Are coding bootcamps legit? Most jobs seem to require a degree in Computer Science or something related

Are coding bootcamps legit? Most jobs seem to require a degree in Computer Science or something related.

Can you really become a Developer with no degree and just self-taught skills?

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Short answer: no. Long answer: Hiring managers usually want to see CS degree on resume, but no one gets a development job without having already developed something concrete. If you can learn how to code and be good enough to create a nice looking, basic project, then you'll be able to learn the rest. A bootcamp may help start that process, but it certainly won't be close to completing it.

IT recruiter here. No. They teach you the skills and SHOULD count, but hiring managers tend to be older and demand traditional experience. Considering the price they are not even remotely worth it.

Obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.
The vast majority of universities have shit CS programs. They teach you very basic and not widely used technologies. The ones that do are usually pretty expensive and have a good amount of criteria to even get in them.

The jobs that turn people away because they don't have a degree are usually the ones that'll offer visas to any H1B code monkey.
I didn't graduate and my dev career is just fine.

hey recent CS grad looking for jobs, I have applied to few jobs but have not got any reply back. Could you please give me some tips for resume? and how long does it usually take for recruiters to get back?

get into mathematics and take it seriously and then adopt mathematical concepts to a syntax like C++ and you should be good if you do it in that order you should be fine i guess.

Dev & recruiter here. You can become a developer with self taught skills. Go on PluralSight & Code Schools, eat as many trainings as you can.
Going to developers Meetups will also help make a lot of contacts in the dev community, and you will most likely learn more things this way than in coding bootcamps.

However, it will most likely take you 1-2 years of constant self learning to have a decent level at programming.

I'm a senior software engineer (backend) who regularly conducts interviews of other software engineers. I would definitely pass someone who had only done a coding boot camp but they would have to be an extraordinary candidate. I'm quite biased towards candidates having a degree because studying a traditional, 4-year degree tends to give candidates a more solid understanding of cs theory which these bootcamps largely ignore

Yes OP just go learn how to code enough jobs around. What do you want to learn btw?

Also, a few tips if you want to find a job:
- don't just focus on being a rockstart or say that you know the latest framework. What most people are looking for are "boring" developpers who know how to manage risk and technical debt, as well as raising a team's maturity in development processes.
- Be active on github. Contribute to projects that you find cool or use yourself. Also, try to make a project of your own, and have it as close as what you consider state of the art. Recruiters will look at this and it will tell a lot more about your skills than a resume.
- Don't leave aside your personal activities. No one is interested in a dev who doesn't talk and doesn't do anything else in their life.

Hmmm. Make sure your resume is in Summary-Experience-Education-Skills format, include an environment section for each job, and upload it to CareerBuilder, Monster, Dice, and Indeed. The trick is to let recruiters come to you. Be open to contract work, especially early on in your career. Bad benefits but the way is usually higher than perm work

Also, sauce/moar?

ok got it. tyvm!

Python.org let's you code on their front page, complete with labs. You can teach yourself but it's tough and only gets tougher. Degree, certifications, and experience is the only way to go to guarantee success. Don't be surprised, you're literally creating infrastructure-- just like a bridge, no one is going to build a bridge just based off bridge boot camp... And if they do, no one is hirin their ass.

The problem with CS programs is that some of them go for the more theoretical aspect, not really the coding part.And in this case, you have graduates that don't know how to code.Sure, they might be good at complexity theory but shit at actually developing some software. You can become a dev without getting a degree, sure, but that degree helps to get you, as an applicant, classified as qualified .From my experience, it only helps at first, because you'll be tested before you get the job, and at that stage, if you don't know how to code, your piece of paper won't matter.

Are you guys serious?
1) If you apply to a real software development without a four year degree (even worse if you put down bootcamp), you'd never get called back and/or get called in just to get laughed at.

2) CS jobs are some of the worst jobs for the future. It was amazing back when you actually had to be smart to graduate (decades ago) and back before CS became a default major.

