/comp/ - Composition General

/comp/ Composition Gnereal

"I am not handsome, but when women hear me play, they come crawling to my feet." - Niccolò Paganini

previous thread: An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists

This differs from /prod/ in that it is more focused on the actual writing of music, not the production, and music theory. That is not to say /prod/'s electronic music is unwelcome, by all means, post here! But post with the intent on discussing composition. And remember, this is NOT /classical/. Any music, such as jazz, is acceptable

Post clyps and accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective

THEORY

>Fux's Counterpoint
opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf

>Orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakov)
northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration

>Teoria - Music Theory General Guides/Articles
teoria.com/index.php

>Arnold Schcoenberg's "Fundementals of Music Composition"
monoskop.org/images/d/da/Schoenberg_Arnold_Fundamentals_of_Musical_Composition_no_OCR.pdf

>Jazz harmony (from the course at Berklee)
davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2006/04/berklee-jazz-harmony-1-4.html


PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS

>Basic composing
youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw


>Free Notation Software
musescore.org/


IMPROVISATION

>Fake books for jazz and blues soloing
drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzW9o5O35hQzMzA0ZmI0MWEtZGFmNi00OTQ0LWI2MjMtOWUyNzgyNmUzNzNm&usp=drive_web&ddrp=1&hl=en#
STUFF /COMP/ DOES

>the /comp/ YouTube channel
youtube.com/channel/UCqUEaKts92UIstFjrz9BfcA

>the /comp/ weekly challenge
[email protected]

Other resources (full of lessons and books): pastebin.com/k3xddxwr


REMINDER: THERE WILL BE NO STREAM TODAY. UNLESS THE user DOING THE MODAL STREAM DOES HIS TODAY

Other urls found in this thread:

clyp.it/30qaue3o
soundcloud.com/krisena/sneaking-past-the-festival-in
s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=04738075967416676769&t=0473807596741667676965025
clyp.it/4sjxuou5
monoskop.org/images/d/da/Schoenberg_Arnold_Fundamentals_of_Musical_Composition_no_OCR.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw&list=PL341D841389B2FEC7
twitlonger.com/show/n_1sothcs
clyp.it/xsp3jhb5
clyp.it/urv1x1gt
youtube.com/watch?v=EoTCS9AZRSQ
youtube.com/watch?v=YE2iyBRmA_g
youtube.com/watch?v=hgBjc5onfPk
lilybin.com/30s834/3
clyp.it/1z5ftmjv
musictheory.net/lessons
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

THE /comp/ COMPOSITION CHALLENGE #3 METERS July 8st - July 15rd

Compose a short piece (around 1 to 2 minutes) with three distinct meters in any instrumentation. Treat these time signatures as meters, rather than just throwing in a different time signature for a bar or two for phrasing purposes. Consider making your meters distinct by considering whether the time signatures you choose are duple or triple; simple, compound or complex/irregular.
BONUS CHALLENGE: Make at least one section of your piece polyrhythmic/polymetric

Post WIPs, talk about things to consider when changing meters, post pieces that have strong metric changes, post polyrhythmic pieces.


Hey, when will that theme and variations be finished?

is the challenge actually still on or? i was thinking about submitting something 2 days ago, but figured i was a bit late.


-also, i managed to compose something moderately tipsy yesterday, and i've completely given up on finishing any of my pieces, ever. Is there any hope that i will ever return to finish some of them, or am i just telling myself that to live a happy lie?

clyp.it/30qaue3o

I mostly make video game music, but a year ago, I tried my hand at something orchestral. Hope you can see past the fact that I didn't know how to program MIDI very well. Hope you enjoy I'd, and I'd love some actual feedback as well.

soundcloud.com/krisena/sneaking-past-the-festival-in

I don't have the score for this exact version, but you can look at the one provided and most will be the same.

The focus of the piece was first and foremost to practice form. Orchestration was just a secondary objective, so keep that in mind. I still appreciate orchestration comments though.

>score
s000.tinyupload.com/download.php?file_id=04738075967416676769&t=0473807596741667676965025

Dude, that's a great piece. You gotta return to this one, at least.

