So I've come up with a more or less general plan for this motivic development graphic notation I've been working on. In the bottom there'll be a key (like a map) in which the motives are notated traditionally and labeled, and some of their unique manipulable aspects are described (such as "tonal", "quartal", "step - jump", "up - up", "P5 in range", etc.), basically suggestions. The 'staves' will just be large rectangles, the horizontal axis will represent time (obviously), the vertical axis might indicate pitch though I'm not sure. Within the plot of the staff motives are represented as geometric shapes, simpler polygons being similar to the original (regular polygons being exact repetition), distorted convex polygons being more significantly developed, concave polygons obviously based on but very different from original, self-intersecting are unrecognizable from the original.
I was wondering, does anyone have thoughts on what I could represent with the vertical aspect instead of pitch? It kind of feels as though placing motifs onto a clear spectrum of pitches, even if it isn't labeled, is too intrusive on the improviser's ground. I mean just set it so three instances of motif A are arranged in a triangle, and you've just clearly composed a new motif. But I dunno what would be represented instead. Dynamic? eh not so sure about that.
Justin Martin
Graphic notations are just an edgy meme for people to look at in awe. Please look away from this meme and focus on actual composition.
Cooper Moore
fuck off retard
Christian Allen
DUDE Epic.... simply epic....
Noah Cruz
>smokes weed once
Brody Price
Who /fugue/ here? I just finished writing another fugue last week. In this 1 piano piece I've implemented the theme over 100 times (the most I've ever done before was 38), and it runs for a little over 8 minutes.
I will upload the score once I get a scanner
Jaxon Richardson
Did you read what I wrote? Try reading it once more.
I'm not handing someone a set of artsy squiggles arranged in a nonsensical shape for maximum artistic effect and demanding they play it well. It's a set of symbols from left to right in chronological order, that convey a particular instruction for the player, with plenty of explanation beforehand. If that's an edgy meme then let's just scrap the five-line staff and focus on "actual composition".
Ethan Cook
Why don't you just use normal staffs and then make a key for stuff that can't be expressed with normal notation instead of re-inventing the wheel and starting from square 1
Gabriel Ortiz
I do. I use normal notation in the key to demonstrate the motives that the improviser will improvise with. Then for things that can't be expressed in normal notation, such as an outline of where I want the improviser to go, how I want the improviser to get there, what form the improvisation should outline, how controlled or free the improvisation should be at a particular moment etc., that's all expressed outside of normal notation since normal notation is very clear and specific about pitch and rhythm.
Eli Edwards
>I do. >The 'staves' will just be large rectangles, the horizontal axis will represent time (obviously), the vertical axis might indicate pitch though I'm not sure. lol I don't know what the fuck you're trying to say anymore. That's contradictory. All I'm saying is don't use graphic scores to represent things that can be represented normally. It's just an edgy movement and usually just serves as a gimmick. They can be used efficiently sometimes
Ayden Collins
>That's contradictory. >All I'm saying is don't use graphic scores to represent things that can be represented normally Okay. So. In the bottom left corner, there will be a five line staff. In it, I will traditionally notate the motifs that the improviser is to use in his improvisation. The main 'staves' are large and mostly unlabeled empty rectangles because I'm not specifying the exact pitches or note durations being played by the improviser, all I'm specifying are the motifs used to start the piece, which motifs are used at what times, how controlled or freely the improviser can develop the motifs, and how similar to or varied from the original motif any given instance of a motif is. How it's being developed is entirely up to the improviser.
I'm not using graphic scores to represent things that can be represented normally. None of it can be represented normally, except for the original motif, which is why I notate it normally. Look, I agree that 9 times out of 10 these graphic scores just look like artistic wankery, which is why I avoid doing it in the only place I can.
Christopher Campbell
fugues are fun. Pretty much all I write these days. Last one I finished had a latin feel - lots of fun to write, and the ending I'm most proud of of all my fugues!
Lucas Flores
Hey guys how do I learn time signatures
Cameron Russell
read a book
Kayden Jones
Jesus, seems a bit excessive. As long as it works, though.
Jeremiah Torres
Just smoked a bowl and looked at this score Music for this feel lads?
Oliver James
just count it's really easy 4/4: 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 3/4: 1-2-3-1-2-3 now do the same thing for all the other time signatures. If it has an 8 at the bottom (6/8) you count eighth notes instead of quarter notes.
Jace Jackson
Every time I go to sleep, this thread dies. Bump
Jace Walker
you guys should include popular music theory as well just to get more interest
Samuel Turner
We do talk about jazz harmony, if that counts as popular music.
