Pop rock rap and dance music in general is "childish"

Hear me out before you spout your tips fedora or le gentleman memes.When I listen to classical/ambient/avant-garde/jazz I can focus on them completely and reflect on what I've listened to meanwhile with rock and dance music is all about energy,and immature emotions(feeling cool(in teenager type of way) aggressiveness etc) which makes music another mindless consumerist medium.

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Do you think that music that elicits emotions is bad? That makes no sense. Music is literally best when it elicits the strongest emotions from you. That's the goal of all art, really. To dismiss all rock music as catering to shallow/immature emotions is absurd.

Ambient music in particular is for creating somber, quiet atmospheres and bring about depressive, contemplative emotions in the listener. I can name you 30 rock/pop albums that seek to elicit those same emotions and feelings.

Classical music for the most part is just really old popular music

And on this day, Sup Forums reached a level of pretentiousness that scientists previously thought was impossible

beep boop emotes r bad

nah seriously listen to what you want just don't make judgement calls on others out of a perceived intellectual superiority

also what fresh hell has ambient music being 'intellectual'

Yeah. It's cool to think about though. It's cool how music has accelerated as time has gone on, you know what I mean?

I dont think you understood what I meant.There is nothing wrong with song being aggressive but in those genres I mentioned its usually in a way thats immature in young rebel type of way to make it more clear for you.
>Do you think that music that elicits emotions is bad?
Where did I said that?I said the opposite.Its just that the genres I mentioned try to evoke basic emotions (happy sad angry etc.) and don't try to make anything more than that.
>Ambient music in particular is for creating somber
Its way more than that
>. I can name you 30 rock/pop albums that seek to elicit
they can try and replicate some feelings but they are restricted way too much.
>Classical music for the most part is just really old popular music
>old popular music
Yeah because it was pretty much the only music without counting folk.
>beep boop emotes r bad
>reading comprehension
I just said that those genres are restricted on emotions.Thats why a lot of people experiment with them but still dont have the same freedom to express themselves.
What?

>all he wants to do is troll

>better call him troll when i cant disprove him
also hope you don't mean pic related is supposed to be a exception because its a really generic album has all these basic feels that i meant already

See, where you say that I am limiting the versatility of emotions that ambient music can elicit? I agree, I did that on purpose. That's exactly what it feels like you're doing with these other genres. Sure, John Frusciante's Niandra LaDes and usually just a tshirt is a "rock" and "folk" album, but it does a hell of a lot more than just make you feel happy or sad or excited.

>immature emotions(feeling cool(in teenager type of way)
exactly what a teenager would say

that first part was a facetious lob at this thread that I've seen similar incarnations of like 5 times in the past month, but I did read the line wrong (as emotions being inherently immature rather than limited in emotional range and depth, although I don't agree with either sentiment - to say that 'rock' or 'dance' are inherently limited to being high energy is to write off a lot in both genres and I fail to see how appealing to a certain type of emotion or energy, limited or otherwise, makes a type of music inherently a 'mindless consumer medium', fuck this is a long parenthetical but it's late and I'm tired)

addendum because fuck it: I don't think being disinclined towards certain genres and their respective scopes is inherently bad but the implication that complexity is the only path to quality, intentionally made or otherwise, is writing off a lot of artists in genres that utilize skill in simplicity (and before you say anything, I know that avant-garde, classical, and jazz can also be as simple as they can be complex, but the 'mindless consumerist medium' comment at the end rings hollow, perhaps I'm missing the forest for the trees here)

>That's exactly what it feels like you're doing with these other genres
I said you limit the deepness of the emotions rather than the variety of them(but even then its a bit limited though)
>John Frusciante's Niandra LaDes
The thing is he makes rock and folk to express himself not simply using some of their elements to evoke something.Do you understand what I mean now?
Well I don't want to make my posts longer because I will get 0 zero replies so i try to tl;dr it as much as possible and make it look not so "intimidating".
>avant-garde, classical, and jazz can also be as simple as they can be complex
obviously but that doesn't mean anything since you cant have a perfect genre anyway.
>write off a lot in both genres
I said their "deepness" is pretty much nonexistent otherwise they do try to emulate some complex emotions but they simply fail.
>mindless consumer medium
because thats what it is.they usually insert themselves in it/exaggerating and so ruining anything that can be of any worth

The great OP: so smart that he ended up on Sup Forums at 4:30 in the morning, in all of his splendor!