>is the challenge actually still on or?
I don't know, I'm not the guy that does the challenges.

bump

sweet piece really, some passages reminds me of ori and the blind forest

don't die on me comp

Modulating from F-C in 4 bars, how do I do it? Use the V/V?

Do this
F major - D minor - D major - G major - C major

F - A#m - B dim - C

This works, right?

clyp.it/4sjxuou5

How do I learn to actually compose a song?
I took piano lessons when I was younger so I know all my major and minor scales, how to make triads, 7th, 9t, 11t, 13th etc, and that's pretty much all I see in basic resources. Where can I learn to actually make phrases, melodies, and learn song structure?

Check the YouTube channel.

Arnold Schcoenberg's "Fundementals of Music Composition" is a very good, entry-level book for all composers.

monoskop.org/images/d/da/Schoenberg_Arnold_Fundamentals_of_Musical_Composition_no_OCR.pdf


I also reccomend the "Art of Composing" basic composition series

youtube.com/watch?v=hWbH1bhQZSw&list=PL341D841389B2FEC7

So basically, you learn phrases -> periods ->themes and sctions -> binary/ternary/rondo/etc. -> sonata-allegro/minuets and trios/etc. -> a fucking symphony/sonata/other large form shit

Thanks. I'll check it out. Beyond that, what would be some good things to look at?

Toby Fox answers "How do I get good at composing?"

twitlonger.com/show/n_1sothcs

Why Toby Fox? He's good, but he's no where near amazing. Up until recently he was a nobody. get someone else, like one of those big movie composers like hans zimmer or someone

You need to analyze compositions. Start with earlier compositions, as composers tend to get more complex as they get older. Bagalletes and themes and variations are good to study. Figure out how composers present and develop ideas with those forms.

Classical music is really an academic study. You'll need to go to a university to study it if you are serious about becoming a composer. Not being good at composing, but writing music for orchestras and publishing it and making money off of it.

I guess you could write film scores too

I love his music personally. If you like video game music, there's no reason not to be interested in his advice.

...Also, even if he's new, he's probably earned more money on his music than everyone on /comp/ ever will.

when did I ever say that I earned more money then him?

He's saying good advice that I agree with, no doubt. But if we're just talking game music, I'd much rather listen to an interview with Nobuo Uematsu. He's had much more influence (and money lo) and has also written much more varied music comparied to Fox. Nothing bad for listening to the words of a composer you're a fan of, but all I'm saying is that it's like studying Sakimi-chan instead of Leonardo Da Vinci or Norman Rockwell you know

That's fine. I love reading the advice of the veterans too. However, many people have been inspired by Fox's music specifically to start composing, so I think it's great that he gives advice. Maybe someone here likes him too.

all good my man. Just wanted to let you know that I'm not hating on you just cause you like Fox. Just wanted you to understand where I was coming from you know.

Nice that we came to an understanding.

I want to compose for a wind ensemble but all I can come up with is pirate music. Please be brutal.
clyp.it/xsp3jhb5

alot of the chord changes sound off dude. like 0:19 to 0:21. also, i dont think using full block chords would sound good for this type of thing

sure this is a wind ensemble though? sounds like a piano to me. maybe i'm just high.

I get the idea on piano and then orchestrate it
Also, what do you mean by "off"?

well it just doesn't work homedog. seems like it swaps into scales that are too different, chords that are just too far away from each other, (if we're gonna be talking circle of fifths or something to that nature). another thing that might be it is that even though a chord has a note that supports it, maybe the third is a minor or major while your melody is in the opposite scale. you know what i mean? look I won't go in detail, I'm no music theory major, but melodies are supposed to resolve, and when you change chords too often the mood changes too and the last chords just doesn't resolve for the ear. wait a couple more hours, there are people in these threads who are much better at explaining why stuff works and doesn't work in music then I am. I just use my ears... maybe you should try choosing a chord progression before hand and writing on top of that?

help me out homies, sounds kind of wrong to me

Okay, thanks for helping man

>clyp.it/4sjxuou5

honestly it sounds ok, just seems like something is missing from 1:02. First of all, the entrance is slightly out of rythm probably because the organ or whatever strikes 0.1ms late, I guess you can use it to your effect to make it seem slightly off putting. Secondly also at 1:06, it sounds like a track where you take out the vocals. if you want it to be a break part, maybe just add something silly small like just a little high pitched sound forming a rythm or just making it's mark. That's what i think at least. The rest sounds fine to me honestly.


isn't this challenge thing closed as of 2 days ago?

