populstat.info/Asia/chinac.htm 70 million Chinese decreased around UK-Qing Opium War. Even Mao Zedong's Great Leap decreased 25 million. KMT-PRC war in 1949 decreased 6 million.
1.5 million had "increased" per year after civilian war in 1920. 5 million per year increased before that. 3 million had "increased" per year steadily for Japan-KMT War. Before that, 3 million per year increased. Same rate.
Theyre chinks, noone gives a flying fuck if they live or die, not even other chinks
William Myers
Bump for interest and general war crime denial
Grayson Garcia
>Bump for interest and general war crime denial 70 million decrease crime denial. 6 miliion Jew dead propaganda denial. Are two same?
Jayden King
its a good war
Juan Hall
So, your entire argument falls on a population statistics?
You are fantastic historian material.
You are only a jap trying to minimize Japanese atrocities in China, by in some ridiculous way make it seem as if some other group has done worse to china.
Really all it took me was to google "1850 China" to find the real answer.
There is no such thing as war crimes before 1899. If you were at war with a nation, you were at war with its soldiers, its citizens, its women and its dogs.
The Holocaust happened at a time after a number of international laws of war had been signed and meant a breach of many of them. The Brits in China did not break any laws of war because they didn't exist then.
Jose Campbell
Also, the First opium war took place about 8 years before the population goes kaput.
You can't even read a graph.
Japs are supposed to be smart, get your shit together.
Asher Rogers
Reminder that this OP is a notorious legit retard known as Tobirama-kun. Don't reply to his posts. They are just full of nonsensical gibberish.
Easton Torres
Jap is correct and this isssue is in my experience where there is these heat gulf between the way the west understand Chinese history and the way the Chinese do.
Jason Cook
biggest, not heat
Gabriel Reyes
Oh, nice eloquent argument fellow american. Surely not a proxy.
Lincoln Martinez
Even contemporary Brits recognized that the scale of pillaging and destruction done by the British and French armies was huge.
Josiah Morgan
I lived there for a while.
Leo Rogers
Still shit argument. You aren't saying anything. Just that we perceive history different.
Yeah, the war was unjust and all. But no one can make the argument that the first opium war created such a dent in chinese population.
The battles were mostly naval engagements and coastal battles. Battles never exceeded the 10K in each side.
you mean your entire life, until you moved to the US?
Lincoln Murphy
why is opium war unjust?
Nathaniel Collins
No, I don't even know what your point is unless you think it's too unbelievable that someone who isn't Chinese could open up a history book and read about what happened at the Old Summer Palace.
Robert Gutierrez
Because the Brits fought for their right to sell drugs in another country.
Each country has the right to regulate whatever they want in their country. It's their country and they have the authority to do it.
The Brits said fuck that and forced the Chinese to continue the Opium trade.
Asher Cruz
UK won so UK sold optium Opium broke society, safety, ecnomy. Many Chinese died.
That means UK killed many Chinese by war and drug.
Austin Barnes
The stipulations in the resultant treaties aren't defensible.
Landon Jackson
I'm just busting your balls.
But anyways, where are you also trying to get?
A quick search, showed me that the palace was destroyed in the second war, well into the population dent.
That a simple palace that was destroyed is in some way a sign that the Brits killed millions and millions leading to dent in the chinese population that high? Please, that's ridiculous.
The Brits burned the white house and we don't make shit up about how our population collapsed after that.
Benjamin Johnson
>citation needed
The Taiping rebellion had a religious origin. The Qing were trying to subjugate a certain religious group, and that is when the rebellion started.
There is no evidence that opium had anything to do with the rebellion, and actually Hong, the leader of the taiping rebellion banned opium in his territory, Which I imagine is the reason why france and the UK sided with the Qing and not the taiping. Funny that right?
William Adams
Well as far as death count... China has a cyclical history of famines and civil wars. Im only saying this period of Chinese history is really important to the Chinese-- in a bad way. I think it's this series of wars with the western powers (in which the Chinese are not faultless, btw), and the Japanese war, that Chinese really feel wounded their country, their culture and history. People in the west don't look past Mao, really.
