HOW DOES OUR LANGUAGE SHAPE THE WAY WE THINK?

HOW DOES OUR LANGUAGE SHAPE THE WAY WE THINK?

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As in you wouldnt be able to ask that question without knowing the words that would be used to create it

There are a lot of little differencies between languages that shape the way we see the world, like that english idiom " it's raining cats and dogs ", in french we don't have it, when it's raining here, " it's falling ropes ".
All these minor differences adds and and in the end you have a different wordview.
That's one of the funniest thing to see when learning a language imo.
Interesting thread

Ask Heidegger.

I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is: How does our language stop us from thinking?

>that english idiom " it's raining cats and dogs ", in french we don't have it, when it's raining here, " it's falling ropes "
here "it's raining chair-legs"

Not a specific language, but I've heard in some documentary about apes that knowledge of words - how to call something and how to describe it - slows down our thinking process - each time we see something our brain generates description for it. That's why apes can do some games like "memo game" a lot faster and more efficient - they have less data to remember.

Raw thought doesn't take the form of any language until you either write it down or express it verbally. That's why language is ass, if it doesn't happen to have fitting and accurate expressions for what you're trying to convey it'll ruin a good idea.

Yeah, because if you change idiomatic expressions makes all that difference.
It's literally a substitution.
A lot of people confuse the cause-effect relationship.
It's not the language that shapes culture, it's the other way around.

>Sapir whorf

Does that mean knowing more languages slows our thinking more?

It's funny how idioms only make sense in English.

If you hear Dutch idioms translated into English, for example, they make literally no sense at all.

Words have different meaning dependent on the language due to association, the history of the word and it's root.
Bulgaria associates slavery with the Turkish kind, americans with the human property kind.
Rape (iznasilvane) has it's root in violence in the Bulgarian language so nonviolent rape is a strange concept to us.

that remind of me one """""THEORY""""" i heard that east asians write vertically so they automatically endorse vertical hierarchy in society

There's some language in SEA where there's no words for left or right, so you have to use east west etc. This means that people that speak it are always subconsciously aware which direction north is in

If you translate English idioms in other languages, the'll make no sense too.

>It's funny how idioms only make sense in English.

It's also funny how monolingual people just don't get it.

It's a way of perceiving the world, beliefs, nature and so on that has evolved over millennia within every cultural group, and continues to evolve. The eskimos of Greenland f.i have over 20 words that mean 'white', each one with its little specific nuance. It makes sense when your world is white.

>It's funny how idioms only make sense in English.

Same thing happens in some local languages here.

German also makes you autistic.

If we want to emphasize that something's never going to happen we say "when gypsy kids will fall from the sky"
Or "when it's raining red snow"

A lot of figurative speech and expressions cannot easily be translated.

In Dutch you have a lot of trueisms that people believe in that don't exist in English. And vice versa.

Indeed
> burdel
> prostíbulo
> lupanar
> puticlub
> casa de putas
> casa de mala reputación
> mancebía
> lenocinio

>puticlub

Cute

We should ask eskimos which nation is really white

Dutch people constantly say "act normal" and "Act normal, then you already act crazy enough".

And "Don't stick your head out above the mowing field or it gets cut off."

While in America this concept doesn't really exist. So acting different from others is more accepted.

>angloposting

it doesn't

WHen I speak german I am your typical autistic robot, direct, on point, angry. When I am speaking english, I am delighted, engage in smalltalk and be more enthusiastic.
Something something we have a language-character

That's a post I'd expect from an American

Yeah. To give a better example of what you mean: in English you have the words "beard" and "moustache" which are completely different words. So an English speaker would tell you that a moustache is not a beard. But in German we call moustaches "Oberlippenbart" which - freely translated - means "above the lip beard". So a German would tell you that moustaches are a kind of beard too.

And maybe an opposite example: in German we have the words "Stuhl" (chair) and "Sessel" (armchair), so I as a German would say that a chair and an armchair are two completely different things. But an English speaker would refer to both as chairs, because they pretty much are, just one of them is cozier

I never discovered the English word for a muts (Mütze in German) either.

My google translate says it means "cap"

I think they are called beanies. But they also fall under the category of hats in English. But in Dutch it's definitely not a hat.

In Dutch potatoes aren't vegetables either. So Germans and Frenchies often don't eat their veggies.

