Mfw nationalist parties in Latin America are actually left-wing and not really right-wing like in America and most part...

>mfw nationalist parties in Latin America are actually left-wing and not really right-wing like in America and most part of Europe, meanwhile right-wing parties are literally open market globalist shills while not being liberals and cultural marxists like the left-wing
Why is that?

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youtube.com/watch?v=0DIp_8XepMM
garagem360.com.br/economistas-explicam-porque-o-carro-no-brasil-e-tao-caro/
reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2015-2016/competitiveness-rankings/
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Find the brazilian flag in the left manifestation

Aren't those the guys that impeached Dilma? Isn't your new government literally being subservient to the USA again, meanwhile Dilma clearly opposed NSA and other shit?

The main right-wing parties like PSDB and PMDB aren't right-wing, they are centrist at best.
PT isn't nationalistic either, they are globalists but in their own commie kind of globalism, wasting money to build stuff on random shitholes instead of their own country.

Nationalism is kind of a taboo and barely even exists here since the military dictatorship, there's Bolsonaro I guess but he's a religious nut.

>they are globalists but in their own commie kind of globalism
Uhm, I read today in an article of the NYT that Trump's proposal of building infrastructure through a national bank was actually inspired Brazil development in Lula's government, also that protectionism that Brazil's got after the 2000s is really similar to Trump's proposal to rebuild our national industries

PSDB and PMDB are Centre-left

I'm not sure but I think the protectionism is actually from Vargas' era, PT didn't really do much other than ride the commodities boom (which all other latam did too) and fuck shit up with retarded socialist policies, insane corruption and giving out money to communist shitholes.

uhm it actually said that like the US the fact that Brazil got a paired currency to dollar in 90s, pretty much an anology to our currency being the reserve currency of the world, actually made it difficult for the development of industries and actually made it dependent to the financial sector which crashed in the early 2000s, making an anology to the 2008 bubble crises, and that with Lula they removed this policy and actually focused on ramping up tariffs and making the real cheap for boosting its competitivity, allied with fostering credit to the poorest made your economy skyrocket. And they actually say that Trump's biggest mistake will probably be not distributing this profit and actually taxing the production sectors more, which will probably make the industrialists flee from the country. I don't know if it's true tho or just propaganda

Left-wing embrace of nationalist rhetoric in Latin America is opportunist. Since they don't have a large industrial working class to serve as the basis of a old-school communist party, neither the kind of racial divisions to serve as the basis of a New Left progressive party, they had to exploit nationalist feelings and Anti-American sentiment to reach power. The Worker's Party is a good example of this process. They were founded by communist intellectuals who, influenced by Trotskyism, denounced all forms of nationalism, then, during the privatization of the 1990s, they realized that they could use nationalist anger against neoliberalism for their own purposes.

That's actually changing now. The Brazilian left, at least, is importing identity politics from the Western world and becoming associated with urban intellectuals again, as it was during the 1980s and early 1990s. The Worker's Party is declining and the rising left-wing parties that will take its place will probably be social progressive and pro-globalist.

>Left-wing embrace of nationalist rhetoric in Latin America is opportunist. Since they don't have a large industrial working class to serve as the basis of a old-school communist party, neither the kind of racial divisions to serve as the basis of a New Left progressive party, they had to exploit nationalist feelings and Anti-American sentiment to reach power. The Worker's Party is a good example of this process. They were founded by communist intellectuals who, influenced by Trotskyism, denounced all forms of nationalism, then, during the privatization of the 1990s, they realized that they could use nationalist anger against neoliberalism for their own purposes.
that actually makes tons of sense 2bh

The right wing here sold the country to the US while the population starved.
The coup d'état wasn't against a leftist government, but against nationalist politicians. Vargas, Jango, Perón...

I thought it was, put simply, economic right wing parties pursue a closer relationship with America while left wing parties are generally Anti-American. Given that the states are very right wing pro-American parties have to do what their overlords tell them and be pretty right wing, while the left is a protest of sorts against their neoliberal policies.

Oh yes venezuela sold its country to the US thats why they are hungry

The economy skyrocketed because of the commodities boom and that's it, compare the GDP growth of other latam countries and they grew the same.
PT did good with getting rid of extreme poverty but it didn't invest in industry at all and instead wasted the money on corruption and populist policies, we are still as much of a banana republic as before and never expanded beyond commodities.
Brazil is still one of the worst countries in the world to open a business thanks to bureaucracy and taxation and PT did nothing to fix that, all the money went to the public sector while the private sector stagnated.

