previous thread: An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on art music and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But follow in the footsteps of the classical composers of the 20th century who experimented in electronic music. But remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any art music, such as jazz, is acceptable
Post clyps and accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
THE /comp/ COMPOSITION CHALLENGE #2 VARIATIONS July 1st - July 7th
Compose a section in a theme and variations based on the opening theme of In the Aeroplane Over The Sea. Keep your section to around the same length as the original (50 or so seconds).
Instrumentation: Violin + Piano Instrumentation is constant so that at the end, I can stitch this together into a single piece. To make this easier on me, please email me the midi when you're done [email protected] and I'll be producing it. If you can't give me midi because you only handwrite your music on egyptian parchment, email me the sheet music just incase i miss it itt
Please try to stick to starting and ending in G major (not necessarily the chord, but the key for sure)
POST theme and variations you like. post ideas for directions to take (don't feel compelled to write in any specific style). Post WIPs.
If you haven't checked out his "Art of Composition", I seriously recommend it, as it has in-depth information on the 4 core subjects of composition, namely orchestration, harmony, form and counterpoint. I don't know why it isn't in the OP, as I posted it before.
It doesn't matter if you include the current paste, but find a way to put this in there
t.current (and original) OP
Landon Hernandez
still great improv
are you ?
This is good for playing live. I certainly liked it alot
So, this isn't improvised?
James Ramirez
It's half improvised, I had the basic idea and concept on the songs, and I improvised everything from there.
Yeah that's me
I did post a few improvisations around, you can know which one is me by the poor recording quality but they usually are really poorly structured.
Parker Gray
Learn more chord progressions then. Improvisation (I'm approching from jazz/blues here) is built on the chord progression. Learn how to improvise your harmonies and plan them out. Creating a struture, like a phrase and thn a contrasting phrase, has as much to do with cadence in you harmony as it does the contrasting melodies.
Check out the fake books in
William Taylor
I like /comp/ desu
Grayson Nelson
My problem isn't with chord progressions or that kind of stuff. I tend to introduce a melodic phrase, then completely forget about it. So my improvisation is just a bunch of random melodic phrases being thrown around
Isaiah Thomas
Memorize licks then. I don't really know any resources for that. You can transcribe your favorite melodies.
So when you have a melody memorized, then you can improvise variations of it, or a contrasting melody
Juan Miller
Then it wouldn't be an improvisation would it? I know what you mean but usually what I mean by improvisation is to hit record and just try to play whatever that comes of my mind.
But I will try doing that structure thing. Maybe tomorrow.
Isaac Evans
No worries, user. Licks are not whole songs. They're what you play when you don't know what to play, or when you forgot the melody you just playe. You play one you remember, so you can expand on it
Good luck with your music, user
Easton Long
I don't know much theory and the track has plenty of rendering problems making it out of sync at times So you guys will probably hate this But I'm going to post it anyway since nobody gives me feedback in normal feedback threads clyp.it/bqv3u0ug
Basically I tried to get some inspiration from sacred music, without respecting the rules of sacred music too zealously.
Aaron Sullivan
Here's the theme. Make sure to post this along with the challenge.
Leo Edwards
Sounds pretty good m8. You write very well.
Its a bit all over the place though, the entire middle section doesn't really have much to do with the opening... is this a harp concerto or a sacred piece?
You have some great sample libraries, but the piece sounds like its hitting the limiter or compresser too hard in places. watch that you aren't pushing your VSTs too hard and they aren't redlining, it will help with your overall mix.
Nathaniel Ramirez
Sounds pretty good mate. Could be used in a video game OST.
Mason Moore
Thank you. >Its a bit all over the place though Yeah I agree. But I don't know how to fix it. What I just posted is an extract of the 15 or so minutes of music of the project. It's mostly 1 to 2 minutes segments that I'm trying to render coherent but the inspirations are so diverse that it's not an easy thing to do. I guess I could release it in smaller pieces but I feel that it wouldn't have the same impact, and that since all of it has the same pictural inspiration (the painting by Messina I just posted) I should be able to make it work. But it's probably too ambitious and weird. Here are some more extracts if you're curious
>the piece sounds like its hitting the limiter or compresser too hard in places Yeah I'll watch out for that, thanks. The thing is, there are so many samples that my computer is actually unable to play them all at the same time in session mode, so I can never hear the actual mix.