>this poster thinks he is smarter than op somehow
>thinks all live in his timezone
well done! you made me thonk!

Some professional autists studied mainstream music's structure from the past 30 years and concluded that it had become simpler and more repetitive over time. No, I don't have a source to post because I read it from a local newspaper like a year ago, it was in the culture section. I believe it though, you don't need a study when you can fucking hear it.

reflecting on music is a vain and shallow pursuit that only yields enjoyment in the form of smugness.

it's true
music refined itself and trimmed down all the clunky superficial wankery that hindered it.

>30 years
Way more than that but yes.And even then most of the "underground" is pretty much the same its just that they think being abrasive somehow makes you different.
>shallow pursuit
how so?All the genres I listed are the shallow one who have no deepness.Just because you're adhd riddled kid doesn't mean that people should limit themselves on both expression and understanding.

While I'm not really opposing what you're trying to articulate here, there is no 'depth'. The texture is the substance, there is nothing underneath. Applies to all artforms, really. What you perceive as depth is more like 'recursive well-made-ness'.

>deepness
depth*
>Just because you're adhd riddled kid doesn't mean that people should limit themselves on both expression and understanding.
No, certainly not.
You're free to masturbate your ego in a scholarly way if you prefer it to masturbating your ego in a thug way. It's just that if you do that, you won't have the added bonus of being able to shake your ass to sick bass drops, cause there's none in classical/ambient/avant-garde/jazz.

What matters the most is intention to make something that is not bound to structures but simply to express or explore feelings.Anything else is just causation.
>masturbating your ego
How do I masturbate my ego?I bet you think people should only study applied math because it "works".

bump

THE FACT THAT

pathetic

jazz is also about energy and emotions

Things that you say were said about jazz long time ago.

Yeah to extent yes but at least you have more freedom and in general i included it just to not trigger mu even more otherwise i find it to not be able to compete with the other genres i listed.

>reflect on what I've listened to
name me an artist and provide an intricate analysis of one of their compositions or I'm calling bullshit.

Well, I agree with you a bit, but I see that you're just looking for something else in music. I love listening to jazz, I like the avant-garde stuff where I can find some new approach, but I also like records where all you can find are great melodies and instruments "talking", another approach is when I look for some kind of "atmosphere", in music. But still I like to listen to some Elliott Smith, were I can find really nice melodies and textures. Not every music must be avant-garde, some people are just good at crafting really good songs, and they do not want to make anything else.

I must tip it m'good sir, you truly deserve it.

>jazz
>about emotions
I get absolutely no emotional investment out of listening to jazz, it's all just technicality and improv which leaves no impression on me. I wish I understood why people like it so much.

>dance music is all about energy,and immature emotions

you're assuming all dance music is the same here. dance music can come in any shape a form from very emotionally driven trance music to very industrial techno and of course the likes of jungle & dnb. dance music BPM can be anywhere from 90 to 180. you're saying that 120bpm house is the same as 175bpm dnb?

it's the emotions behind the player.
at least that what's my understanding of jazz is, expressing yourself, your emotions though improvisation.
And also the thing that happens when you play with others, and after a while you play like you are one being, understanding each other and making the sound together.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=dZX6Q-Bj_xg

your post barely makes sense.if you was into that music you was already going to grow out of artists like elliot smith but whatever.you probably listened to some essential chart once and think you have any idea what youre talking about.
I don't have the time for this and this thread is not about that but since you dont even want to try it means that youre beyond saving.
>all dance music is the same here
its not.i dedicated more than enough years to explore properly a lot subgenres and movements to know way more than most people here.The thing you miss here is their expression of emotions which is limited greatly and most of them are quite predictable because of the said limitations.

