"The closest the art establishment ever came to embracing metal was punk...

"The closest the art establishment ever came to embracing metal was punk. The reason they embraced punk was because it was rubbish and the reason they embraced rubbish is because they could control it. They could say 'Oh yeah, we're punk so we can sneer at everybody. We can't play our fucking instruments, but that means we can make out that this whole thing is some enormous performance art.' Half the kids in punk bands were laughing at the art establishment, going 'What a bunch of fucking tosspots. Thanks very much, give us the money and we'll fuck off and stick it up our nose and shag birds.'"

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youtube.com/watch?v=0xINZ7zMtaI
youtube.com/watch?v=9-gRJ-fHDjI
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Greatest opera-tier metal singer ever. Up the irons. Stay cancer free Bruce.

How will punk-worshipping music critics ever recover?

Their jizz-covered David Johansen dakimakura will make them feel better at night. :^)

The eternal struggle.

>metalhead: Punk sucks wtf those guys can't play where's all the headbanging riffs and ebic shredder solos
>punkhead: Metal is all flash and no content. Punk can be played by anyone and no skill is required.

weak

Metal is the corporate version of punk, are you kidding me? Metal is nice and clean and tons of normies like it. True punk is all in the attitude, the meaning. Ramones and Sex Pistols are a bunch of fags, punk is about "fuck you, fuck me, we suck, what else are we gonna do." Metal is a bunch of queers who think their shitty symphonic sludge is worth listening to. A lot of punk may be listenable for normies, but the actual attitudes of nihilism and hedonism and destruction on display are so fundamentally against everything the average music listener stands for and contributes in that they can never truly love the music. Also metal just sounds like shit

Black Sabbath is the only good "metal" band and that's because they didn't proudly proclaim themselves underneath that label like all shitty bands following them have. They were just playing what they wanted, whereas every other cunt since has desperately tried to be more and more "metal," it's almost like satire it's so shitty

Nice Scaruffi copypaste.

i don't know who that is, that's just how i feel
i took a year long class on metal, hated everything after the first 2 weeks, it's actually all garbage. every single sub genre, trash

kys

youtube.com/watch?v=GzJA1xQxTCU

>implying Ramones and Sex Pistols aren't the embodiment of "fuck you, fuck me, we suck, what else are we gonna do."

glorified pop music

not even gonna watch that vid, nice try metalfag

>Metal is nice and clean

stopped reading there

youtube.com/watch?v=zop28gjcOUc

whatever you say family, you're as close-minded as the average retarded metalhead

>glorified pop music
>he calls himself a punk
>doesn't get the Ramones
Not harxxxcore enough for you?

This kind of noise is more my style but I mean listen to the guitar behind it, it's well structured and if not for the noise it would sound very crisp. That's how like all metal is. That song is more noise than metal anyway if you ask me. Anyway the modern punk and metal is mostly really similar stuff, it has all blurred together. Honestly I don't even enjoy modern punk hardly at all. I think Death Grips and B L A C K I E are the most punk artists today.

I do enjoy going to shows though (yes even for modern metal). I like the raw, live energy of performances but I have no idea how anyone could just walk around listening to that crap on their headphones or something. Black metal and all that shit also are not my thing at all. Only decent metal is the stuff that's been influenced by hardcore punk. Metal gets better with punk influence, punk gets worse with metal influence, who'd a thunk it?

Say what you want, but Sex Pistols were the most hardcore band of 1976, 'hardcore' meaning not 'cool guy' rock'n'roll attitude but the embodiment of total chaos, brutal violence and unparalleled frustration of late 70's England. I don't like them at all, it's clearly not nice or optimistic music.

I don't call myself a punk, I have not done so once. I get the Ramones, lyrically they're alright sometimes but honestly that stuff is just a little too slow and tame for me. If they had harder themes and lyrics I could maybe get behind the music because I love Black Flag's slower stuff, things like that. I also love stuff from the same era and earlier, like electric eels, urinals, tons of proto punk and garage rock. But Ramones and Sex Pistols I have never liked more than a couple of songs by

I guess, I have more interest in composition than image so punk really doesn't do it for me.

wait wait wait, you like the Urinals but Ramones are too slow for you?