Colton Ortiz
Scored out the exposition of my latest finished fugue for you guys
I started doing the next section but sibelius does NOT like having sextuplets and normal notes on the same stave, so I may have to go for 3 staves or something.
And yes there are parallel octaves just before the final cadence on bar 28 in the outer parts.
Liam Nguyen
Now I don't want to post any of my music
Jesus fuck lmao youre amazing
Eli Butler
What on earth are you using to make the music with? most DAWs on most computers should easily be able to handle this kind of stuff without an issue.
From the sound of it ("Session mode") you're using Ableton. I'm not sure if thats the best choice for orchestral music. Unless your computer is just shit in which case it probably doesn't matter.
To fix the "its all over the place" issue, just restrict yourself to 1 or two ideas.
State 1 idea, and stick with it, build on it, use the idea in different voices and combinations with itself. Turn the idea upside down (inversion) make the notes of the idea longer (augmentation) make the notes of the idea shorter, use parts of the idea as counterpoint for the idea itself. We call this kind of careful reuse of a single idea "economy of material" and ideally you should still be able to make a very interesting piece using only 1 or 2 main ideas, and it will sound more coherent.
I'd suggest looking at the scores of sacred works on imslp.org and seeing how the masters do it. Something like Scarlatti's Stabat Mater or Bach's sacred works. They have very tight Economy of material
Ethan Thomas
>use parts of the idea as counterpoint for the idea itself Is this how someone composes a round?
Just wondering
Christian Gonzalez
canon/round writing and fugue writing are pretty specific, but that is one of the techniques they use.
This site is great and goes through the Art of fugue, highlighting some of the ways Bach reuses material. Art of Fugue is an extreme example of economy of material, the entire piece being generated from pretty much a single melody:
How do I into more dynamic harmony. I just play block chords in one hand and just a monophonic melody line in the other, and if it sounds boring I just stack more extensions on the chord like a pleb till I'm just playing a clump of notes.
This is getting pretty stale and boring, so what do? I want everything to "fit together" instead of just being distinctly harmony/melody. I just started learning about counterpoint if that is something.
Josiah Adams
>you're using Ableton Correct >your computer is just shit Also correct. Anything above 15 instances of Kontakt makes my computer suffer
>economy of material Interesting, thank you. I really should look at more scores. But wouldn't that method be limited to shorter pieces? I have a hard time imagining a piece with one of two ideas that goes beyond 5 minutes. Then again, maybe it's a case of walk before you run.
Christian Reyes
counterpoint and polyphony are your friends.
If you can write 1 great melody, and then a second great melody that fits with the first, you're well on your way to writing better music. If both melodies have distinct shapes and characters, it will be easier for the listener to distinguish between them. Some people can do this by ear, and some need counterpoint rules as a guide (and using those rules will make your music much clearer and more effective)
the "art of counterpoint" youtube channel is pretty good, unless you're already working through fux's gradus or something.
Ian Edwards
>15 instances of Kontakt what? Can't you get like 16 outs from one instance of Kontakt? If everything is stereo, 15 instances is still over 100 instruments. Are you loading a single Kontakt for each instrument?
Listen to accompaniment in some good solo piano pieces if you don't want to go the true polyphony route. Chopin is always good.
Grayson James
Well art of fugue is an hour+ long work that is generated from a single melody of about 10 seconds, so it is possible. And you can always go nuts for a section and come back to your main ideas if you want to. You already have the ability to write lots of different things, its just a matter of reeling it in a bit, at least in the opening. Once a piece gets going you can go completely nuts if you want to.
Its often a question of holding interest. you want an audience to be interested, but not overwhelmed. The other extreme is boredom, you dont want that either. Sometimes finding the balance takes a while and its not something that will magically happen overnight, just keep writing and each piece will hopefully become tighter over the months or years.