Liam Perry
And even if you could make the case that Opium had a significant effect to deteriorate Chinese society, it still not the fault of the brits.
You can't claim war crimes in a war that isn't taking place.
If that's the case, we can say the Japanese are responsible for the Chinese civil war, the Communist coming to power (which can actually be argued), Mao, and all the people that died in his reign.
Ryan Gray
So, it's all the fault of the Japs. The eternal jap strikes again. 200 million killed and counting.
Jacob Brooks
UK and France sold weapons to both Qing and Taiping. UK and France cheered civil war itself.
Christian Cook
>UK and France sold weapons to both Qing and Taiping. >UK and France cheered civil war itself. That still doesn't make them responsible. Every single war has had outside countries selling weapons to both sides.
America sold weapons to both sides in WWI, at least at the start. The French sold weapons to the americans in the revolution.
Nonetheless those wars and the subsequent atrocities are the fault of the directly involved. Pointing the finger at some outside country just for selling weapons is simply avoiding taking responsibility for your own actions.
James Cook
Soviet and communists were enemies for Japan during WW2. Soviet and communists were allys for USA during WW2.
Kayden Smith
DRUGS MUST FLOW
Sebastian Lee
I don't know what you are trying to say. Yes, we were allies. There was a temporary truce between the west and the communist to extirpate the fascist threat from the world.
The main ally of the US in China were the nationalist. Not the communists. The Nationalist did 99% of the fighting. China is today a communist nation because the Japanese war destroyed the nationalists. After the war, the nationalists were significantly weakened, while the communists could now fight a fair fight against them. Which led to Mao taking power. He himself mentioned that it was thanks to the japs that the communist managed to take power.
So, thanks Japan. NOT!
Liam Nelson
I don't want to blame UK's civilians I blame drug merchant and economic colonists and banks.
Jordan King
Communists are same to globalists, leftists, racemixing shit. That's why USA stopped supporting KMT after WW2.
Blake Thomas
Blaming them of what? and with what basis? You have none. Your entire argument isn't actually an argument. You are making huge assumptions.
Was the Opium trade detrimental to Chinese society? Yes, surely.
But it isn't as bad as you are trying to make it. No country has destroyed itself due to drug trade.
China is not a newbie when it comes to rebellion, civil war, famine, etc.
Putting the blame on a conflict that took place 8 years before the massive rebellion is ridiculous.
Grayson Anderson
But it didn't. The US continued to supply arms to the KMT until the very end when they were defeated. Then It protected the chinese nationalists in Taiwan until today.
>Globalist, leftists The US is none of those things.
Race Mixing can be argued, but that is a result of our demographics, nothing can be done about it.
The Japs had never have to deal with other races, so you can't talk shit.
Landon Lee
Also, way to dodge the bullet, and put the blame on others.
The fall of the KMT and the nationalists fighting the japanese invasion is widely covered and discussed.
Thanks for allowing mao to win. Jap.
Logan James
Blaming them of genocide then at least 70 million died.
Adrian Taylor
By your logic and the argument that you have been trying to push.
Those 70 million are the fault of the Japanese.
Josiah Foster
Mao killed around the same amount. Mao is your fault and so is those deaths. How does it feel?
Thomas Martin
I don't blame UK's civilian. I blame drug merchants and economic colonists and banks.
Sebastian Howard
Now, you are just repeating yourself.
Still your government is a direct successor to the Japanese warlords that sacked China. That means that your country is a responsible for the death of around 100 million people in China.
Hudson Jenkins
...
David Ramirez
USA and communists were ally. Japan was enemy.
If Japan cheered communists and communists killed millions, Japan should have some responsibility. But the responsibility is less than drug merchants because it's easily understood that drug will break society and cause conflict.
Caleb Brooks
I'm getting tired. You just love making huge assumptions and connecting dots that aren't even close.
The USA and USSR were allies in the sense that they were fighting the same enemy. Even suggesting that the US was pro-communist is the most retarded shit I heard in my life.
THe US supported the KMT in china, and aided them during the entire war. The US didn't aid the Chinese communists and was never friends with them.