Both genres are turds, desu.

>Metal.
>Recto/5150/JCM 800.
>"Crank the gain boys!"
>Same handful of Mustaine and Hammer riffs encompasses 99% of all solos.
>Throwaway vocals and lyrics.
>God awful mixes.

>Punk.
>Nobody can play.
>Shitty shrill tone.
>Same handful of lyrical themes.
>Songs lose valuation quickly after repeated listens.
>Unbelievably bad recordings.

Not too slow, just too soft. Too boring. They don't excite me. I also associate them with poser punk rock girls who wear Target boots and plaid skirts and Ramones t shirts though so maybe that's part of it

>Indie rock
>nothing to say, it's perfect

No... Indie is shit too.

Eh, Ramones are a pretty uncool band nowadays, no poser punk likes them. A poser punk girl has like a Black Flag or Minor Threat shirt.

What do you even listen to

>Consuming media.
Kek.

I also HATE Minor Threat by the way. I like the music but I disagree so much with everything they stand for on all levels, I think they are just huge elitist dickheads. You're right though, lots of h/c fucks wear those shirts. But I'm talking about the regular old normie girls who think they're edgy, not the kinds that get tats and stupid hair colors and spider web pantyhose and go to shows to look cool. The ones who want to be edgy without doing anything remotely edgy wear Ramones merch

>Honestly I don't even enjoy modern punk hardly at all. I think Death Grips and B L A C K I E are the most punk artists today.
Speaking of contemporary punk, the lads are miles ahead of these chichi yankees.
youtube.com/watch?v=0xINZ7zMtaI

>"fuck you, fuck me, we suck, what else are we gonna do."
>Ramones

Not really m8. They had too many love songs and straightforward Pop elements.

>I think Death Grips and B L A C K I E are the most punk artists today
oh boy

>True punk is all in the attitude, the meaning.
Black metal is metal's punk.

Honestly don't know what you mean, have never listened to much black metal other than seeing a few shows and my metal class passing over it, didn't like it. Can you explain a bit?

Eh, their stupid-kid posturing and edginess juxtaposed with trashy pop elements is what makes them so great. For every Oh Oh I Love Her So they have a 53rd and 3rd or Glad to See You Go.

By being so intentionally retarded they're basically saying "yeah we're all fucked and retarded, but who the hell cares"

metal is simply a much bigger genre than punk. your criticisms are probably true of the metal you've listened to, but there's a lot of variety out there and that's coming from a non-metalhead who has only scratched the surface. saying metal is x or y at this point is a bit ridiculous

youtube.com/watch?v=9-gRJ-fHDjI

youtube.com/watch?v=tMPfYr7JiZM

...

>67808748

Why this?

>
what

See, I can get behind this kind of thing musically, but vocals like that are absolutely ridiculous. I would never want anyone to know I listened to that sort of thing if I actually liked it. Presently, it just makes me laugh and takes me out of the music. Though it is effective-ish at live shows since you're really feeling the moment and it's a part of the mood it creates. For some reason when I listen to stuff like that recorded it is just absurd

>but vocals like that are absolutely ridiculous. I would never want anyone to know I listened to that sort of thing

punk fans confirmed for 100% image-obsessed

>Can you explain a bit?
The presentation, the production, the distribution, the attitude and ethos, the sonic abrasiveness of it, the DIY approach especially with one man projects.

i don't want people to think i'm stupid
i'd think someone who i saw listening to that stuff was really fucking stupid
like as stupid as one can be

also metal is for white trash
punk is for everyone

>you're really feeling the moment
maybe what you're missing is that some people give themselves to music even while listening on headphones and don't just have it on as background music.

>I would never want anyone to know I listened to that sort of thing if I actually liked it
irrelevant to the quality of the music, and kinda pathetic

>I would never want anyone to know I listened to that sort of thing
if this is one of the first things you think about then you're thinking about music wrong

see
image obsesssed

To follow up, Black metal is more punk in its ethos than punk is itself, punk is very community oriented, whereas black metal is much more individualistic and DIY.