>I don't have the time for this and this thread is not about that
I wanted to know if when you listen to 'art' music you actually have the critical faculties to make judgements that are more precise and rigorous than the way you treat popular music, which from you post appears to be nothing more than a superficial condemnation of immaturity and consumerism rather than popular music in itself.

If you're incapable of criticising the actual form and compositional elements of pop, rather than just the emotions it elicits from the listener, how can we expect to believe that you're capable of forming any valid opinions on art music either?

>claims rock and hip hop to be restrictive
>insteads points to classical and jazz where everything sounds the same
I've seen some pretty wew lads in my day, but this is among the wewist

>their expression of emotions which is limited greatly and most of them are quite predictable because of the said limitations.

the same for be said for any genre of music. the 'emotions' out of ambient and jazz all sound the same and are as predictable as you say. it's all about the perspective of the listener. with dance music (relatively) just beginning, new sounds & emotions are always being explored, which you can get from classical & jazz due to their age

*tips fedora*

I came here to express my opinion with arguments not to prove whatever I can analyze music.If all you can say is that you need proof of me doing so to prove it true rather than realising what I said and doing it for your enjoyment and improvement I feel bad for you.
>the same for be said for any genre of music
not really since not all of them are that restricted.
>the 'emotions' out of ambient and jazz all sound the same and are as predictable as you say
not really since they can be whatever you want them to.I guess you miss the point again which is the restriction of dance,rock etc.

you keep saying they're restricted. what do you mean by this? how can a genre of music be restricted.
>not really since they can be whatever you want them to.
exactly this. the music can be whatever you want it to be. if you're 'restricting' genres its purely because you can understand them fully

too obvious lad

>what do you mean by this? how can a genre of music be restricted.
they are restricted by both structure and the definition of the genre.
>the music can be whatever you want it to be
don't understand what you mean by that but most music genres have a specific definition sound and emotions which defines them.if you remove the meaning and structure behind them completely and so the genre is gone.

>I came here to express my opinion with arguments
Yeah and they're shitty propositions which don't lead to your conclusion that all popular music is 'childish'. You've criticised emotional immaturity and consumerism in pop music, but not pop music in itself. You've said nothing about the actual FORM of pop music and why it is childish. You haven't even said why childlike wonderment and youthful vigour are bad things to have in music, its like you want everything to sound like a stale old fart. But since you're going to do nothing but stick your head in the sand to avoid refuting my criticisms, on your head be it.

>restricted by both structure and the definition of the genre.
you're doing it again, you're assuming all dance music is the same. tonnes of different dance music genres have different structure and format. 4/4, breatbeat, 2-step and so on. just because techno & dubstep and both dance music doesn't mean they share any similarities

>restricted by structure and genre
there's like 15000 sub genres of rock, many of which stray from the typical 4/4 verse-chorus-verse structure.

Have you even read the thread?I'm already arguing with another who didn't either.I said that their structure by itself restricts them to do anything more than simple songs to be easily enjoyed by people rather than to truly express themselves.
>everything to sound like a stale old fart
never said that
>derrida
please no
You could chose way better genres but whatever.The thing I was saying is that even when they are trying to do something different they are still RESTRICTED by focusing on making music for dancing or whatever they feel like and then trying to incorporate it in THE GENRE.
They do but in the end they are still rock.This is what you don't get.Yes they might do something new in the genre but they are still staying in it instead of doing something greater.

i get what you're saying, but it's completely wrong. dance music has only recently fallen into the mainsteam and there are millions of sounds and patterns still unexplored. the only restriction is having a lack of imagination and assuming there's only certain sounds one can dance to.

take guys like infected mushroom, flume, hot since 82, etherwood

they all make completely different music, but it's still dance music. the only reason you're saying it's restrictive is because you lack any creativity to see it

sick dubs and trips, and I respect your opinion regardless of whether or not I agree with it

>dance music has only recently fallen into the mainsteam and there are millions of sounds and patterns still unexplored
Not really and dance music IS BOUND to have a really specific structure/meaning even if youre trying really hard not be(for example some really entry level artists like autechre and arca).
>the only reason you're saying it's restrictive is because you lack any creativity to see it
it is because doing "dance music" in the first place is restrictive and then you have a really skewed vision of what is supposed to be dance music.
thanks! but i prefer argument since i'm not here to "stroke my ego" as one poster earlier said.