Are there any resources for musical form independent from standard functional harmony? I know all about periods and sentences but it's really hard to apply my knowledge of such things when the fundamental V-I sounds out of place in my piece.

You know, two threads ago this challenge idea was posted:

>so i'm almost done with compiling the theme and variations. For next week's challenge a couple of people expressed the idea of setting a text in an art song style, but I'm going to push that idea off until later because I think I might be able to get a singer to record them in about 3 weeks, so it'd be cooler to wait until then. For next week, I was thinking of taking another idea that an user mentioned. He said he was having a lot of fun improvising around restricted pitch classes, so the challenge could be something like :
>"Compose a short piece with 1 to 3 sections in any instrumentation. Each section is limited to only using 4 specific pitch classes off your choosing. i.e. Section A only contains the notes D F# G and B, Section B contains only E F# C and C#
>Is this too restrictive? Perhaps it should be 5 or fewer pitch classes instead of specifying 4 (I want to guide people away from easy pentatonic writing, but also don't want this to be too limiting)

Please /comp/ gib advice
clyp.it/urv1x1gt

>composers tend to get more complex as they get older
do composers really do this?
why?

probably because they don't like to write something they've written before, and to reinvent themselves they just gradually expand on their ideas over some decades

I mean, it's just a natural tendency of artists to be more limited and academic in their early stuff, not yet sure what works and what doesn't, and more experimental as they get older, as they've gotten comfortable with the medium.

I mean, it's kind of a cliche example, but here's Beethoven's 1st piano sonata: youtube.com/watch?v=EoTCS9AZRSQ
and his last piano sonata:
youtube.com/watch?v=YE2iyBRmA_g

Stravinsky's last piece was a simple song, and Chopin's last opus was a bunch of low-key sketches

not yet, /comp/ keep fighting

>Stravinsky's last piece was a simple song
It's not that they get more complex in instrumentation, it's that they tend to get less and less orthodox in general.
I mean, this is not what you'd call simple: youtube.com/watch?v=hgBjc5onfPk

Each composer is unique. Some get more complex, some get less complex and more focused on beauty. Some stay the same the whole time.

bump

F2 /Eb Bb2 /D |
Eb2 /Db Ab2 /C |
Db2 /Cb G2 /B |
C1

Descending 5th and a Neapolitan

lilybin.com/30s834/3

Alright. I'm not that into classical outside the basic stuff I studied when I was younger, but I'll try. I'm more into jazz, electronic, and hip-hop. I mostly want to learn about music theory so I don't limit myself, I can learn to make stuff, and I can make complex compositions that I'm proud of if I want to.

Thank you anons!

What'd you use to make this user?

Cinematic strings with kontakt on FL studio
>inb4 fl

I'm waiting for the next challenge and will be monitoring this thread!

Also, if anyone is currently writing something for voice, I can give you some tips and suggestions, since I'm studying classical singing. I have experience with new music too, so don't be afraid if it's more out there.

...

what's the term for the first 3 notes of a scale?
trichord?

clyp.it/1z5ftmjv

for the love of god /comp/ please help. i'm really not moving in the right direction if i want to compose romantic pieces, am i? anyway i made my daily 1 minute piece and some places it's a bit lazy with the bass notes, maybe i'll try and shape it up at another time

oh.. and i forgot to mention it definitely sounds like a 4/4 rythm, but i started in 5/4 and it's too late to move things around because it just crashes.
on the plus side, it looks ok on paper as 5/4

this sounds pretty damn rad to be honest

severely misspelled, though.

What do you hate most mu? Any music piece or genre or musician you'd never want to get close to?

Did you mean to post a new thread?

Personally I just can't get into rock, it just seems too shallow for me. Mostly it's just how important lyrics seem to be to most fans' enjoyment of it that puts me off. Also the homogeneity of the percussion.

nope, meant to say /comp/ instead of Sup Forums.