3) Think about it. Who are the "people" that major in CS? Little kids that don't know what to do but like to play games all day long so "eh, I guess CS is kind of like gaming". Or you have "people" that think CS is the easy way to get a good job with high salary. There are very few actual passionate people that actually want to learn CS.

4) The supply of CS majors is simply ridiculous compared to the demand. You have graduating CS majors, you have cheap labor from Indian, etc. Companies are allowed to be picky. They'll choose the best of the best and because they can choose, they can give lower salaries. Ultimately bring down the salary for all CS-related jobs.

5) Look at any freshmen CS class. Years ago it was packed full. Students had to line up outside the classroom to listen to the teacher.

6) You simply have too much of these kids that think CS is just an easy major (and it is, it's been dumbed down a lot, even more so than other majors), for easy salary. The amount of excrement that comes out from colleges and Indian are enormous.

late troll is late

cute post
>bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/database-administrators.htm

Bollocks pal.

Let me quess you have a Msc in 'Bussiness' ?

the theory is the hard part. Compleity theory is crucial to writing fast, clean code

Ask any software developer and ask if there's a disproportional amount of Indians in their company or even software work that is outsourced. I'll wait.

Same comment on top. And yes, the truth hurts.

>database-administrators
We're talking about software developers/engineers, son.

Nope. I'm a software engineer/developer in a fairly big company. I have the experience in these things. I'm very positive any other software developer can confirm with me.

Hahaha Indians do make delicious curry. But seriously you really have this problem in the US?

This post illustrates what's wrong with this field.

The traditional 4-year school doesn't teach you what you know to develop and maintain enterprise software. You spend 4 years to waste more than half of that on irrelevant electives that don't impact you or your career at all.

Meanwhile the same dev who spent 4 years learning modern technologies and attending seminars is already miles ahead of the degree-mill idiot who pissed his time away.

CS Degrees are largely irrelevant. Stop the cancer.

Not the guy you're quoting but yes.

Any moderate sized company is either employing a large amount of Indians in office or has a satellite office in India churning out garbage code.
I've worked with passionate, experienced people who wrote good, maintainable, and clean code. They're wonderful people to work with who know what they're doing. All the way down to performance tweaking and documentation.

Then you have Indians who operate like code-mills, churning out barely functional code that's poorly maintained, if maintainable at all, has no documentation whatsoever, and can only be read by the person who wrote it because even a community college dropout would write it better.

The company I work for now has an office in India and employs a stupidly large amount of Indians. We have 10,000 line Oracle Procedures, we're on a 10+ year old version of ExtJS and our code is so badly documented that we're constantly calling fucking customers to explain to us how our own product works.
If you can find a company that doesn't have a large amount of Indians and isn't a startup, hop on it.

Is Computer and Information Systems a good major?

Programmerfag here, 19 years exp:

If you can't afford college and are saving up, do what you can to get experience, I guess boot camp is cool but also join a hackerspace and make contacts, work on open-source, do all sorts of things to show that when you had a choice between honing your skills and goofing off, you chose to hone your skills. But try to get into college.

If you're just asking this question as an excuse not to go to college then you probably should take a good look at yourself.

Not an excuse, but yeah paying for it is a bitch.

Is this major worth it? I can do 3 years at a CC and the last at a Uni with it, saving a bit of money.

Degrees provide the minimum qualifications. An applicant that has a degree has shown that they have at least past some sort of filtering and qualification. That's not to say there are some actual passionate brilliant guys that don't go to college, but you'd have to give a Google-level interview (very in-depth/tricky/etc) to determine if they're capable. And not to mention they are extremely rare.

And think about it this way. There are hundreds of graduating CS students, along with a huge amount of cheap labor from India. Are you seriously going to even think about an applicant (that doesn't have a degree) that may or may not be good (and 99.999% chance will be ****)? You have so many other applicants you can look at. Are you going to give a Google-level interview every time? A college degree is just another way to pass the minimum filter.