Is there anything particular about pop music theory, that's different?
Grayson Parker
Hey /comp/, about a couple of months back I got into counterpoint, but never really learned the strict rules, just the very basics, should I go deeper or not? vocaroo.com/i/s0tGNAlfNHZq Pic related is something I made recently
Tyler Bailey
definitely work on it. So many unprepared dissonances, parallels and bad voice leading.
Luke Flores
Alright, any books besides the essential Gradus Ad Parnassum that I should read?
Evan Gutierrez
Dunno, apart from theory, you just need to examine your writings closely for parallel 5th/8th (or use sibelius review plug in for that), and hidden parallel 8th, as well as augmented / diminished moves and unreasonably far jumps in your melody voices.
Imo it's also helpful to have people look at your stuff and tell you what's wrong and why. I can annotate your pic later when I get home.
Michael Smith
I doubt the thread will stilll be alive at that point, but sure, I'll try to annotate it as well
Lincoln Sanders
I'll be bumping from my phone.
I assume the voila melody came first and you tried to make a counterpoint melody in the bass next?
Lincoln Cox
>I assume the viola melody came first and you tried to make a counterpoint melody in the bass next? Yep
>sounds like a slap bass Bad enough >even though he isn't slapping it. Oh my.
Lincoln Taylor
Mobile bump
It's surprisingly hard to find books about chord scale jazz theory in my native language. Everything harmony related is about Riemann function theory.
Ryan Wood
Red: Parallels. Either open parallels or hidden parallels in the outer voices (which is always the case with 2 voices total). Hidden 8th are tolerable, when the upper voice moves stepwise, but having just two voices, you should avoid doubling notes.
yellow: voice leading. unprepared dissonances, augmented steps. *1 enharmonic ambiguous use of a diminished 4th. Sounds like A major when instead of the weird quartal chord that's written. *2 no mistakes per se, but also very uninteresting voice leading. At least do a passing note on beat 4 in the lower note. *3 dissonance (triton) on an accented beat that doesn't resolve correctly (upper voice up a semi tone, lower voice down a semi tone) (forgot to mark the next thing, both voices crossing for no reason, also a unreasonably big jump in the upper voice) *4 weird way to end the passage. Upper voice should end with a discant or tenor clausula (II. degree to I. degree or VII - I. Not speaking chords, just single notes of the scale).
I don't know how you approached it, if I were to add a second obligate voice to an existing one, I'd always first figure out chord progressions for the first voice, and then construct a second voice that fits the chords while obeying the voicing rules.
Assuming it's not minimalism, there's too little development in the first 3 mins. Either do more than 2 chords or use more paint registers or change up the synth effects more during that time.
Brandon Hall
Whoa, thanks man, I'm going to try to correct it now, although I have to ask, what's an unprepared dissonance, is it the same as an unresolved dissonance?
Joseph Anderson
It's kinda the reverse. Strictly speaking, if there's a dissonance, it has to be created by tying over from a previous consonant position (suspension) or happen briefly as a part of a melodic line (passing note)
Suspension: VoiceA: c~c b c VoiceB: e d f e
The dissonant 7th chord comes by tying the c from a previous c.
Passing note: VoiceA e d c b c VoiceB c2 g2 c
The dissonant 9th happens as the upper voice runs in a line.
Caleb Torres
Alright, thanks again, now I don't even think I can fix it, I need to read up on a lot of theory or so it seems.
Daniel Stewart
Well, why don't you start by doing a simple tone vs tone counterpoint, no dissonance at all. And then see where you can add suspensions and passing notes and figurations. That's the way to do it anyways.
People who are proficient at counterpoint are simply able to skip some of these steps here and there.
David King
That sounds very reasonable, thanks.
Jackson Gonzalez
What is an A minor in the key of Fm?
Wyatt Smith
modal interchange from F major, chromatic mediant, constant structure, depends on context
Isaiah Moore
Maybe the piece is in G# major and Am is just an N, if I add a C to the bass?
James Lopez
if it's being used a subdominant substitute, yeah. If it's not functioning that way then it's probably not an N, and it's just modal interchange or chromatic mediant.
Also, >G# major
Josiah Bailey
>passive-aggressively posting instead of replying Not unexpected.
Matthew Thompson
Hello /comp/osers,
Tell me why this is shit so I can stop focusing on trash. Also, how do you deal with stuff that you enjoy playing/composing, but at the same time know it's "cheap"? Like, I can't stop listening to this and I don't even know why.