I just wanna find out the most hated music related item of /comp/

as for me, it's rap music.

my mispelled you mean it should've been written in 4/4, right?

by mispelled you mean it should've been written in 4/4, right?

Well, that too. You might fix that by relabeling the time signature as 40/32, though that's not exactly easy on the eyes either.

But what I mean is, look at the melody implied by the strong beats in the right hand:
>E Eb D Bb G G# Bb
And the bass:
>G# G# G# Bb Gnat Bnat F# Bb
Clearly we're dealing with some atonal shit right here. But no, it's very tonal, the tonal center is G#/Ab. Basically notes need to be renamed to fit their position in the scale. So for example, with the strong beats of the melody:
>E Eb D Bb G G# Bb
The tonal center is G#/Ab, so these can be notated as scale degrees like so:
>b6 5 #4 2 7 1 2
So then you could write them as either
>(in G# minor:) E D# Cx A# Fx G# A#
or
>(in Ab minor:) Fb Eb Dnat Bb Gnat Ab Bb

meant for

so it's always recommended to write the key you consider the piece to be in, and not the key which causes the least sharps or flats?

it definitely makes sense, i'm not sure why i thought it might have been the other way around.


also... time signature 40/32? how did you come up with that?

vocaroo.com/i/s0LDmTdyKMHF
Rate my waltz

>tfw you feel like your concerto's slow movement is coming together
After months of intermittent work, I have over 13 minutes in sketches. That should be enough. Just need to organize it.

Hi /comp/. New to the general here
I wanted to know If you knew about composition software that goes in depth, allows to change signatures and has an intuitive interface for android.
I used ensemble studio pro for my phone but it glitches the audio tests, and once you establish the time signature you can't change it. And I don't think you can do mixed signatures (aka 5/4 or 11/8)
It's embarassing that windows phone has better software about that than android.
Agh well, If you know an alternative it would be nice.

>so it's always recommended to write the key you consider the piece to be in, and not the key which causes the least sharps or flats?
Well, in this case, considering how distant both G# minor and Ab minor are from A minor, G# minor having five sharps and Ab minor having seven flats, it doesn't really matter which you use (G# minor has fewer accidentals, true, but considering it's minor you'll be using Fx a lot, so it's just as hard on the eyes as seven flats are).

Mainly, the most important thing is sticking to a single spelling and not flipping between G# minor and Ab minor. G# minor is difficult to play and Ab minor is difficult to play, but the way your piece is now, with, for example, Eb and G# intermingling freely, it's impossible to play. The dominant and tonic are a fourth apart, not a third. But E and G are a third apart, and Eb and G# are an augmented third apart, so it's hard to tell mid-performance that Eb is the dominant and G# is the tonic.

>also... time signature 40/32? how did you come up with that?
Well, the problem with 5/4 is that it doesn't reflect that the piece is in 8. Each measure contains 5 quarter notes (5/4), so 10 eighth notes (10/8), or 20 sixteenths (20/16), or 40 thirty-seconds (40/32).

If you have a piece in 15/8, the piece is in 5, with every beat being three eighth notes. In other words,
>5*(3/8) = 15/8

Here, the piece is in 8, and every beat is equal to five thirty-second notes, or in other words
>8*(5/32) = 40/32

The reason a piece in 6/8 is in 6/8 and not 3/4 is because you can't divide 3/4 into two subdivisions. Similarly the reason this would be in 40/32 and not 5/4 is that you can't divide 5/4 into eight subdivisions.

>composing on a phone
why.jpg

I got my problems.

man, there's not even any composition software for desktops with intuitive interface

i think i understood about 60% of that, i'll try reading it again in the morning though, thanks again user

In the preface to his Two- and Three-Part Inventions, Bach said they were written so one could develop technique and style on the keyboard, but also a foretaste of composition. Would /comp/ recommend their study? If so, are there other works like this I should look into?

.

...

Well Tempered Clavier in particular is excellent for developing technique. Bartok Microkosmos starts easy and progresses to be more and more difficult iirc

I'm interested in composition, though, do you think those works are conducive to a deeper understanding of it?