Also, colleges don't teach you about the relevant stuff you need for work. That's what tech schools do. Colleges/universities teach you how to THINK. Or at least they should, these days colleges have been dumbed down and it's simply a business.

>CS Degrees are largely irrelevant.

No, I would really have trouble hiring someone without a degree unless they showed a lot of experience in the form of opportunities taken when they didn't have to. There's a certain discipline to going through a lot of theoretical work like discrete structures and computability theory and all that - I want someone who can learn something even if it won't make them immediate money, and be able to work problems out that might not interest them, and in detail, because that will inevitably happen. Autodidacticism on top of a CS degree shows excellent initiative. For someone with self-study without some outside direction and requirements on their curriculum, I start to question if they only studied themselves because they just wanted to know enough to get by and wanted to skip out on what they didn't immediately think was important.

FWIW,
Google just published something (internal email) about the incoming intern class today. Totals added up to 100% of students with degrees.

I'd go full CS if you could. A lot of "information systems" stuff is the more basic stuff that's like, the computer systems at a business where computers aren't their main thing. There are so many thinking going on with VR, AI, machine learning - you want to be a part of that, not payroll or hooking up network cables. People say "go big or go home" but here it's "go big or it'll go to India". Don't let this discourage you, just go ahead and do it.

I went to a bootcamp and teach at it now. It's something I strongly believe in and we're based out of portland, OR and accept students internationally. It's definitly not a bad way to get a job, we teach you C#, JavaScript and ASP.NET included. These are skills high in demand. We also offer a job placement director that helps get you a job. So far our success has been 100% with getting people jobs after graduating our program as well as MY exam passed (Microsoft course)

samefag

Bullshit

Nice dubs

how to self teach java?

Whos the chick

Java is really good. I recommend learning basics for starters

HTML
CSS3
Then PHP, JavaScript, Python, C# with ASP.NET then Java.

It's a progressive learning and helps understand syntax.

Also Java is really similar to C#. I recommend lynda.com..fairly easy to follow along and definitly worth the investment. Just keep all projects up on your Github for future employers to see skills

Create your own company and hire devs.

Kek at hiring mujibars for dev jobs. Like they say you get what you pay for. Do you really think a good developer is going to take a pay cut? Fuck no. They know what they're worth.

Does the bootcamp cover algorithms/data structures or creating applications? I would assume some bootcamps are too time limited to get into algos/DS.

Wow didn't know that it was that bad. In Western Europe we have that issue with Eastern/southern European countries. But they produce kinda 'sjit' therefore its a 1 time experiment but never again.

Thing is, the non-technical managers don't give a ****. All they see are two software developers. One requires a higher pay, the other requires a lower pay. They take the lower pay (Indian).
Don't like it? Apply to another company, and another, and another, and another, etc.

Because of this, the remaining competent developers have to work more to fix problems made by low quality hires, AND faced with salary cuts or less chances of salary raises.

Also, software development itself is a poor career for long-term. Think about it. Why would they pay you (when you're ~40 years old, tired, pricey, and your skills are not up-to-date), when they can pay a recent graduate that knows the recent hot language/technology AND pay much less for them than someone like you? Ultimately, you're going to be laid off when you're 40-50 years old (ESPECIALLY when all you know is Java/Android/etc) unless you specialize or become a technical manager. Basically, software developers EXTREMELY replaceable, more so than other fields.

But isn't programming/IT a relatively young field?

Age discrimination might not be as bad in the future, as all these kids are going into it

Age discrimination will simply get even worse in the future. There are more fresh kids popping out of college than ever (especially CS), eagerly and happily replacing you for a lower pay. The competition is already insane as is,

more supply of workers -> more competition -> companies can get choosy -> companies are able to pay lower wages (first choice of applicants doesn't accept because of low wage? OK, second choice out of hundreds.)