Aaron Powell
My variation is currently composed of 3 periods, all in G major, with the first period introducing the ITAOTS motifs, the second developing a new motif in counterpoint with the ITAOTS one, and the last, at a faster tempo, driving towards the end of the variation
>Can't you get like 16 outs from one instance of Kontakt I could, but then I couldn't add separate effects and stuff, or could I? I've tried regrouping instruments in the same instance of Kontakt before but it doesn't change the performance much, since it's the smples in the instruments themselves which take up the memory.
Joshua Morgan
Are those parallel fifths.
Also I like the idea and concept that you are showcasing, but since I'm too used to the I-iii-VI-V chord progression of the original tune, I'm inclined to say it sounds very conflicted.
Jack Miller
Another piano improvisation, this one is more structured in some sense, even though the playing is terrible on this one.
Damn, how do I come with with something like that? It feels so tightly composed and logical at the same time.
I wish I knew how to piano or something. I can't imagine that sort of thing to be easy on guitar. Maybe writing for multiple instruments would be a better shot.
Jace Thomas
You could, you just need to route them to separate outputs. And you're right, it wouldn't help that much considering you have a toaster. I have no idea how to do this on Ableton (ableton is an absolute mystery to me) but basically what you need to do is create instrumental groups of Kontakt. Make an instance for strings, make an instance for vocals, make an instance for whatever. Don't route these to your main out puts, route them to an aux track that goes to a separate audio track, or a separate stereo audio track. Disable all of your Kontakts except for the one, and record just that instance onto that stereo stripe. Disable it, then reactivate another one, stripe that out to a separate track. You'll have a bunch of stereo tracks you can mix together into your final mix, and all your kontakts will be disabled so your computer won't shit itself.
Kayden Martin
Dont feel too bad, that piece is the culmination of a great composers entire life's work. He was like 50 or something when he wrote it. But yes its one of the tightest pieces ever created. Bartok and Beethoven are also good examples of great economy. Beethoven 5th symphony is pretty much all generated by that opening motif, and Bartok's string quartets, particularity No. 4 are extremely tight.
Cameron Allen
>Can't you get like 16 outs from one instance of Kontakt? Personally, I've found that the boost in performance is negligable. It's not Kontakt that needs resources, it's the instruments.
Jack Jones
I realized that. I just conflate them because my process for minimizing memory is to group stuff into kontakts/other samplers and produce and stripe them independently
Grayson Reyes
Are there also visualization/explainations for those?
I can imagine halfway through composing when you don't like how something sounds it would be so much hassle if you had to change all the instances of the thing only to find out it won't work with something else, and changing everything again, etc.
Luke Sanchez
clyp.it/xufe3eg4 Thoughts on this dungeon theme? Wrote it in about 2 hours. Went for a Wind Waker/Zelda-y feel.
Angel Campbell
There is a pretty good analysis of the opening of Beethoven 5:
Its pretty clear that he's using that 1 "fate" idea to generate the entire piece, even just listening to it. Very smart.
Benjamin Gutierrez
What kind of vibe are you going for? I really don't like the melody, it sounds really goofy and I don't think it fits the tone of the rest of the piece. But you're using a clarinet and xylophone and those pizz strings, so it makes me feel like you kind of want it goofy? In which case, things like the tremolo and the chord voicings are not doing it for me.
Jaxson Jackson
Supposed to be creepy and a bit primal. Think a dungeon full of spooky skeletons or something.
Basically this was my attempt at writing a melody over quartal voicings. I'd post the sheets but there are spelling issues everywhere and I don't feel like correcting it right now.
What do you recommend I change?
Gavin Moore
okay this reminded me of something.
Analysis, do you guys prefer figured bass inspired notation for inversions, or the a, b, c, d system
Jose Williams
I think definitely the clarinet is not a great fit for that. Brass or strings would probably fit better. Post the sheets, I can't transcribe anything right now.