Even when genuinely listening on my own in my room, it's laughable. It's stupid.

youtube.com/watch?v=Xy-d7ZlEjBQ

This band is a parody of late 80s hardcore punk, especially D beat ripoffs but it's still basically how I feel when I listen to the kind of things you posted. It sounds like a joke

black metal was the punk of 90's
these guys were even more socially relevant than all rottens and ramones altogether

I'm sorry you feel that way, unfortunately it doesn't count for much as an objective argument and says more about your inability to give yourself up to art and your insecurity about what people would think of the things you listen to in private

>black metal was the punk of 90's
>these guys were even more socially relevant than all rottens and ramones altogether
Yes yes yes, bingo.

Black metal has pretty much done everything punk has failed to.

I see punk as solely about the individual and I hate the trend of bullshit social justice stuff that has been going on since DK and before (though I like plenty of the bands). I see what you mean though. Thanks for explaining more. I can't really appreciate the music but I'm glad I understand more about it now

haha you got me
it's not really i'm worried what others will think
it's that i think it's stupid and i would think poorly of myself if i listened to that junk

you're right about lots of punks being too into self image though, but metal is the same way. that's why you have all the fucks in both genres who wear jackets covered in horror movie patches and shitty surface level band shirts and stuff. "I have to show you my personality through the creations of other people" you know? That shit pisses me off a lot

I don't think there can be an objective argument about art. I simply don't like metal, very surface level. I haven't tried to get more into it because all I have listened to has been bad in my opinion, so I don't have any desire to explore further. I don't feel that there is anything there to "give myself up to," it's nothing to me. I'm glad others like it but I just can't and never will

the only thing they didn't accomplish is blowing up the Trondheim cathedral

your taste is subjective, but you can make objective criticisms of art. for that reason I don't really care that you don't like it, but things like
>Metal is nice and clean and tons of normies like it.
>every other cunt since has desperately tried to be more and more "metal," it's almost like satire it's so shitty
are what I was responding to

that wasnt me

but black metal is slow and gay and whiny and incomprehensible and punk is fast and cool and loud and shouty

so i guess you're right, since punk never tried to be the worst genre of music ever created black metal has in fact succeeded in outdoing it there

>since punk never tried to be the worst genre of music ever created

oh, so it wasn't even intentional?

>not Halford

my bad, I was just following the comment thread

>but black metal is slow and gay and whiny and incomprehensible
ignoring the ridiculousness of saying that black metal is all slow, this is actually one of the reasons black metal is much more individualistic. it's pure expression of pain or anger with little care for how it's interpreted. in being "loud and shouty" punk is about creating community anthems about common political interests. there's nothing wrong with that, they serve different purposes

>I see punk as solely about the individual and I hate the trend of bullshit social justice stuff that has been going on since DK and before

It's okay though, let punk die, let the rich kids have it.

In theory, metal is today's real rock and roll--the music of the people. It's basic, it's rude, kids love it, parents hate it. But the closer you look, the stupider and more delusory it seems. Metal isn't basic--it cultivates a pseudo-virtuosity that negates content. The dreams it promulgates are usually foolish and often destructive. 80% of the "people" who like it are male, and 98% of them are white.

>80% of the "people" who like it are male, and 98% of them are white.
it's a heavy masculine genre that has emerged out of countries where whites are the majority. although that's not to legitimise this as an actual criticism

I think his argument is that metal doesn't bring people together the way the 50s rock-and-roll did when he was a kid, but then how many fans of his beloved punk aren't white males?

fair enough, I just don't really see where metal claims to be "the music of the people". maybe specific artists (I don't know) but I certainly don't see it attempting to be that on any mass level

yep, Christgau fails to realize that metal is intentionally elitist, but then he doesn't listen to a lot of it.

and escapist. honestly the more I think about it that comment makes no sense. for a genre so huge, metal is incredibly isolated and self-sufficient.

