominic Thompson
Bruh, now I know what you meant by >Everything I try to do for this melody is utter shit
Precisely because the melody wasn't made upon a rhythm and it changes constantly, "bypassing the 6/8 time signature". [spoiler]Pretty exciting desu[/spoiler]
Also, let me rephrase that. It's not bypassing the 6/8 or something, it just has a lot of syncopated and off-beat notes. It's pretty hard to work on comping something that is changing constantly, but it can be done, of course.
Oliver Foster
i posted this last time but i'm still curious what my level of competency is because finding honest critique is hard.
is there anything here worth pursuing, or should i not bother.
Daniel Cruz
the beginning is minimal music in D dorian, then comes something pentatonic, then minimal music again... if you expand each part and don't switch between styles so much, it'll work.
Landon Cook
Yes, being able to improvise like that is worth a lot.
Andrew Parker
i keep shelving little intros like this telling myself i'll expand them later but i never do. i stop as soon as it stops being fun and starts to feel like work. i have a terrible work ethic for most things in general.
Connor James
ah I love dorian fantastic. the last thing reminded m of chrono trigger. make them into full songs. should be a lot of fun. you already have the framework
Tyler Jackson
fuck what am I saying lol I meant the 3rd thing reminds me of chrono trigger.
Kayden Nguyen
Ended up doing this. Thoughts?
I can read music but not well because guitar was my first instrument and I was a metalhead for a while. Went into jazz, then classical and fell in love with composing. I'm almost the same way. I can really only improv.
Your playing is amazing by the way, learn to read music and you could write some great music. I think you should take up film/game scoring.
Jaxon Kelly
>i can't read music, i just improv >that Not pursuing music further would be a crime.
>the segment starting at 3:30 Honestly the fact that that's improv kind of pisses me off, considering all the weeks of thought I put into the harmonies of pieces of similar length to produce stuff that doesn't compare
There was an instance of slightly iffy voice leading there but it was like a rough in the diamond or whatever you might call that
Lucas Martin
well, it has more rhythmic motion now. But are you sure you want to have parallel 8ths on the last half beat of the first bar, and have small 2nds between a and a flat in the 3rd bar?
Christopher Collins
here, yellow marks for parallels and dissonances, and I think that low B flat is outside the range of a bassoon (not sure)
Charles Nguyen
>But are you sure you want to have parallel 8ths on the last half beat of the first bar, and have small 2nds between a and a flat in the 3rd bar? Thanks for pointing that out. I don't see any other option for the sound I want with the parallel 8ths but the m2 needs to go. I'll try to change the parallel 8.
Owen Brown
Thanks so much! It's for the challenge, and not much point in not composing the entire thing myself. But it gives me ideas where previously I had only writer's block
Michael Scott
>parallel8
why not a d or an f for the clarinet?
Jason Moore
well shit i'll have to get started then. i honestly didn't think i was at a level acceptable to these threads so i never posted anything and just lurked. how did you all get started with learning notation?
Jordan Garcia
I learned literally everything on the internet. Pretty much just looked everything up on Wikipedia. Probably why I'm shit now. I'd recommend you follow the links in the OP and post your progress in these threads. Gotta say I envy your ear.
Jeremiah Phillips
My first piano teacher gave me some sheets of Beethoven's Piano Sonata 14 first movement and I started from there. Well, he was a shit teacher but at least gave me something for starters. I'm currently studying in an academy, but sometimes my depression gets the best of me.
Here's a polished version of the piano part, just to make it more clear. clyp.it/jxcclnmh
Kayden Flores
>how did you all get started with learning notation? Piano lessons at age 8. I dropped out of notation around age 13 when I started learning guitar. Switch to tabs until I decided to study music at university at age 24
Tyler Flores
I just finished working on what I think is a pretty cool section of a song. But I don't really know where to go from here. I've tried writing multiple different parts to follow it but nothing is really sticking. Any tips?
Daniel Mitchell
>i stop as soon as it stops being fun and starts to feel like work You'll need to work on that. Composition takes a lot of hard work. You literally have to force yourself to work at it if you want to produce anything of value. Its 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
Just think that the enjoyment will come later, when you listen back to the amazing piece you spend hours and hours creating. Then you can listen back to it any time you like, even years later. If you spent enough time on it and worked hard, you will always enjoy listening to it, and so will others.
here's a sort of minimalistic jazz-ish song i wrote and recorded for my band. would love some critique
Chase Walker
ive been trying some stuff kind of like this and i really like it, thanks for the tips! more slowcore-ish or post rock idk. think i want it to be chiller there, but i definitely could see how making it louder could work too as that has crossed my mind for sure.
Evan Wilson
Try Fm - Bb - C - Gm. Also try to fix those vocal harmonies. Otherwise that's some cool as shit. Reminds me of White-Light-era Swans