Zachary Parker
I don't like the stereo balance. Everything of interest is on the right side. The strings on the left are kind of annoying and should be more in the background, in my opinion. Other than that, I think it's pretty successful. I can definetily hear Zelda in it. I love Wind Waker and I think you're onto something, but yeah, try rethinking your panning.
Jaxson Peterson
What exactly is the a b c d system?
Julian Johnson
Either works for me. I kinda prefer the abc system though.
a Vc is easier for me to visualize as the 2nd inversion than a V(6-4)
Nolan Price
clyp.it/mm3j0jkd I did the ITAOTS thing except it's not piano + violin but pizz strings, so it's more of an off-contest thing. Hope you'll enjoy it anyway
Henry Fisher
I think he means just like Cm7 chord and stuff like that
Landon Barnes
Hey do you mind if i use this? Sounds really good man.
Pic related i need a download link
Mason Gutierrez
You're great. The last part sounds condensed but I guess that's from the device you recorded in.
Liam Price
/comp/ friends, if anyone would like a part on the guitar played for them, let me know!
Ayden Edwards
Here are the sheets. Please note that I spent barely any time on this so if the harmony is messed up, or really anything it's because I wrote it so quick.
Sorry pham I'll change it. I went with the Sibelius default
Juan Lee
a is 1st inversion or 5-3 b is 2nd inversion or 6-3 c is 3rd inversion or 6-4 d is 4th inversion or 4-2
It's always made more sense to me, I don't see why some theory writers feel the need to hold onto figured bass when something might have nothing to do with figured bass.
Juan Myers
Its about inversions.
A first inversion chord could be called a "b" chord. (if "a" is a root position chord), and a second inversion chord could be called a "c" chord.
>4th inversion i'm like really tired and i suck cocks please ignore me and substract one from all those numbers
Juan Jackson
ohhh >Ic, iib V7/V, V, Ic, V i'm slightly annoyed at this half-cadence >Ic, iib V7/V, V, Ic, V, I there we go
Hunter Myers
tfw wikipedia mistake >This notation works even when a note not present in a triad is the bass; for example, F/G is a way of notating a particular approach to voicing an F9 chord (G–F–A–C).
>F/G >an F9 chord >not a Gsus chord
Samuel Hernandez
you guys are all plebs
Austin Lee
How is that even an F9 without a b7 baka
Adrian Taylor
a lot of the wikipedia music theory pages suck
Joseph Walker
*add9 jazz sus chords are notated as 9s
Joseph Stewart
>i'm slightly annoyed at this half-cadence hahaha sorry about that. I didn't even notice.
Everyone knows if you want to /half-cadence/ correctly, you need to do like this:
i–v6–iv6–V
David Perez
...What kind of guitar?
Xavier Rogers
Also, your clarinet melody is very nice and convincing.
Blake Lopez
You write a round by writing several snippets of a melody that all outline the same short chord progression, or perhaps just the same chord. Pic related is Frere Jacques with all the parts merged (as they'd sound on a piano if all parts started on the same octave), it outlines I - V - I - I. The snippets should also have a clear melodic contour when strung together horizontally.
It's good for them to be written in invertible counterpoint, but not necessary. I once wrote one in, well, invertible dissonant counterpoint, and tried sticking as many tone clusters as I could in there, and it actually came out pretty well.
Nicholas Cook
>i–v6–iv6–V I quite like this half-cadence
Julian Campbell
expand! don't leave it at Hit the Road Jack / you know how I feel
> i-V6-v6-IV6-vi6-II6-V
Brandon Phillips
Why are 6 chords so much more common in classical. You never really see 9 or 13 chords but 6 chords are literally everywhere
Jason Cox
first inversion means still a fully stable chord while being able to avoid parallel 5th when the voices go into different chords.
Jason Sullivan
Hey guys, hoping to get some opinions on this piece I've made for soprano (& tape):
Vert Ravel like senpai. I quite like this piece. What exactly was structured about this?
I've always liked your fugues senpai, you spend every breathing moment doing them and that's dedication. I have comments on the score's optimization however, isn't 3 measures per system too little? I would put min 4 to make it more efficient. Your margins are also kind of big, as are your staff sizes. Just some comments on the layout, I think it could be done slightly better.