>immature emotions [...] which makes music another mindless consumerist medium

Wait, what are you actually saying here? Because Rock and Dance do this, the entire medium of music becomes consumerist?

A lot of consumerist media is based on short term feelings of happiness and accomplishment. Going by your (quote) "I can focus on them completely and reflect on what I've listened to" statement, you derive accomplishment from your preferred genres; you get to apply what you have learned and hypothesised and derive accomplishment and happiness from that. Are you saying one consequence of consumerism and the flattering of human emotion is better than the other?

I'd almost think your two lines are not a very coherent hypothesis and you only posed this to get (you)'s!

>Because Rock and Dance do this, the entire medium of music becomes consumerist?
Do you have some kind of reading disability.I already said which genres are better.
>Are you saying one consequence of consumerism and the flattering of human emotion is better than the other?
So being a drone is better than trying to figure stuff out?Is this what youre trying to say?

dance music can be anything. if you can dance to it, it's dance music. we just class dance music as club oriented electronic music.

> dance music IS BOUND to have a really specific structure

i just showed you 3 different structures. you're just intentionally being ignorant now

>restricts them to do anything more than simple songs to be easily enjoyed by people rather than to truly express themselves
why can't pop songs be 'true' expressions? the conventional pop music structure came out of roots american music/blues, which was in turn a configuration of spiritual slave musics and american folk. These people made the best of a limited education (both intellectually and musically) and composed music enveloped in their harrowing and bleak experience of life. It was simple, sure, but it was profoundly spiritual, heartbreaking and intimately tied to the earth - it expressed what they had to say in ways which are often even more ineffable and sublime than a lot of classical music.

But blues is just one part of an enormous musical history. To claim that popular music form is 'limited' is to deny the wealth of experiences which has given rise to the expansive genre it is today. Your incapacity to trace the lineages of pop music and how its expressive content has developed over time doesn't make pop music childish, it makes you a childish listener

>So being a drone is better than trying to figure stuff out?
this is some mad fedora tier shit

OP here is the kinda person /r/iamverysmart DREAMS of

>dance music can be anything
it can't be otherwise the term would be pointless and all you do is semantics.
>i just showed you 3 different structures
you can show me even 1000 but thats what they are structures they never go really out of their way otherwise it would not be dance or whatever genre.
>and composed music enveloped in their harrowing and bleak experience of life.
that doesn't make it better.they might lived and tried sincerely to recreate what they felt but that doesn't mean its neither true or good.
>sublime than a lot of classical music.
thats quite wrong if you actually listened to classical and all its progressions.
>deny the wealth of experiences which has given rise to the expansive genre it is today
i dont.its perfectly fine to take things of said genres but most people just stay in them instead of doing something greater
>since its hard for him to refute me the ignoramus tries to insult me
how predictable :^)

>/r/iamverysmart DREAMS of
>he browses plebbit
newfags dont even try anymore.better go back there and suck some cock on that circlejerk,faggot

mainsteam sounds (edm, dubstep) don't go out of their way cause they're in it to make money. follow underground scenes instead

Please use the spacebar after punctuation, thank you.

where else am i going to find good tunes & mixes. Sup Forums is too focused on prog rock, hip-hop and kpop

Front 242 says suck our dicks

>mainsteam sounds (edm, dubstep) don't go out of their way cause they're in it to make money. follow underground scenes instead
i showed you already a few ones that try really hard to get out of the structures but fail to.
>underground scenes instead
its all the same they are not trying to escape it just mixing more things at once and think they are avant-garde when in fact they are as bad as pop and nothing more than faux avant-garde.
>he uses reddit for music
>he cant find from here or the million better sources

you havent shown be anything

reddit has better search functions and more consistent selection. mixcloud is going to shit since they got rid of the tracklist and featured artists bit, soundcloud is still good but the 'related' tracks are nonsense

>you havent shown be anything
you have zero reading comprehension then.
>has better search functions and more consistent selection
not even close.you cant find so much subgenres and artists there but whatever.
>mixcloud is going to shit since they got rid of the tracklist and featured artists bit, soundcloud is still good but the 'related' tracks are nonsense
oh you listen to pleb shit. whatever.