Don't get me wrong, it's a good field (for NOW) if you're already in for some years. But it's nowhere where it was decades ago. And it's simply going downhill very quickly. I don't see a future as a software developer.

I was actually thinking of moving to the states since salaries sky rocket in US. Coder easily earns what 140 k a year

I majored in that and e-commerce. Unfortunately, it can only teach you so much, you are better off with certifications related to IT and internships if that's your goal. The most I got out of it was terminology and sdlc. In hindsight, i should have done cs, but then again, I smoked too much weed back in college to would have done well in cs.

I do software testing now and learned most of what I know online through YouTube, stuff from zed Shaw, and books.

I jad a friend go to something called jobcorps or workcorps which is a training program which taught him the latest html and some c# stuff while he was awau, so i guess thats kinda the same thing as op was asking about. It was a great success.

What do you think of Accounting? I'm currently majoring in that. Should I just switch to CS?

Easily 140k? I don't know about that. For that, you'd probably need a Ph.D with 20+ years experience, working at Silicon Valley, I bet.

> more basic stuff that's like, the computer systems at a business where computers aren't their main thing

Exactly that. And that basic stuff is not enough.

Depends on where you look. Dallas would be less than LA or NYC. Cost of living and competition drive the market.

You might be interested in IT auditing then. I was thinking of double majoring in that (ISYS / acct) , but thankfully realized that I hate accounting and didn't go much further that route. Check job listing in your area for it auditing positions and your college if they offer a special program for students that double in that major.

I would say go for cs, but in the end, you need to have that interest otherwise what's the point? I started learning programming because it pays fucking great in the bay area and I get way better work/life freedom/balance.

I'm on mobile so my replies are a bit slow. Try not to trip on the trolls

Could I get software dev jobs with a CIS major?

Going the CS route would be a little more because I'd have to get a dorm + pay for 2 years at a uni. Also I'm not that great at high level math and whatever else. I also haven't really programmed before so it's all intimidating.

It is all about adaptabiliy. Learning doesn't stop when you graduate. To stay competitive, you have to be constantly learning so you don't fall behind. Companies usually offer year round training programs, libraries, seminars, etc to keep their current employees relevant. Even if you are older, they value what you can do rather than your age. Also, middle aged people tend to be more reliable and stable in these fields than fresh college kids.

> Could I get software dev jobs with a CIS major?

Less likely if all you do is get a cis major. The classmates I had that came out successful or at least with a related job to ISYS had internships and learned some programming on their own. The rest struggled to get a basic level of it/support roles.

> Going the CS route would be a little more because I'd have to get a dorm + pay for 2 years at a uni. Also I'm not that great at high level math and whatever else. I also haven't really programmed before so it's all intimidating

Don't need to be a wizard at math so don't let that intimidate you. For what it's worth, I have developer friends that are embarrassingly terrible at calculating tips.

I know you see all that shit as cost now, but you gotta start looking at it as an investment. Pretty hard to do in uni, but even harder when you are paying rent, bills, and trying to study when you have a full time job.

Everything has some level of intimidation, just make sure your goals outweigh that apprehension.

Some of them are, very much so. Just look for ones that actually help you get a job afterwards and has deals with companies. If you put 100% effort into the bootcamp, you'll easily score +$100k job.

So close to quints...

> Learning doesn't stop when you graduate

Sage advice

One last thing I would say before this shit 404s, look for intro to Java, python android, swift, boot camp open Houses, whatever on meetup. Spend an hour or so networking, asking questions about what got them into programming and why they enjoy it. If you find out it isn't something you wanna do, you'll usually leave with free food or some company swag. Goodluck

if you cant afford college, just save your money up and move to europe. college is free there. 1000s of americans are doing this because its cheaper to live in europe than to try and attempt to go to school in america

america is a fucking joke

buddy of mine was self taught went to college but dropped out because of financial reasons.. he currently makes over 100k a year doing coding.

Some are

Yes but not through bootcamps alone

Jokes mostly tend to be amusing and fun tho...