Studying Bach's Inventions will definetly help you with composing

Thanks!

I'm an electronic musician focusing on Techno/prog house. What sort of composition methods/activities should I try to make my tracks more interesting. This has been my biggest hurdle and I would appreciate any guidance on where to go from here.

Read the references in the OP.

Jazz harmony. House uses huge chords with thick pads. Jazz harmony is good for that.

Has anyone read The Complete Musician? What's your opinion on it?

I thought I knew enough of theory, but the damn book is shitting all over me.

What kind of things will a 'music theory I' type course teach me?

how to understand music theory II type courses

I never quite understood why/how this works
Anyone could explain?

thanks for the help!

The basics of the basics of traditional harmony. The intervals, each of the diatonic chords, rules of four part harmony, maybe a bit about counterpoint, standard melodic rules and secondary dominants at the end.
It depends, though. Due to shenanigans I took such a class twice, and the second class started with Fuxian counterpoint and then went to diatonic harmony.

Also, if there's no fundamentals class also available to take, you might have to sit through in-depth explanations of how to read music and stuff like that.

I think he's of interest to /comp/ because of the way he smartly handles leitmotifs, combining, reusing and whatnot
Undertale as a whole might have 6 or 7 melodies/themes and you can barely notice

ok faggots

what is the best way to learn theory

trial and error with minimal or without reliance on prior theoretical knowledge

advanced second-grade dark hermeneutics
first-grade is good too, but be careful with the flames

starting at the age of 5?

Well, what said, but keep in mind while learning it that ultimately it's all just suggestions. It's best to approach it as though they're strict rules when you're practicing your knowledge, though.

If you seriously want to learn as much as possible: university/college

If you just want to learn some basics
READ THE FUCKING OP
nah jk:
musictheory.net/lessons

not that user, but i often see the university suggestion

couldn't it be replaced with books, exercises and interaction with musicians?

>university/college
i have been considering this because i can do it for free but i would have to take other classes i dont want to

But what if I know this stuff already

How what works? Modulation? I'll explain the first post:
F major, the tonic, to D minor, the relative minor. They share two notes, F and A. Then a shift to the parallel major, D major. D major acts as the dominant to G major, which acts as the dominant to C major, throw in a cadential six four to reinforce the new key, and you have modulated.

>couldn't it be replaced with books, exercises and interaction with musicians?
You're replacing it with what it already is. There is no better way to have a focused 3 or 4 years with books, exercises and interaction with musicians.

The reality is its hard to get interaction with classical musicians unless you already know a lot of them. A good university/college music degree will have you working with performers from year 1, not to mention meeting and forming working relationships with them.

Being in a music degree really puts you in a focused place to essentially learn the craft of composing. Its not really recommended unless you seriously want to become a composer or musicologist or music historian, or professional performer. If you just want to learn a bit of theory, just read a lot of theory books, and check out online theory resources.

A music degree is great imo because you meet a lot of interesting people, you have really inspirational tutors and mentors, you are forced to write in new mediums, and exposed to new styles and ways of writing/playing that you probably wouldn't find on your own. It gives you a well rounded background of music history, composition, theory, orchestration, end the experience of working with real players. Then on top of that add on any of the other activities you do outside uni/college. When I was there we organized a lot of chamber music concerts in order to have new pieces played and recorded. They were very successful and really cool to be able to have a new piece played in a public concert 2 times a year. had some great feedback and there are some recordings around too. Also a great chance to experiment and find your own voice.

Uni/College also makes you aware of the various opportunities around, things like composition workshops, competitions, calls for scores, lectures by visiting composers or musicians, etc. Things you wouldn't really know about unless you were in the "loop"

Daily reminder that if you aren't successful by the age of 20 you never will be.

not true in the slightest user. many composers were late bloomers. Brahms didn't write his first symphony until he was 50, Rautavaara didn't start until he way 60 or something. Starting young is only important if you want to become some kind of freakishly good professional performer.

Brahms composed tons of stuff early on, he just destroyed it all. If you don't start composing/playing by the age of 5, at the absolute latest, you will never make it.

Disagree strongly

this is just retarded