Basically PT won the lottery and wasted it on Ferraris instead of investing it.

The Brazilian military government was distinct from other ones in Latin America, like Chile and Argentina, because it was nationalist, statist and interventionist.

A lot of people, for example, claim there are simlarities between Dilma and Geisel, specially their approach towards state-led industrialization.

The problem is that this shit just doesn't work here. We are not Europeans, we are not Asians. We are not smart or disciplined enough to sustain industrial economies.

>only "nationalist" party is big on "refugees welcome" despite most of their supporters being against it
this sucks

PT is a party literally created by the workers in ABC Paulista and supported by small farmer's cooperatives around the country.
You also forgot that during the military dictatorship and the neoliberal government, more than 1600 kids died from starvation everyday.

youtube.com/watch?v=0DIp_8XepMM

Because each country has its own unique history. Because in the 21st century as generalizing labels mean nothing. Much more important is the attitude of people to specific topical issues.

2bqf the NYT Article said that you guys invested heavily on infrastructure during those years, hence why some companies got mad rich like the ones involved in your corruption schemes now. Also they said that it was this scheme of State Capitalism that actually made you guys leap from the 16th place to the 6th in 2008 in GDP. Which Trump is kinda trying to mimick in our own American Way

You know we had 1600 kids died everyday from starvation until the late 1990, right?

You forgot how everything was owned by the government, but the mineral resources were sold by a fraction of their value because Washington.

Los sudacas, incluidos los coñosureños por muy especiales que se crean, son seres tribales. Defienden a sus pútridos "países" como el que defiende un equipo de fútbol (que es la única forma de defender a un estado no-nación), con una veneración exacerbada e irracional a un trozo de tierra creado artificialmente por masones, traidores y terratenientes corruptos, mientras odian de una manera igualmente irracional y exacerbada al estado vecino, que "casualmente" fue igualmente creado artificialmente por masones, traidores y terratenientes corruptos.

Defeco en todos y cada uno de los sudacas, desde el sudaca nacido en el último rincón de Alaska, San Francisco, París o Madrid de inmigrantes sudacas muertos de hambre hasta el último indio sudaca tiraflechas parido por una india en lo más oscuro y salvaje del Amazonas.

It also led to a large government deficit, Brazil is fucked for the next 20 years because either the government freeze all investments so the deficit doesn't keep expanding or we will experience economic collapse and hyperinflation like Venezuela.

>You know we had 1600 kids dying*

the US got the biggest public deficit of the World and we are ok, I think that measure is literally just to destroy your government 2bh and submit it to the market again

You can do it because of the status of the dollar as the global reserve currency, I guess.

well I think it's more due to the fact we are sovereign government that everyone depends on. Brazil got a pretty huge economy, sure not as big as ours, so I think this problem isn't as big as probably your government is trying to convey. Your GDP to Debt ratio is still pretty low compared to other European, especially Southern European ones

The government shouldn't run businesses for several reasons:
They aren't pressured to run a profit, so they stagnate very easily.
It facilitates corruption, the more complex and big a government is the more money it will be able to steal, multiplying the damage a bad apple can do.
It legalizes monopolistic tactics, like I said before it's pretty much impossible to run a business without being propped up by the government so only their chosen ones dominate the market and there's no incentive to modernize or improve their services and products, our car industry is a good example of that: we have the most expensive cars in the world because there's no competition, these same cars are exported to other countries where they are CHEAPER and even better because those countries are used to more modern cars too.

All in all it's just a terrible sistem with deep flaws, protectionism is fine but don't let the government run shit.

2bqf, State Capitalism doesn't actually presupposes the state ownership of companies but that the government should prop up some companies to encourage jobs and development of infrastructure, pretty much like happened in Brazil according to that article. And by reading this thread I am more convinced that it was right.

>we have the most expensive cars in the world because there's no competition
uhm, don't you guys have several brands of cars?

>The government shouldn't run businesses for several reasons:
>They aren't pressured to run a profit, so they stagnate very easily.
This is a good thing in some cases. Read about the Cochabamba Water War.

There are, but they agree to fuck over the customer since there's no pressure at all from possible new brands, Brazil would never have a Tesla to shake things up for example.