Damn,you had me google the source of the colloquial term for moustache (muštace; standard would be brki) because I always thought it was from German but now I see that it originally comes from Greek

I think that's beanie in English

I don't know what you mean. It trigger off societies hierarchy to how to write language,doesn't it?

And if you don't eat your veggies you aren't eating a real meal according to my countrymen.
So Germans and Frenchies often eat very bad dishes that aren't real meals.

fkin nips

In Japanese, we don't differentiate between a toad and a frog | a crocodile and an alligator | a turtle and a tortoise | a wasp and a hornet.

Lol we don't consider potatoes as vegetables, we put them in a separate category with pasta and bread called "feculents".
We're not certain if the tomato is a fruit or a vegetable tho

Turn off your fan, Park, before you die from fan death. And stop tattooing your eye brows

We normally don't differentiate between apes and monkeys.

If we do then we call monkeys "apes". And apes are called "human apes".

There's a cultural difference in the way it's appropriate to express yourself in Finnish vs English without appearing strange.
Perhaps in the future this will be different.

Same here, but we only use word 'monkey' (małpa) to describe both apes and monkeys

Kinda same here. We regard apes as a subcategory of monkeys. "Planet of the apes" was translated to "Planet of the monkeys".

In English, we don't mark a difference between "you", "you" or "you"

Planet of the Brazilians.

But there is a difference between you and (You).

...

Are you saying the difference between those pairs of words are nonexistent?

I heard what English lacks in morphology (less pronouns, no cases, no conjugations), it makes up for in stricter syntax.
In German you could say "Ich habe meine Mutter gesehen" or switch it around to "Meine Mutter habe ich gesehen", but in English you can only say "I saw my mother"

I think you meant difference between: "you" (ty), "you" (ci), "you" (ciebie), "you" (tobą) and "you" (tobie).

Also: "your" (twój), "your" (twojego), "your" (twojemu) and "your" (twoim)

English definitely needs a plural (you)

>In German you could say "Ich habe meine Mutter gesehen" or switch it around to "Meine Mutter habe ich gesehen",
Can you tell us the difference?

Apparently, just the word order without loss of meaning

you can change it a little bit and say something like "my mother i have seen" but there usually isn't a reason to do that unless you're stressing a particular part of a sentence

I have seen my mother.
My mother have I seen.

His example wasn't ideal, but I know what he means.

The same works here
"Minä näin äitini
Äitini näin minä
Näin minä äitini"
The word we want to emphasize can be put at the beginning of the sentence

Don't forget plurals:
>you (wy), you (wam), you (was) and you (wami)
>your (wasz), your (waszego), your (waszemu) and your (waszym)

I could do that in even more ways (although some would say a bit weird)
Videl sem svojo mamo.
Videl sem mamo svojo.
Sem videl svojo mamo.
Sem svojo mamo videl.
Sem videl mamo svojo.
Mamo svojo sem videl.
Mamo sem videl svojo.
Svojo mamo sem videl.

Also dual you desu

I want to slide my dick right into her mouth.

>sapir whorf

In some Altaic languages there are possessive suffixes
jer(land) - jerim(my land) - jerime(to my land)
jerin(your land)
jeriniz(your land)
jeri(his/her/their land)
jerimiz(our land) - jerimizde(in our land)

Future tense is always uncertain as well in Altaic languages

I think he means that there is no difference between the singular, the plural form and the one you use to speak with someone you don't know or someone who has a higher social standing

>ABSOLUTE RUNT, GO BACK TO /BRIT/

Dutch people constantly use diminutives. The English language has borrowed some Dutch ones, such as: Mommy, daddy, cookie, doggy, Frenchie.

As you can already see in English it has a huge impact on how you experience a word.

thx. I got it. I'm too autistic to take notice that he was implying the simpleness of second person pronouns in English.

These possessive suffixes already took shape and have a specific grammatical meaning. I can add them into any noun
Diminutives seem to be another category though.. Although they usually can give you an idea of ownership
There are some diminutives(-mis, -kan, -jan) in Kazakh. But their function isn't so significant as in flexible languages

(you) was the plural, (thou) was the singular, thou got dropped for some reason about 300-400 years ago

Whoa just change the J with Y and it's the same in turkish

It does a lot. I think my personality changes when I shift between languages. I speak French, English, Russian and Portuguese. I can sense very clearly how my thought proccess changes a little bit.

Pretty sure they pronounce J as Y.