>argument from authority + presumtion of self-evidency

Unrefutable, surely.

show me again then cause there's no links or artists names here

>i dedicated more than enough years to explore properly a lot subgenres and movements to know way more than most people here.
>calls mixcloud and soundcloud pleb shit

tell me, how have you listened to and know more about dance music than most people here when you don't use the two biggest sites for listening to dj mixes?

>you cant find so much subgenres and artists there but whatever

lol just more proving you're talking out your ass. if you actually had any idea how to use forums you'd know there's a forum for pretty much every sub, and they're all on reddit. go to the catalog here and you'll find one, maybe two threads on electronic music alone. fuck all if you're looking for anything in particular. go to reddit, and there'll always be something to read through/listen to

>that doesn't make it better.they might lived and tried sincerely to recreate what they felt but that doesn't mean its neither true or good.
and why should that be any different for art music? why should I assume that, because a white man living a comfortable life has been heavily educated in the western classical tradition, the emotions expressed in his compositions are complex and sublime when there would've been no particular conflict in his life to give rise to those emotions? It's a far more insincere practise.

all you've done in this thread is pushed a heavily conservative agenda without giving any substantial ground as to why art music rises above the limitations which (allegedly) plague all other genres.

>thats quite wrong if you actually listened to classical and all its progressions.
I have, actually, not all its 'progressions', but then again I doubt you have either. Thing is, classical music has been around for so long that its recent iterations in contemporary classical and avant-garde music has become so academic and intellectualised, it has rejected emotion in favour of pure formal abstraction from the comfort of its ivory towers. Who needs to 'express' emotions when you can engage in unrestricted experimentation, like serialism or indeterminacy?

>most people just stay in them instead of doing something greater
because maybe that genre best expresses that which they're trying to say. Also, simply because most people fence themselves in to a particular genre or mode of expression doesn't mean all do likewise - if you haven't made the effort to look for those who are doing brilliant, emotionally complex and engaging things with popular music, that's your own fault.

m'gentleman

>argument from authority + presumtion of self-evidency
how so?you can see by yourself everything i said
>that low attention span
I said arca and autechre which are entry level dance artists who try to make less structurised music but end at the same spot because you can't really escape it.
>and why should that be any different for art music? why should I assume that, because a white man living a comfortable life has been heavily educated in the western classical tradition, the emotions expressed in his compositions are complex and sublime when there would've been no particular conflict in his life to give rise to those emotions? It's a far more insincere practise.
because logic obviously.if you have no education its more unlikely to not be able to express complex emotion(of course there are exceptions but thats what they are ONLY exceptions)
>has rejected emotion in favour of pure formal abstraction from the comfort of its ivory towers
experimentation doesn't work like that and in academic thats what youre doing you can't simply go for your feelings but you actually explore what music can give you.
>genre best expresses that which they're trying to say
not true because they NEVER try to incorporate things to improve its accuracy and most are babies of another genres so they are already using something that was meant for completely different purpose.
>that's your own fault.
i don't say that all of them are bad just that if they didn't follow this structures they were going to be doing way more amazing things but yes even i enjoy limited music(not pop though)

>how so?you can see by yourself everything i said

No I cannot, because you "assert" something without "backing up" those assertions with any argumentation.

To paraphrase, you say "This is true because I say so and it should be self evident."

Well apparently it isn't and before you go on presuming that this must be so due to your inherent superior intellect, you might want to put forth an actual argument.

dickwad

I said it because i'm tired of answering stupid questions and you didn't try to refute anything specific.I already backed up my arguments more than enough times if you actually read the thread

>I said arca and autechre which are entry level dance artists

>posts "entry level" dance
>100% not entry level dance

if you think arca is entry level dance you are a dipshit. he produces experiment/industrial electronic music. entry level dance is the generic EDM names you hear a big festivals

have you ever once thought with all the people in this thread disagreeing with you that you're actually an idiot?