What's being referred to here is the gradual fragmentation of the rock world into scenes and subcultures after the 70s as opposed to the monolithic structure it was in the 50s-70s. Even Bruce Dickinson said such. "In the 60s-70s, nobody gave a thought if you had the Rolling Stones and Yes next to each other on your record shelf."

By the 80s it was well divided into punk, alternative (basically more commercial punk with hooks), pop metal (basically poofy cockrock popular with girls), and "real" metal which would comprise all the Ozzys, Maidens, and Metallicas, and which was almost entirely the provenance of 13-25 year old white males.

>le punk vs metal rivalry

this is not and never was a thing excelt for retarded-ass middle american teenagers who know nothing about either genre you fucking imbecile

also

>punkhead

they are called punks

right, I just fail to see why that's somehow an unintended failure of metal and not exactly what metal stands for and tries to be

listen to darkthrone

Well yeah, the first 20 years of rock it was monolithic. Males, females, blacks, and whites all listened to the same artists although blacks increasingly moved away from rock after the 60s. By the 80s, it was all divided into scenes and by gender.

>black metal
>slow

jesus christ listen to some fucking bathory

Alternative rock was a tad more inclusive and had both male and female fans while almost no girls like metal unless they're bulldyke lesbians.

but metal is loved by plenty of hispanics and blacks, there are burgeoning metal scenes in africa, some of the most popular/acclaimed metal bands ever have non-whites in them. sepultura? slayer? metallica? suffocation? it's a totally bullshit criticism because to say the metal fanbase is overwhelmingly white and male is categorically incorrect, and also, this isn't a criticism of anything in particular because being white and male is not a negative thing. he's just trying to shame others and be a moral authoritarian through his critiques like he usually does. fuck christgau.

you guys do know he wrote that column in 1988

Sorry, but everything you listed describes shitty teen angst screamo shit, which isn't fucking metal.

I hate that we live in a world where normies think screaming about your high school breakup equates metal.

Because it fucking isn't.

>The reason they embraced punk was because it was rubbish and the reason they embraced rubbish is because they could control it.

so how again did they control it?

>Death Grips
>punk

Go back to Pitchfork.

they embody the spirit more than pop-punk bands. who's a new band that is truly punk?

kind of digging this desu, transylvanian hunger feels like nosferatu: the album or something, thanks for the rec

>le white people are evil xd

Nobody tell Christgau how fucking huge metal is in South America or Japan.

this

Learn to look at the fucking dates and learn context before you get buttmad that Christgau doesn't share your shitty music taste

You sound like a music journalist who knows fuck all about punk, just stop.

Not him, and I think the same applies to just as many metal fans as punks, but basically the idea of a "counter culture" is quickly thrown out the window when those who partake in it continue the same competition of consumerism as the majority culture. Repping your merch, showing off how punk or metal you are, buying into the idea of whatever life style the music tells you you should be living, etc. It's just a small scale, faux-hardcore version of the regular society where instead of a picket fence and 2 and a half kids the man on top has the biggest boots and the best nail polish.

I'm not arguing that it's exclusively white, just that there's an obvious explanation for it being mostly white that makes christgua even pointing its whiteness out as if it means anything kinda stupid

>to say the metal fanbase is overwhelmingly white and male is categorically incorrect
it is mostly white and male even now. I agree that it's not exclusionary, but the vast majority of it is in white countries in europe and north america.

Master of Puppets [Elektra, 1986]

I feel a distinct generation gap between myself and this music--not because my weary bones can't take its power and speed, but because I was born far too early to have had my dendrites rewired by progressive radio. The speed and momentum of this band can be impressive, and like most fast metal bands (as well as some sludge metal), they seem to have acceptable political motivations--antiwar, anti-conformity, even anti-coke. Fine. The problem is that metal is based on a reactionary gentility--its imagery is that of Arnold Schwarzenegger as Conan the Barbarian, all flowing hair and huge pecs. That's certainly not the revolutionary heroes I envision--they're not male chauvinists too naive to know better, and I am no more entitled to feel heroic from listening to this music than I would the 1812 Overture. B-

Punk and metal are rivals

If you don't recognize that you know nothing about the two genres beyond the fact that they both use distorted guitars

This.