It's like that sometimes I just have to let it out.
Adam Sanders
theory is useless desu
Adam Campbell
its useful for giving your creativity more options
Elijah Moore
bread dead
Eli Jackson
The two trumpets mirror each other quite closely
oom pah ooom pah oom pah
and combined with the short stab duration makes it comical, repetitive and jittery
The drums are pure Ringo Star Classical Gas over an odd eastern theme
It's still not even that bad,
.
Brandon Jones
Yes, but it also depends on what you want to do with counter point. On a super basic level each dissonant interval should be followed by a consonant one and the dissonant intervals should come on metrically weak beats.
Question: If one were to compose a piece that used counterpoint, but was rhythmically in a style that emphasized 2 and 4 like back beat or swing, would 2 and 4 now be treated like how 1 and 3 are treated? 1 and 3 are the strong beats in classical music, so would it make sense to change around how you treat dissonance since the strong beats have changed to 2 +4?
Sebastian Green
>o do with counter point. On a super bas I'm glad I don't know any of these things
Hudson Young
At least I achieved a comical effect, this time on purpose. I'll try to change one of the """"trumpets"""" for some other instrument and see what happens.
Those are not trumpets btw, but "woods high" as they are called in one high quality library (Spitfire Albion One - €300+). I'm somehow able to make them not sound like woods at all kek, that is an achievement by itself.
>Ringo Star Classical Gas I'm retarded and don't know what this means.
Does this remind you of some works by french impressionists, Ravel or Debussy or someone else, though, or am I mad?
John Turner
>eved a comical effect, yeah, way to go A.
>>Ringo Star Classical Gas >I'm retarded and do It's a joke off of Radio One 22 years ago, it was reaching a bit
>or am I mad? As are you with your comparison
Leo Edwards
CC? Lately, I've been trying to compose something classical, but soon after I begin, it starts to get a popular vibe. Don't know what to do. Anyway, whatever genre this is, what do you think of this - as a theme, since I didn't really arrange it yet.
Guys, it's probably not a good idea to try to compose pieces for multiple instruments if I can't even write for a single one well enough, r-right?
Brandon Hernandez
Song ends in ii dim. what's the cadence?
Grayson Cook
pretty much. start by writing for piano or something. basic chords and basic melodies.
eh its not really a "cadence" as such. just a change of harmony at which you ended the piece. Does it feel "final" or just weird? ending on a dim chord can't be that "final"
Caleb Russell
Not in the typical V - I, but it doesn't sound that bad. Am7 - Gdim7
Wyatt Ortiz
What scale is min7#5
also
min7#5, what an odd chord
Samuel Clark
I think that's related to the phrygian mode
Joseph Garcia
Meme? Yes. Edgy? No. They look pretty good and serve their purpose. Stockhausen uses them to great avail.
Mason Murphy
How long does it take you to make a theme or get some key idea which you then start to develop? What I'm trying to ask is, where is the point where you say "that's it, I'm satisfied with this and I will work on it"? Because I constantly improvise something "which has potential, but not quite", and I keep going in circles, never completing anything. I'm never satisfied enough to continue working on something so I only have a bunch of ideas and I don't know how to compose a complete piece. Not a /comp/ student btw.
Nicholas Hill
has anyone composed a crab canon before?
Eli Moore
What I do do is work with symmetry on my instrument It is interesting to try
>Not a /comp/ student btw as in, not taking composition in college? Or haven't studied up on all of the /comp/ essential textbooks?
I can't find the quote, but the composer John Adams once said something like this: >You can sit at the piano all day, improvising and improvising, trying to figure out the one perfect theme to create your magnum opus around, and get nothing done. If you want to get anywhere, though, you have to have the humility to stop and tell yourself, "This idea I've come up with is good enough, and it's the best I can come up with right now." Then you focus on making this imperfect idea shine.as brightly as it can.
>improvising and improvising, trying to figure out the one perfect theme to create your magnum opus around, and get nothing done. If you want to get anywhere, though, you have to have the humility to stop and tell yourself, "This idea I've come up with is good enough, and it's the best I can come up with right now." Then you focus on making this imperfect
I've got this start of a piece, and it is good, I play it over I've spent ages to find where it goes, but I can't find it, I ended up with something else, so now I've two things, both incomplete I wanted to play on Monday but I don't think it's going to happen.
Oliver Ortiz
what is 12/8
Charles Cook
a time signature, with 12 eigth notes.