Something interesting happened in the southern state RS, it was cheaper to buy cars from Argentina there, so what happened? National brands decreased their prices in that state to compete with the Argentines.

Combine high tariffs, no competition and high profit margins and you get our "industry".
I'm not all that familiar with state capitalism but while providing incentives to entrepreneurs and running basic non-profit services like health, education and infrastructure is ok, the government shouldn't ever dictate what should and shouldn't exist, it's just state-run monopoly at this point.

kek, Car prices being expensive here aren't due to the government, but much more due to the car manufacturers being greedy and saying fuck you to brazilians

And they are allowed to be greedy exactly because of the government which doesn't allow competition, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lot of money going between them behind the scenes.

The simple fact that these cars are cheaper in other countries shows that there are several things wrong with our current system.

Our biggest nationalist/independence party are socialists

>And they are allowed to be greedy exactly because of the government which doesn't allow competition,
uhm, says who? literally the government wants foreign investments all the time, especially when it is about factories, the thing is they should respect our laws when doing it

What the fuck are you talking about?

>the government which doesn't allow competition
>Renault
>FIAT
>Mercedes
>Wolkswagen
>Peugeot
>JAC Motors
>Ford
>Chevrolet
>Citroen
Clearly no competition at all

Since nazism somehow is 'extreme right', people generally see nationalism as right wing. The left/right dichotomy is completely muddled.

>our laws
You mean the extremely high taxation and bureaucracy which is designed exactly to protect the national industry?

I wouldn't mind protectionism if it didn't apply to the NATIONAL industry too, that's the fucking problem.

I already explained that, these brands are only allowed to exist here in Brazil because the government says so, the simple fact that they lowered prices in RS shows that they are running abusive profit margins because there's no competition.

Like certain things you cant't privatize because the profit margins are so low that private company goes full jew or it's so necessary that the company can just ramp up prices to absurdity and you are forced to pay like water.

Others you need a public business to put pressure on the private ones to improve standards aka "we provide a good service but it's the bare minimum, do worse then use or fail to compete and you insta lose". You can't give TOO much support to the public corporation

>I wouldn't mind protectionism if it didn't apply to the NATIONAL industry too, that's the fucking problem.
lol wat, do you know what protectionism means?

>because there's no competition.
what the hell are you saying m8, there are literally more than 10 car brands manufacturing their products in Brazil, that doesn't even make sense what are you saying, if that isn't competition than nothing is

I used the term liberally and that should be easy enough to understand, obviously I know that protectionism means protecting the national industry, don't be dense.
All I'm saying is that you can't have protectionism and make it impossible to run your own business at the same time, it's very simple to understand why that doesn't work.

Care to explain why we have the most expensive cars in the world then? Specialists agree with my interpretation of high tariffs + no competition + high profit margins. You can't just say "no" without providing proper arguments.

>high tariffs
high tariffs of what, they are made here
>no competition
10+ car brands
>high profit margins
literally the one and only explanation
All car manufacturers literally all set the price high to a big margin and compete within that high margin, it's simple m8, it's literally non-spoken agreement between them. If all cars are expensive you will see there won't be one really cheaper to destroy the rest, and none of them wants to destroy the competition but earn their share within that margin or expand it with that margin. Also because these companies aren't Brazilian they have no interest whatsoever in giving cheaper products to our market, because they have no obligation whatsoever to our country

>All I'm saying is that you can't have protectionism and make it impossible to run your own business at the same time, it's very simple to understand why that doesn't work.
m8, you are just making me more and more confused, I am not being dense m8. Protectionism actually implies in protecting our industries from other countries industries. It has nothing to do with making it impossible to run your business

>they are made here
Tariffs still apply you ignoramus.

>It has nothing to do with making it impossible to run your business
Are you honestly retarded or just pretending? I didn't imply protectionism has anything to do with that.

Anyway I'm done here, Brazil's current situation should be proof enough of why state capitalism isn't a good idea.

>Tariffs still apply you ignoramus.
no they don't, tariffs are for imported products m8...

>Brazil's current situation should be proof enough of why state capitalism isn't a good idea
looking at it you could say it was the best thing to happen to Brazil

garagem360.com.br/economistas-explicam-porque-o-carro-no-brasil-e-tao-caro/
Having to google basic stuff for you is annoying, please for the love of god educate yourself before trying to discuss shit.