Great stuff m8, you sound prepared enough. The audience won't know if you've messed up, so you have to just fight through any and all errors, and you'll look amazing to them.
Hey /comp/ from a producers standpoint, threads like these are a gold mine.
why hasnt Sup Forums made an album? or has it?
Jaxson Allen
well the notation is not very uniform, esp. in different countries and different styles.
When going with Roman numbers, I try to stick to figured bass notation ( II6 or II5/6 in C would be f-a-d and f-a-c-d for me), but when going for chord symbols, I'd go for modern notations, as in D/F and F add 6 for f-a-d and f-a-c-d
If you actually call those numbers literal indian people answer and you can have some fun with it.
James Parker
>stick to starting and ending in the key of G Major Can't do G minor or E minor? Or D Major, for that matter?
Also, since it's going to be strung together, what is everyone else doing? Just want to know so I don't end up writing the fourth slow ballad variation or something. People are submitting their WIPs already, this would just be kind of a role call.
Personally I was considering a tranquil Faure-style thing (retreating to an easy place after my last piano accompaniment ended so miserably) in either e minor or g minor.
Alternatively a sort of medieval-sounding thing with quartal/quintal harmony (first chord would be GDA, melody might be altered to - - - D D - | D - - C A - or something)
Eli Adams
Sup Forums has made hundreds of albums, first under the moniker of "the dicklick brigade", and once that shut down from different names (he gibs me dat, christian vaporwave), et al.
however if you mean an album full of compositions, no that has not been made.
Noah Carter
classical, rock, jazz w/e I have the technology and hopefully the skill depending on the piece. I don't really compose atm even though I have went through all the courses so I feel guilty because these threads are cool and want to help out any way possible.
Hunter King
>economy of material Speaking of, I was trying to write a Filipino kundiman-style piece, since they have an interesting musical form of [minor section A][minor section B][parallel major section C], they're more closely related to European lieder/melodies/art songs than to other SE Asian stuff, and well personally I find them quite charming.
I'm having real trouble with emulating their melodies without simply copying them, though, because they have almost the exact opposite of an economy of ideas, and it seems that every A section of melody is a set of motives unrelated to each other, though this tends to be less true of the B and C sections. youtube.com/watch?v=lo2yg863owI youtube.com/watch?v=PrBQs6GF7mE
When I try to come up with a melody, even when I improvise, I tend to reuse motives and add sequences here and there without thinking. So this is seriously proving challenging for me.
Lincoln Harris
I think a g minor variation might be just fine. It's probably fine to end on whatever dominat of G, too.
I'm going for this clusterfuck of crude rhythms paired with way too much drama way too early.
Yeah basically anything that could sound good with G major before and after it is best, so all those options are great. I just didn't want everything to be in wildly different keys, but I'll clarify this when I next repost the challenge. It seems like we have quite a few slow things, I was going to make mine close to the original tempo
Benjamin Cooper
As a complete beginner to music theory (been reading tab for acoustic guitar for a year or two but can't read sheet music), should I learn classical guitar first and try writing my own pieces for that (I do want to learn it) or should I learn composition, and try to learn a little bit about each instrument?
I want to eventually do both but which do I start with, learning composition or learning classical guitar? I want to be able to apply to a music grad school.
Sebastian Adams
don't see why you can't do both. Also good luck apply to grad without a bachelors in music.
Nicholas Nelson
I'm going in this fall to Uni as a first year. Dropped out two years ago because life. Figured I'd just do what I want.
Well then I better get to work.
Robert White
Dropped out two years ago because life.
Big mistake.
Finish school and do music on the side. If you dont have a degree you will be WORKING for like 50% of your life. minimum wage is not cool man.
Isaac Gomez
bump
Daniel Gutierrez
Can I ask what's the point of lilly pond? Why would you want to notate things textually
Adam Cooper
Enjoy your undergrad. I just finished my sophomore year in music and I feel like I've found my passion.