Basically 4/4 with triples on every beat. that's bluesy, anyway
James Perry
more trouble than it is worth
Matthew Gray
I never get this. Why isn't there eight of them "because
can anyone req me good fiction literature that has to do with composing or a composer character that will inspire me to compose
John Morales
ask lit
also nice almost quints
Angel Reed
An easy way to avoid having a popular vibe is to do away with the repeating chord structure/bassline thing altogether. If you're more into popular than classical, you're too used to how popular music treats repeating basslines.
If you want to keep the repeating bassline, though, look into things like youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5TlSXEzzs (the obvious, least interesting example. Well I may be biased against it being a cellist) youtube.com/watch?v=uGQq3HcOB0Y (a particularly famous one for the chromatic descending bass. Starts a minute or two in.) youtube.com/watch?v=U4VQgKGbEkg (my personal favorite. Not a strict ostinato, it occasionally changes in octave and in instrument, but still.)
One other thing you can do is stop emphasizing the weak beats so much. I'm typing too much already so I made a graphic instead. (I wrote "chord 'changes'" because what you have is much more focused on the addition of different repetitive elements into the mix than on chords, like most popular music, but also John Adams, see his Short Ride in a Fast Machine.)
Something I didn't mention in the graphic was the sort of hierarchy of beats that exists. The strongest beat in quadruple meter is beat 1, the strong beat, obviously. After that is beat 3, either a weak beat or strong beat depending on who you ask, which holds its own authority but supports beat 1. And then you have beats 2 and 4, the weakest of weak beats. Fuxian counterpoint allows you dissonance on these because they don't hold harmonic weight in the listener's mind. Your bassline, however, gives these beats important notes with forward momentum like 5 and b7. Classical composers subvert this hierarchy for temporary effect, but the percussion at 0:20 sort of seals the deal for the pop aesthetic.
One more thing: it's very modal. b7 and the movement from b7 to 1 being structurally important is much more common in popular music than classical. fuck out of characters
Ian Morales
Oh, god, ended up typing too much again. I think it was choosing to describe each of the links that sucked me in. Well, whatever.
If you want to keep its modality and b7 being an important driving force, look into things like: youtube.com/watch?v=crBUvtV6HOw (almost strictly modal) youtube.com/watch?v=NZf7T1w_pPg (not modal, but very attached to b7. In fact the dominant chords in this run the gamut from V to v to v°. I just love this piece, very 20th century yet completely functionally tonal, but that's neither here nor there)
All of these things appear as artistic effects in classical music, but the confluence of them into a minute and 30 seconds creates a very pop aesthetic.
Here's some nonfiction that has good tips on composing. It could help get you started.
Gavin Mitchell
What is the best string VST?
I just want to have a realistic sounding Violin that actually sounds nice on it's own. LASS sounds absolutely ridiculous and seems useless unless you want to make "le epic soundtrack"
Jacob Walker
I use Edirol and it is passable sometimes as well as ez to torrent but it has a lot of limitations. Can anyone drop some torrents super realistic vst's and if possible tell me how to use the torrent with FL cuz sometimes I can't figure it out
Kevin Reed
Vienna Symphonic Library
Christopher Morales
I'll check them out.
I'm looking into a good sounding "single" instrument, if you understand. When you do violin with LASS for example, you have always a bunch playing, impossible to have just one single violin playing at a time.
Nathaniel Moore
In that case I would probably steer away from the aforementioned Edirol. Their solo violin instrument is absolutely abhorrent. Their Violin section is a lot more passable but their solo violin is unusable.
It's almost a cello and harpsichord concerto at times
Adrian Smith
yes. rutracker
Charles Morris
3:48 bump
Isaiah Kelly
This is great! Now I understand it better. Thanks for your time, user.
Evan Powell
Not studying composition in college. And I guess I really should focus more on those books in sticky. I only read about 2/3 of Gradus Ad Parnassum and it was easy as shit, but I probably wouldn't be able to use it IRL at all.
I think I'll start with Schoenberg's "Fundementals of Music Composition" since I have REAL troubles with theme development.
Christian Reyes
5:29 bump
Adam Lopez
Hey /comp/osers, I've been taking a break from Jazz and Classical, and have been listening to lots of Calypso recently. Does anyone have any idea on where I could get a Calypso fakebook or two, if such a thing exists?
Julian Bell
bump
Nathaniel Sanders
...
Landon Gutierrez
Mobile bump.
>when I'm improvising, I end up doing I ii4/2 Imaj7 iv6/4 VIIb9/I I9 (how do I notate inversions of nineth chords??)