...

>if you think arca is entry level dance you are a dipshit
>entry level dance is the generic EDM names you hear a big festivals
what i actually said
>entry level artists who try to make less structurised music but end at the same spot because you can't really escape it.
youre embarrassing yourself so bad at this point that it hard to read so please stop doing it.
>listens to shit music
>not cuck
chose 1

you're calling arca entry level dance music which is the dumbest thing i've ever read

>reading comprehension
D U D E
will show it to you for the last time
>entry level dance artists WHO TRY TO MAKE LESS STRUCTURISED music but end at the same spot because you can't really escape it.
if you cant get it now you got the downs

>listens to ambient
>calls other people cucks

>listens to pop/rap/rock
>not the biggest cuck
yeah i'm pretty sure your bull always listens to ambient(the moaning of your wife/gf) while you listen to shitty generic music and stroke you pathetic dick.

so you're saying arca isnt entry level dance music?

damn...

>muh superiority complex

>if you have no education its more unlikely to not be able to express complex emotion(of course there are exceptions but thats what they are ONLY exceptions)
an education in the classical tradition is not an education in quantifying/evaluating emotion. music in its most basic definition is just dividing time. You aren't taught how to invest emotionality into a piece, you're taught how to follow (or reject) rigid structural and formal guidelines in order to produce a particular effect. Whether or not that effect generates complex emotions is dependent on the composer, not the tradition or theoretical background they're working from.

>experimentation doesn't work like that
how does it work then?

>you can't simply go for your feelings but you actually explore what music can give you.
how is this any different to what I said? Earlier you were claiming that the music you enjoy displays complex emotions, and now you're saying its not about emotion but about technical exploration.

>not true because they NEVER try to incorporate things to improve its accuracy
Who are you to claim that it is inaccurate? you're holding these artists up to a eurocentric western standard which is by no means a universal, and yet you treat it like doctrine. Simply because something doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of emotional or technical proficiency doesn't make it childish, it just makes it a different mode of expression.

>most are babies of another genres so they are already using something that was meant for completely different purpose
well gee, you could say the same about art music too! what artist doesn't stand on the shoulders of giants to rise higher? are you seriously suggesting that the perpetual evolution of music inhibits expression rather than finding ever new modes to express emotion?

He doesn't know what he's saying lol he's just arguing for the sake of it at this point

OP

>get btfoed hard
>b-but its your superiority complex
I meant not only musical education but also in general.Why else do you think so much people hate/calls boring classical but love entry gangsta rap and top 40 which are revolves around really shallow and basic emotions.
>how does it work then?
by experimenting and going out of your comfort zone.To explore the possibilities.
>different mode of expression
>eurocentric western standard which is by no means a universal
that meme again.you can actually compare them and see the difference.and youre claiming that someone who does work all his live/primitive would be able to make complex emotions.there might be a exception but otherwise is simply not possible because you never either have the time neither know what and how to evoke them.
>>most are babies of another genres so they are already using something that was meant for completely different purpose
yeah but the genres i listed are completely restricted and can't really get out of them.
::ddyeah
i feel bad for you.having reading disability is really sad.

Yeah just arguing for the sake of it I'm too bored to continue this

>Yeah just arguing for the sake of it I'm too bored to continue this
whatever helps you sleep at night.

what helps me sleep at night is knowing there's people that boast about their music taste on Sup Forums saying it's better than others then complains when shown they're an idiot :^)

>when shown they're an idiot :^)
not happened.its funny to see how delusional and uppity you are when you cant even comprehend a basic sentence.

the problem isn't that i can't comprehend your sentences, the problem is nobody can :^)

>nobody can
nah its only you :(

keep telling yourself that :^)

nope

why when the proof is in front of me?

The idiocy of guitars is eternal
-Umberto Eco

nope, because arca fails

moreover, his music is shit

>"it's only you"

>OkKid.jpg