Because stupid peasants

People today are starting to drop the 'Th' sound because shitty schools and don't teach people to speak properly

>speak properly
How people speak is proper speech. Not counting the immigrant abominations, of course

Changes(happened in post-Cuman period if I'm not mistaken)
ç --> ş("hungry" aç --> aş)
ş --> s("food" aş --> as)
y --> j("to win" yen- --> jen-
Loss of labial synharmonism)

That's cool. Looks like you know so much about linguistics

the way of thinking is really different between Japanese and English
English pays attention on "who takes the responsibility"
Japanese pays attention on "whose state has changed"

English: Japanese
surprise him: odorokasu (make him odoroku)
I get surprised: odoroku
I have a brother: there is a brother for me.
three people were killed in the accident : three people died in the accident
I want to eat this / This is eat-appearing.

English: don't you do that? - yes, I do / no i don't
Japanese: don't you do that? - no, I do / yes, i don't

Don't you do that? Yes.

"Yes I don't" is the logical answer.

Because with yes you confirm the statement of the other person.

In fact, we pronounce "j" like [d͡ʑ]
I have seen very few exceptions: ana jaqta(in that place) --> an"yaqta

>This is eat-appearing.
Made me giggle
>English: don't you do that? - yes, I do / no i don't
>Japanese: don't you do that? - no, I do / yes, i don't
Apparently japanese makes more sense. But german has "doch" so it makes even more sense

i don't know but
i have a different personality and a different voice when i speak different languages

...

I've seen some similar aspects in Japanese and Kazakh. Like:
verb(participial form) + look --> try to do smth
verb(participial form) + state verbs --> continuous forms
verb + postpositions --> a dependent clause
verb + won't become --> mustn't/shouldn't do smth

thats a very interesting subjectc
i heard about it in the radio long time ago

I believe languages that use logograms potentially create less inventive/creative people.

For example, the chinese are notoriously uncreative and very often cheat and steal ideas rather than create their own.

I think the logograms in the language may contribute to this. In chinese there are a set amount of characters to choose from, several thousand of them, each their own character with their own set sound and tone. When you need to create a word for a new idea or thing, you can do it:
A) phonetically by creating a loan word: eg. 夹克 - Jiákè - jacket;
or
B) by creating a literal or figurative translation: eg. 电脑 - Diànnǎo - computer, where 电=electric and 脑=brain, so in mandarin computer literally means electric brain.

I think that the fact that they have to draw from a predetermined set of characters that have set sounds, they draw from already created concepts. So their brain is wired to create ideas more grounded in already existing things, and they are therefore less imaginative.

In english however, our phonetics are far more flexible and we can easily take words from other languages or create our own translations more easily.

And Japan has logograms, but they also have hirigana and katakana, and japanese are generally quite robotic, but they also have a subset of intensely creative people, and I believe that may be because their language uses both kinds of alphabet, both logographic and phonetic.

Thoughts?

>Can you tell us the difference?
Normally you'd use the first word order, so if you use the second order it would be to stress something.
E.g.: “Have you seen your mother?” – “My mother (?) I have seen.” (the “(?)” signifies a point where your voice would go up a little to convey that you're thinking about whether you have or not).
Or maybe someone asks you for fun: “So what girl have you met today?” And to play along, you'd respond: “My mother I have seen.” So you'd put the object in front to stress that the “girl” you met was in fact your mother.

Generally, in colloquial German (and other langauges, too, as opposed to English (at least in my experience)), people switch the word order around and sprinkle small adverbs all over the place to convey exactly how they mean what they are saying. In English, people rather just use tone of voice to do the same.

Sie ist eine Freundin von mir = She is just a friend
Sie ist meine Freundin. = She is a lover

is this right?

Yes, English needs a negative-yes.

>thoughts

Bullshit.
Chinks are creative but very conforming wich stiffles the expression of creativity which is still there. Also communism fucked them hard in the brain, there is something about post-communist countries that makes people inflexible.

I mean..
Explain this shit...
youtube.com/watch?v=4TzLejrJ6I8

Pretty much. Although the first one could also mean she's part of your harem; you could use “Sie ist nur eine Freundin“ (literally “She is just a friend”) to make it clearer.
For the second, it could also mean that she is just a friend, it's not that clear. German has no distinction between friend and girl-/boyfriend, so the second sentence can mean either of: “She is my friend.” or “She is my girlfriend.”
Normally you'd use it to say she's your girlfriend, though, and people would understand it as such and look at you funny if they don't believe you're a couple.