If you fuckers never listened to Suicidal Tendencies or Cro-Mags, you'd know how amazing metal and punk sound when you put them together.

Not that guy, I'm one of the ones saying I dislike metal earlier in the thread. One thing I have noticed about all hardcore and DIY scenes I've been in over the years is that a black guy can't just show up without being viewed as a novelty. People go up to them like "Dude, it's SO cool that you like metal/punk/whatever" and I can tell it's really demeaning and insulting. Even in the more "safespace" type places (where raw as fuck bands yell at people for using the word bitch) this happens, and I feel it discourages minorities from participating since they feel like outsiders even in the so-called outsider culture.

which is why fugazi is arguably the most punk band ever. completely independent, no specific look or image, no merch. obviously minor threat ticked the lifestyle box with straight edge, but fugazi wasn't as preachy in that regard

Let's be honest, punk hasn't been relevant since the late 70s and only retards are punks in 2016.

Punk is just another rock and roll genre, there's no reason to belong to the subculture and conform to it's rules. Only retard edgelords who don't realize that you can say "fuck you" to everything and still not wear ripped jeans and a mohawk who care about the genre anymore.

You guys do know that he's forever butthurt because jocks kicked his ass in high school.

"I was never an Elvis Presley fan when I was a kid. In fact, I couldn't stand him. As it happened, I heard "Don't Be Cruel" three or four times before I learned Elvis was singing it, and once I had admitted to myself that I was hooked on that song, it was no real sacrifice to extend my reluctant enthusiasm to "All Shook Up." But I never understood the excitement over "Heartbreak Hotel"--I considered the Stan Freberg parody exceedingly witty--and refused to even listen to "Hound Dog" or "Love Me Tender." Can it be that I was the only American under age sixteen who wasn't shaken by that seismic pelvic power? Bob Dylan lived for Elvis, and I thought he was just another greaseball.

Of course, he really was a greaseball, which was why I didn't like him--he reminded me of every rock who ever threatened to beat me up. All of his musical contemporaries were faintly comic, and most of them were black. They had no real connection to me. I loved Jerry Lee Lewis's records, but I wasn't really shocked, much less inspired, when he married a cousin who was younger than I was--that was the kind of thing crazy people from Louisiana did--and I laughed and laughed the first time I saw Fats Domino on television, because he was wearing what looked like high-top basketball sneakers, dazzling white, with white crepe soles an inch thick. Elvis was different. Like a lot of straight and scared-shitless adolescent males, I must have been jealous of his effect on girls, and perhaps I gained some cachet in my own mind by dissenting from such blanket popularity. But it was simpler than that. He was real, almost like guys I knew, and he frightened me a little."

"Punk rock is dead. We're just giving it a proper funeral and honoring its memory as best we can."

--Kurt Cobain

maybe it's just that I'm in a major city, but I've never once experienced that at a punk or metal show as a mixed person who doesn't pass as white

but then again I don't frequent any place associated with "safespaces"

>his opinions from when he was a kid in the 50s matter now
>hurr hes a weak little nu-male why won't he appreciate my BRUTAL MANLY METAL MUSIC
Metal's aesthetic is stupid and cringy as hell, just admit it

Source?

Everyone's childhood experiences shape their world view in some way.

What's your point? Are you saying that Christgau's distrust of meathead machismo is bad?

I really don't care for Minor Threat because of the straight edge stuff (not as bad as Vegan Reich and that kinda shit) but I dig them musically. Fugazi on the other hand I just can't get into at all. I've tried and tried but I haven't been able to "get" it, I don't see what the big deal is with them.

I love punk, but I'm definitely not "a" punk, in fact I've been criticizing the absurd poser fanbase the h/c scene attracts nowadays all thread. I don't necessarily think punk is dead, its ethos is alive in bands like Death Grips and such and just as powerful as ever, but most bands labeling themselves "punk" today are closer to metal imo and in addition to that many of them suck shit

Also metal guys go out of their to dress metal just like punks do to dress punk

I just want to make punk music now after reading that