Japan wasn't trying to fight communism in Asia. Stop trying to revise history by putting japan as the anti-communist force in Asia. Your entire objectives were empire building. Of which you failed miserably.
The US never "cheered" the communists.
Japan in the other hand destroyed the major opposition to the Chinese communists, the KMT. After the War, they couldn't pose a real fight to the communists, and the desperate situation in china only emboldened the Communist stand. All thanks to the Japanese campaign.
The US tried to help the KMT but the country was inevitably going to turn red after the war.
Also, no. Stop saying that European drug traders had anything to do with the taiping rebellion, because they didn't. At least bring any source or shred of evidence and maybe then we can at least discuss it. but right now, you are simply making stupid suggestions and assumptions.
Blake Stewart
It's called UK Qing War while French was there. Fuck the anglo for this revisionism graph
Nathan White
>But the responsibility is less than drug merchants because it's easily understood that drug will break society and cause conflict. Wow. Have you ever taken a history class in your life? This shit wouldn't fly there. You can't fucking make logical jumps like that without backing what you are saying.
You are literally saying that the indirect effect of selling drugs to a country had a more devastating effect than a literal and direct war and national massacre that took place for 8 entire years.
You are saying that drug traders had a bigger effect in China than a literal invasion by japan.
The whole reason why the world needed to intervene was your doing. The US wasn't about to start a WW because of you. To fix your mess.
Japan fought a battle against Russia to gain Siberia. To expand it's territory. Not because you were anti-communist or you were fighting for freedom or shit. You simply wanted more land.
"Manchu was stronger than KMT" No, I think you mean the Japanese army was stronger than KMT. Don't change the labels. It's important to understand that JAPAN was the one to weaken the KMT.
>In addition, at the end of WW2, Soviet invaded Manchu and Karafuto so Japan fought. Yes, the USSR attacked because you were sitting ducks. You couldn't possibly stand a chance against eh soviets, and they wanted you land. They did the same thing you tried to do to others. How does it feel?
>If USA wanted to save China from communists, USA must have fought against Soviet. Supporting KMT is only for money. No, that wouldn't have been necessary. After the war. The soviets agreed to return all the conquered territory to china. The communists did get stronger from soviet protection, but the soviets nor the Americans were going to directly get involved in the Chinese civil war. They both aided each side. But by the end of the Sino-japanese war. The KMT was too weak to fight, while the communists had emerged relatively unscathed.
It was your fault and your fault alone that the communist beat the KMT.
Juan Richardson
I thought what you say was about Mao's Great Leap. If you mean KMT-PRC War, weapon merchent was more responsible than drug merchant. However, weapon merchants have a llttle chance to save lives but drug merchants only break society and cause conflict.
Ayden Reyes
Clearly not enough.
Evan Brooks
No, I don't mean that.
Your logic is that the involvement of Britain the Opium war made it responsible for the subsequent events in the taiping rebellion (no proof or sources provided whatsoever to back this up).
So, following your logic. It was the fault of the Japs that Chinese communist won the war, and Mao took power, and then it's the Japs fault for every person that died under Mao rule.
That's your logic. Have at it.
Ryan Walker
Why would you bother, seriously?
Leo King
USA more and more encourage Japan to fight against China now. I want to spread that Japan didn't want to fight but wanted to save Chinese.
OP can be the proof because Chinese population increased while Japan entered in China.
Oliver Mitchell
>Japanese impregnated so many chinese women that it had a demographic effect
Joshua Gutierrez
Stop dumb shit Tobirama kun
Carter Sanders
To be short, the proposal that Opium War underestimated is true.
Nolan Smith
>what was the taiping rebellion
Dumb nip
Chase Cox
UK sold opium in Guangdong. Lin Zexu went to Guangdong to ban opium. UK got angry then war occured. UK won so UK sold opium more and more.
Society especially around Guangdong was broken. Many conflict occured. Hong Xiuquan lived in Guangdong. Hong Xiuquan decided to cause war. However, Hong Xiuquan didn't blame UK because UK sold him weapons and Hong Xiuquan believed God but Qing didn't.