Now compare GDP/capita to other south american countries and note how they didn't crash and burn like us yet.
You look at the most basic shit and draw erroneous conclusions to confirm your theories from your tiny little head.
The simple fact is that Brazil still has one of the least competitive markets in the world and no amount of wishful thinking will change that.

I know you really want your favorite economic theory to be right but the facts simply don't add up.

Se vocês vão discutir, pelo menos o façam em português. Ninguém se importa com a política brasileira, portanto para que discutí-la em inglês?

those are taxes dipshit

>the least competitive markets in the world
m8, we are so competitive in some markets that people even put tariffs on our shit for their industries to survive. You are just buying up the neoliberal propaganda. Or blames the government for your misery and the fact that you can't buy a PS4 for cheap

How the fuck is a competitive national market even related to neoliberal propaganda? Wouldn't liberals want a weaker industry so foreign business can take over?
reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2015-2016/competitiveness-rankings/
You can't just go full conspiratard and ignore verifiable facts while adding some pointless anecdote, you are in denial.

Originally nationalism was a left-wing ideology (french revolution).

Since 1848 it can also be a right wing ideology.

As of now nationalism is not a right-wing nor a left-wing ideology.

Left-wing exemples: Quebec, Scotland, Latin America, Bulgaria, Moldova, Greece

One of the reason of the failure of the left and the increase in popularity of the extreme-right is that in a lot of western countries leftist parties dropped nationalism and let the right-wing have the monopoly of it's use.

>Wouldn't liberals want a weaker industry so foreign business can take over?
Yes, exactly and how do you do that? By weaking the government regulations over the economy and submitting itself to globalism and international regulations that prioritize profit over the nation-state, USA electing Trump is literally the bottomline of that policy that Americans got so fucked by it that they literally said fuck you to them

I found it three times on the left picture.

t. Where's Wally pro

The ranking is about national industry and how it compares to other countries using metrics like size, education and efficiency, not how easy it is to open foreign business.
Again you are making some dumbass narrative unrelated to the matter at hand just to defend your flawed viewpoint.

>The ranking is about national industry and how it compares to other countries using metrics like size, education and efficiency, not how easy it is to open foreign business.
yeah, and it uses as standard what? Let me guess, the best states to open business are literally countries with little to no state regulations over the economy like Hong Kong, Singapure and others amirite?

you are really naive in believing that an international trade graph wouldn't benefit literally those that are on top, but to actually pursue more nationalism and protectionism

It uses quantifiable metrics like how long it takes to get permits and such, Japan for example is near the top because it has a strong industry and education but I don't think it's a neoliberal paradise.
Less regulation naturally means a more efficient and healthy industry as it has been proven by history itself, I'm not sure how you are expecting to have a competitive market with high regulation like we have currently, you will have to enlighten me on that.

>I'm not sure how you are expecting to have a competitive market with high regulation like we have currently, you will have to enlighten me on that.
kek, but we literally do my friend, Our steel is the most competitive of the world, our beef also, tons of commodities literally destroy every sector worldwide. The thing is, we haven't got a developed complex industry isn't due to the fact of regulation, if anything Japan is literally the best example in that, you know that only Japanese citizens can open up companies in Japan, and that their enviroment and worker's legislation is literally one of the most complex in the whole world to the point that their culture pushes the employer to take care of the employee for the rest of their life? We haven't got a developed industry outside of commodities due to the simple fact that our elites doesn't give a fuck about developing our industry m8, different from americans or other cultures that greedly pursue more and more profits and more money, our elites when they are literally set they will just settle for having a good life and won't actually give a shit for the country at all if anything they would want the country to make their life even easier by having the government loose up on them. Hence why in our case, due to our culture we need a strong government to actually build that industry or at least prop it up. And we also need a government to push for education and infrastructure so that more people can have the knowledge to achieve further development. Hence why easing up regulation would literally destroy even further the country, because the elites would use that opportunity not to develop more industries but to actually abuse the system and get more money, cause actually developing a industry is too much work for them. The biggest example of this are politicians m8

Do you have any examples of that ever happening or are you just reciting some fanfic someone wrote?
Because in the real world less state control always led to more prosperity.

>less state control always led to more prosperity.
literally all industrialized countries except the USA industrialized that way, if you want to check out look how Italy industrialized which is the most didact example, or Japan, for seeing how the zaibatsu were strong back in the day. The recipe is always the same, you need someone to pour money + a highly educated population + a nationalist sentiment ???? PROFIT