Lets give an example, in the English language, there is no common words for types of search patrol
Meaning you would say "We would go on a search patrol, and we would act and do it like this".
This means without any training or education, there is no structure on the search patrol.

In the Scandinavic language, there is a word for search patrol. There is also words for types of patrols.
So a Scandinav would say "Lets go on a manngard", and without any training would replicate the form. The Englishman needs to be training search patrols, and need to educate the fellows he is going to go searching with.

And this go very far beyond that. If a language has to explain something, instead of using a idiom or a word, that will hamper communication around the subject.

Also this.
Basic things like "I promise" can mean different things in different languages.
And the speaker will in most cases fall back on their core language for meanings.
So a Englishman might thnk a Promise is a heavy thing, a Nigerian its not a big deal.

Chinese were creative, I agree, but they have had the same language for over 2000 years and not all that much innovation has happened over that time.

Their culture has been very conforming for a long time, they are very set in the roles that mothers, fathers, children, peasants and mandarins and emperors etc had for a long time before communism came about. Their social and governmental systems have stifled change and new ideas for centuries. I really don't think you can simply blame communism for it.

You don't think that their language might potentially impact on the way they think and the way their society is structured? Chinese still are very traditional and don't break from their old concepts that much.

I'm not saying they CAN'T be creative, just that they as a people generally are less so than many other peoples.

>Sie ist eine Freundin von mir = She is just a friend
>Sie ist meine Freundin. = She is a lover

>is this right?
Yes. But you can make sentences with "meine" and "Freundin" that mean she's your friend:
Sie ist meine beste Freundin.
Sie ist meine gute Freundin Anna.

I also want to add, I think that in the future, we will probably see chinese using the pinyin writing system more commonly in the future.

Pinyin is the system designed for non-mandarin speakers to learn characters and their tones. So diànnǎo is the pinyin translation of 电脑. It's far easier and more efficient to remember 26 characters and 4 tone accents than remembering thousands of individual characters. I think the chinese government will push the use of pinyin to increase their cultural influence and make it easier for the world to imbibe their culture.

Its too entry level.
Especially when normal literacy wasn't common in the periods where the Language Shaped The Culture.
There is a lot more to languages than the written parts.

You are forgetting there is an entire education system, the formal culture, and many other parts, that makes things.
Meanwhile Americans will shitpost over their "Exceptialism" or "Creativity" while slowly killing both with horrible education systems.

>You don't think that their language might potentially impact on the way they think and the way their society is structured?
Did their society form to fit the language, or did the language change to reflect their society?

Its always both, but it might not be to a big degree.
The bonus point is that Written records isn't verbal records, so there is also a lot of missing information

Well I didn't mean to say that their language is the only thing that influences them as people, but is a factor in it.

Obviously language permeates every aspect or a culture, so their society and government are also intertwined and influenced by their system.

Another part of their language is the phonetic part. Mandarin is a tonal language, there is a set amount of sounds (eg. Qin, Xin, Lin, Hei, Bei, Wei, etc) that are modifed by 4 tones. So there is a set, predetermined amount of sounds you can use in chinese, and each sound has an associated character.

For exampled, when a chinese person yells out in exclamation, they will say "哎呀" or "Āiyā!" which translates roughly to "damn!" or "darn!" (non expletive).

In english you could say "ARGH" or "BLERGHH" for a similar thing. And not only could you say it, so you could write the approximate sound down on paper for other people to read. You can't really do that easily in chinese, you could write "哎哎哎哎哎" to approximate "AAAAAAA" but they don't really do that, instead they generally just use aiya. So in books and fiction and such, rather than being able to use new words created phonetically, they simply use "aiya" to get the word across, otherwise they might create confusion.

So yeah my point is that in a logographic language, their options are more limited than in a non-logographic language, which may feed into their mindset.

You could be on to something, but my thoughts on that vary a little.
You're basically saying that in order to invent a new word in Chinese, you have to combine existing words/ideas, like electric brain/computer.
But I think that's exactly how real creativity works. People don't come up with ideas out of thin air, there's always some inspiration, ideas and all that.
For example, you could say YouTube as a platform is revolutionary, but it basically just took the idea of television and applied it to the world wide web. And the internet itself is basically just a global-scaled communication network, not much different than sending mail pigeons except infinitely faster.

So if anything, the Chinese should be more creative than anyone